No concrete evidence in China vs the US government owning up to the fact that they're intentionally doing genocide with Covid in the camps and saying "stop me, I dare you lol".
Exact same picture.
There is plenty of evidence that shady shit is going on in these camps. Sure the American media might blow it up to run the whole "china bad" narrative, but shady shit's still going on
I dont know how this forum gives china a free pass just because the US is worse.
China side of the coin is that they are dealing with radical islamists, and attempting to dissuade their radicalism with re-education and getting them to a point where they can contribute to the Chinese society
So best case scenario, the kind of shit Canada and Australia pulled with their natives. Cool cool cool.
I don't want to claim I know what's going on, but the language of what I quoted sounds like just the kind of imperial "we know what's good for them" bullshit every country in the world pulls when they're dealing with a politically inconvenient minority population. We'll put the savages in special schools so they will mend their barbarian ways.
In an ideal world, what do you suggest we do with religious extremists who wish to harm innocent people? Just kill them, I guess? Because education and re-integration sounds too much like "putting the savages in special schools so they will mend their barbarian ways?"
Again, I don't live there and am critically ignorant on Chinese internal politics. I can be pretty sure that they aren't eating Uyghuir babies, but at the same time, I'm also kind of enclined to take claims that boil down to "this entire population group is made up of terrorists" as convenient scapegoating. If their own language describing the situation cannot be distinguished from that of, say, India about muslems in Kashmir, should I give them the benefit of the doubt because they have "socialist" in their country name?
“this entire population group is made up of terrorists”
Who said that? Anyone? Ever?
No. No one ever said that of Uighurs in China. Not on this site, not on Reddit, not in China. No human person alive has ever said that.
They're operating under the assumption that the "Millions of Uyghurs in camps" claim is correct and not a complete and utter lie. There are a couple dozen facilities about the size of a medium prison or large elementary school. If they're filled like schools, that's 15,000 people at most. If they're filled like American prisons, 50,000.
From the BBC's tour of one, I'd say it's the former. They don't seem packed in like sardines. Meanwhile we have 2.6 million people locked up. Most of them for non-violent offenses or completely made up charges. All being used for slave labor and with a complete disenfranchisement and minimal educational opportunity.
Didn't China officially release footage of "vocational centres for deradicalisation"?
Yeah, and that's exactly what it is. It's to stop radical terrorists.
Which situation is more ethical to you:
- Education.
- Drone strikes on entire cities "just to make sure we get them all"
Yes neither is ideal especially with the exact way China are doing that education, but it's a fuck of a lot better than the alternative.
okay but when I see prison camps for 'radical muslims' my first thought isn't "well all right then, carry on.". the CIA are lying liars who lie, and will say whatever best suits their interests at the moment, but that is, on rare occasion, the truth. find one mediocre source, and I'd believe the PRC was pulling this shit.
its just important to remember that the americans are doing it too. there are no good states here.
"Actually nothing good exists. All existing things are bad and wrong. In order to be good, it has to not exist."
-utopianists
Like determining if China is good or bad would be a binary decision between absolute good/absolute bad.
It is a bit of a simple analysis of the situation, especially coming from a leftist.No I get it, I'm just saying that supporting China is kinda important if you don't want to come off as a bougie utopian Marxist.
They're a materialist worker's state that's actually trying to be as non-imperial as possible. They exist in the real world, so they will have to solve real problems and solving a problem is never as pretty as the diagram for solving the problem.
This was more of a dig at utopianism than anything, critical support for China is fine. Just don't go around saying "WELL ACTUALLY THEY'RE IMPERIALIST TOO" because it accomplishes nothing but allowing sinophobia to fester and shutting down discussion on why they're doing what they're doing.
The conversation about China's economic policy can be interesting. Especially discussing if the market liberalisation to strafe crippling sanctions was a good plan. If their self-reliance model works in the modern world. How their foreign investment model differes from neo-liberal imperialist models. Etc.
This specific situation just seems to be overplayed and blown out of proportion.
Sorry I worded it badly, I :100-com: % agree with you, China is mostly good, is not engaging in imperialism(just ie listen to what Varoufakis said concerning concessions made by China buying parts of infrastructure in Greece, compared to western investors - like guaranteeing standing contracts with workers and such) .
I have issues with some things, like concerning the workplace.With regards to opening up for foreign investment while keeping control of those formed enterprises and thereof resulting intellectual property and technology.
