I couldn’t give less of a fuck about business owners
This is a dumb take.
The petite bourgeoisie are the allies of working people right now. The international bourgeoisie have been given non-stop cash injections since March to keep their business afloat. Small businesses are getting wiped out at an unbelievable rate, and they are at risk of losing their business, their income, their housing, etc. A coalition of workers and petite bourgeoisie, led by the workers, to protect communities instead of banks will be more successful.
Small business owners exploit workers. They extract surplus to generate profit. That surplus is then reinvested to generate more profit. Although, by the nature of their size and reach, small business owners reinvest the surplus in their community in search of profit.
All these small business that are closing will be replaced by condos and restaurants owned by banking conglomerates. The surplus will no long stay in the community, it will get yeeted to a bank account in the Virgin Islands.
no, I disagree. the petit-bourgeoisie is proletenizing really fucking fast this year and consequently radicalizing in both directions, towards social democracy and fascism. it's this medium term where our interests diverge most. this isn't support of any kind, it's just an alliance on shared demands. we have immediate interests that are aligned and, long-term, capitalism will make proles of all of them.
our immediate interests are the same. that will stop being true the second they aren't threatened. but for a very short while, until the covid crisis passes, small businesses are being wiped out and are desperate for relief. if we shy from tactical choices, we can't take power. I'm curious about arguments why it's a bad tactical decision but an immediate-term alliance is very much on the table.
no, I'm not talking about trying to recruit them to our side. the farthest they'd be willing to go is social democracy, in any case - look at the DSA. I'm saying our organizations have allies in petit-bourgeois organizations because they're trying to lobby governments to do the same things. conversely, if we don't work together on these shared aims, they'll win benefits for themselves, at our expense. this is only true for a very short period of time.
that's the nice thing about these kinds of focused, shared goals. you don't have to trust them, you can rely on theory and analysis of the material conditions to predict their behavior -- what they're predisposed to do -- then use those predilections to our benefit. at no point do you need to believe that they want anything but to come for your throat. but they want their class position to survive more.
I feel like you are fundamentally misunderstanding my point.
I'm not saying the petite bourgeoisie are good. I'm saying they are suffering similar issues to the working class, and there is room to coalition with them to protect communities from the ravages of financial imperialism.
The struggle for rent deferment and ending utility cut-offs in my city is a coalition which includes small business owners because they are at risk. Should we kill this coalition out of some abstract morality. That is not solidarity with their workers lmao, their workers will benefit from rent deferral and freezes on utilities shut-offs...
If I tried to explain this take to homeless congress I've been working with, they'd laugh me out of the room.
"Yeah, I know we have powerful political allies working on our terms to get people housing and public utilities. But they hire workers, so good luck finding a tent and a place cops won't harass you."
The largest ally is a coalition of music shops and concert halls. Given the current situation, the only music venue which will be able to reopen post-pandemic is the major stadium, which only hosts big ticket events.
Indie musicians organized on their own to do benefit concerts to keep the music venues open. Through them and radicals in the music scene, we've been able to get their support in advocating for rent and utility deferments to continue.
It's not as if the petit bourgeoisie collapsing will mean the end of the accelerating exploitation of workers. They're just going to replaced by more entrenched capital vehicles like franchises and megacorporations. It's pretty clear to me which of these is the more manageable adversary. The enemy of your enemy is useful.
Tbf tho, this is just the natural centralization of production coming from the accumulation of capital to large business from small. The petite bougiouse will be much more likely to support collectivizing or even regulating large faceless corporations that they dont own/work for. This could easily tranform them into a much more revolutionary class, so this trend may set us up for more favorable possibilities in the future.
I'm more interested in addressing the immediate needs of the people.
Right now, communists in this country are not connected to masses in a meaningful way. They tend to be trapped in communities of political conscious "activists." We need to struggle and win concessions for the masses, or else they will never trust us.
This moment is an opportunity to demonstrate that we will work towards a better world for exploited people. It is important to struggle and win. Winning concessions requires a coalition of classes right now because the workers are not organized.
Cities are much more willing to consider rent deferral when they realize the businesses (i.e. tax revenue) that will be saved by it. Cities do not give a shit if some worker becomes homeless and dies. My city has an income tax rate of 2%. A low income worker is maybe sending them a couple hundred a year. Why risk upsetting a major landlords and utility companies over that?