If you think about it, it was a very smart way to industrialize the country in record speed and increase living conditions all around in unseen proportions.Honestly, it is pretty marvelous, and any leftist should at the least critically support the Chinese.
Absolutely. China is a miraculous state. They learned from all the USSRs mistakes and not only persisted in a hostile world, but thrived. I feel that their position also allowed for the continuation of socialist/communist experiments in the region as well. Vietnam, Laos, and the DPRK would have been sanctioned to death without China being a buffer state between them and the imperialists.
I legit think that China is in the best position to actually rid the world of capitalism. Or at least passively support places that decide to try locally. They won't sanction revolutionary states like everyone else.
Yes, and because they were not too on the nose about progressing communism, the west misread that as less commitment to the cause and in turn thought they were on the same side as the CCP since Deng Xiaoping, when in fact greedy capitalist investment was tricked into handing over tech and resources to China to build them up to a status that they can stand on their own and can if they want to rival the US.
I don't think they really want to do that though(not yet at least), I think their point is to show through their undeniable advances for their peoples how a socialist(aspiring communist) society can be vastly superior in providing for its people and how we have it completely ass backwards on basically anything when it comes to how we organise society.
They're doing a bang up job so far haha. I don't think there's much internal dissent right now, and one of the greatest threats to the CCP would be allowing western educated citizens into the politiboro. Even that is starting to seem less dangerous now. With the west in disarray and students studying overseas rushing back to China as they watch the West make a perfect example of why capitalism can not be allowed to exist.
Amazing how if you generally try to make things better for the people instead of milking them for every last penny, they might actually like you, funny how that works, right?
This is also why the issues created around Xinjiang and HK are drilled so hard by western governments and media, because China cannot be portrayed in an overall good light or it would make it obvious that liberal democracy is not the end all be all. And they fear that very much. For the last 30 years they were always able to say look we tried this communism thing in Russia, didn't work out, was horrible.But now all of a sudden a rising China appears on the horizon, eradicating poverty and hunger in a population of 1.5 billion, while the US has tens of millions who don't even know how to come up with enough money for adequate food for them and their families. In Germany, a population of about 80 million, we have almost 3 million children growing up in poverty.
It is absurd and everything is on its head, our world is completely wrong.
China, by virtue of existing, serves as a light with which to reveal the contradictions of capitalism. They're literally serving as "the shining city of the hill" that America claims it is.
Yes, it is always nice to have a productive discussion I have to say. :sankara-salute:
Also helps to organise some thoughts here and there.
the ccp is bad and the world would be better off without it. the american empire is bad and the world would be better off without it. id be happy to see both burn; to see so many people liberated.
I agree with you when you say you dont trust american media to be objective. Even removing sources paid by the american government, I'm still convinced shady stuff is going on.
There are many first hand accounts of Uighur people who have escaped china and are living in other countries, and these interviews taken by independent journalists.
For example, Vice had a nice documentary on it. Vice is a leftist media outlet right? Inb4 vice isnt real news
Like I agree with you, about how america is using Uighurs as an excuse to criticize china, but dont you think something's still going on?
This is my main gripe as well. I'm open to evidence but every time I ask I get either something that is proven bullshit or nothing at all.
Jeez why so rude, I'm at work, I'll give you a compilation later if you want. I know posting at work is praxis and all, but I really cant go full on redditor and hunt down sources rn.
Right right I'm open to more information as well, ffs we're all on chapo for the same reason. And yeah, we can all agree american media is cancer
https://youtu.be/v7AYyUqrMuQ
This is the vice video I was talking about, theres an interview in there too.
I just said you were rude because some of the things you wrote were offputting and I'm a sensitive boy uwu
Can I ask you to do something for me?
Please watch this video without reading the description until the end, then come back and open the spoiler.
spoiler
Ok, we’ve now established that the US will quite comfortably use atrocity propaganda to shape public opinion against its geopolitical rivals.
Let’s look for evidence of that happening here.
We’d look for things like inconsistencies in testimony.
We’d expect to see a US-controlled apparatus for disseminating these stories .
We’d expect to see non-US controlled international organisations investigating and reporting no concern .
Now obviously we can’t debunk every single testimony ( although that doesn’t stop CGTN from trying. But after a certain point, it begins to wear a bit thin.
Let me put it this way: if you gave me the funding of a US intelligence agency, I guarantee you that I could come up with a few dozen people willing to testify to being abducted by aliens, given autism by vaccines, or turned gay by frogs. I’m not saying witness testimonies aren’t important—they are! But if the only testimonies are coming from people on the CIA’s payroll, things begin looking pretty fishy.
Vice is a leftist media outlet right? Inb4 vice isnt real news
I would treat vice with the same amount of scrutiny as any corporate media entity such as NYT.
Here is the ownership breakdown of Vice: Shane Smith (20%) The Walt Disney Company (16%) A&E Networks (20%) TPG Capital (44%) Soros Fund Management (10%) James Murdoch (minority stake)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vice_Media
Also of note is that one of Vice's co-founders is gavin mcinnes (the founder of Proud Boys) and Bill Maher is an exec producer.
Which is not to say it's not real news but rather it's not "leftist" in the sense that it seriously intends to challenge power/capital.
Switching out the words for new, better words is a healthy chunk of how propaganda and manufacturing consent work.
It not "slaves", its "share croppers." Not "servant," but "gig economy."
The most upsetting thing to me is that the American brain refuses to accept China as a real place where real people live that you can go to. You can visit Xinjiang. It's not locked down or anything. I've been to Kashgar before and it's lovely. But everyone talks in these weird theoreticals about a place they act like they can't go to or talk to people in. A lot of Uyghur people have trouble speaking Mandarin, but are very nice regardless. Islam is practised openly and vibrantly in beautiful mosques, and the internet is full of new Eid videos at the moment. This takes seconds to verify, yet is talked about in mystical terms.
Reminds me of the no-go zones in Sweden that totally exist you guys
Good fucking god that's a bad one. I've genuinely never heard "they weren't concentration camps" before. I've heard "I didn't know that" or "yeah that sucked" or even "they deserved it" but what kind of brain worms do you need to deny they were concentration camps?
I'm sorry, but we in Europe got you beat. We just let them drown in the Mediteranean.
Really? I've heard it pretty much every time someone says Japanese American internment was bad. People seem to be under the impression that concentration camp = gas chambers
"Your Honor, I would like to make it clear that I did not murder him, I merely intentionally discontinued his life!"
"Oh well why didn't you say so earlier? You're free to go!"
Well you see the supreme court ruled that was totally different and fine so that makes it ok
something something honk kong protest something something the fight of our generation...
BUT the BLM should be sqashed with boots as they are terrorist who don't understand of much they are free, the should learn it by loosing their right.
Years ago my highschool English teacher had us read "Night" by Elie Weisel and "Farewell to Manzanaar" by Jeanne Wakatsuki Houston and asked us to do a dual book report comparing and contrasting the two. You can guess which one of those was the one she added to the curriculum. Here's some takeaways I still have to this day about it.
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God bless my English teacher. Years later my sister went on a rant about how she'd gone through her entire education and never heard about the internment camps until George Fucking Takei of all goddamn people talked about it. I tried to think why that was dropped between when she and I went to school and realized I only know about them from my english teacher. If history covered them, we brushed over it pretty quick.
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I think it is fair to argue that as fucked up as the Japanese internment camps were, they were not on the same tier as the holocaust. They were fucking concentration camps done out of a combination of either outright xenophobia or greed since huge amounts of land from Japanese Americans was seized in the process....but at the very least they represented something lesser then a campaign of outright mass industrial ethnic cleansing. They were still an evil...but that argument cuts both ways when it comes to comparing our situation to china. I don't know how bad the situation really is in China...but it seems to me like there should be a high bar to tossing around holocaust rhetoric and I find it a bit too easy and uncomfortable the way (as chomsky put it) Americans seem able to judge China by its actions and ourselves by our intentions.
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the Uighur reeducation “camps” literally let them go home on the evenings and weekends
can we just watch both burn? china might need some help, but the americans are doing a damn fine job.
i grew up with two abusive parents. taking shelter with one against the other DID NOT MAKE MY CHILDHOOD HAPPY. I don't see this as substantially different from geopolitics, stop sucking CCP dick.
and it depends on how it happens. it very much could be good for the people. oppressive governments are not good for people. the ccp are not cuba. they are not vietnam. they don't even pretend to have their peoples best interest at heart. fuck vampiric oligarch shitheads, no matter where they might dwell.