I do not want to squander an alliance with the petite bourgeoisie just because they might one day be proletarianized.
I kind of agree with you but it's more of a hypothetical alliance than a real one right at this moment. after all, the petit-bourgeoisie are looking for relief right now by petitioning city governments to give them money, usually at the expense of the lower classes. if we had a party and could collectively negotiate, we could argue coherently that cash for the poorest is the best way to keep small businesses afloat, but we don't actually have the capacity to make that demand, so this alliance remains purely hypothetical.
it's good to keep on eye on these possibilities, though, because they'll keep popping up (long-term well-being of the petit-bourgeoisie lays in an alliance with the proletariat, not their bigger cousins, who look for any excuse to gobble up the small fish), but also because the petit-bourgeoisie will choose in the medium-term between social democracy and fascism and we must encourage them to pick the former, lest we aid our existential enemies by deepening their support from their primary class.
the petit-bourgeoisie are looking for relief right now by petitioning city governments to give them money, usually at the expense of the lower classes
That is much different than my experiences. There is currently a coalition between smaller businesses and progressive organizations to pressure the city to maintain rent deferment and prevent utility shut-offs.
These are not "hypothetical alliances." These are conversations and actions that can be taken in literally any city right now. The petite bourgeoisie and workers are suffering many of the same problems right now.
We do not need a centralized party to understand who may play a progressive role in a given struggle, which is the primary goal of organizing. A centralized party is necessary to carry these progressive struggles to a higher stage.
Democracy and centralization are not contradictory.
However, democracy does not mean free association. If a democratic decision is made, it should be binding on all member involved. If you have a democratic organization in which members can go against the democratic rule, it's not a democracy.
It is difficult to scale up an organization without this type of centralization. It leads to splinter orgs and factions.
good points, I don't have any disagreements, except that city governments are fairly limited in what aid they can provide and an alliance like this should be trying to pressure states and the national government.
This is a dumb take.
The petite bourgeoisie are the allies of working people right now. The international bourgeoisie have been given non-stop cash injections since March to keep their business afloat. Small businesses are getting wiped out at an unbelievable rate, and they are at risk of losing their business, their income, their housing, etc. A coalition of workers and petite bourgeoisie, led by the workers, to protect communities instead of banks will be more successful.
Small business owners exploit workers. They extract surplus to generate profit. That surplus is then reinvested to generate more profit. Although, by the nature of their size and reach, small business owners reinvest the surplus in their community in search of profit.
All these small business that are closing will be replaced by condos and restaurants owned by banking conglomerates. The surplus will no long stay in the community, it will get yeeted to a bank account in the Virgin Islands.
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no, I disagree. the petit-bourgeoisie is proletenizing really fucking fast this year and consequently radicalizing in both directions, towards social democracy and fascism. it's this medium term where our interests diverge most. this isn't support of any kind, it's just an alliance on shared demands. we have immediate interests that are aligned and, long-term, capitalism will make proles of all of them.
deleted by creator
never said otherwise.
deleted by creator
our immediate interests are the same. that will stop being true the second they aren't threatened. but for a very short while, until the covid crisis passes, small businesses are being wiped out and are desperate for relief. if we shy from tactical choices, we can't take power. I'm curious about arguments why it's a bad tactical decision but an immediate-term alliance is very much on the table.
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no, I'm not talking about trying to recruit them to our side. the farthest they'd be willing to go is social democracy, in any case - look at the DSA. I'm saying our organizations have allies in petit-bourgeois organizations because they're trying to lobby governments to do the same things. conversely, if we don't work together on these shared aims, they'll win benefits for themselves, at our expense. this is only true for a very short period of time.
deleted by creator
that's the nice thing about these kinds of focused, shared goals. you don't have to trust them, you can rely on theory and analysis of the material conditions to predict their behavior -- what they're predisposed to do -- then use those predilections to our benefit. at no point do you need to believe that they want anything but to come for your throat. but they want their class position to survive more.
I feel like you are fundamentally misunderstanding my point.
I'm not saying the petite bourgeoisie are good. I'm saying they are suffering similar issues to the working class, and there is room to coalition with them to protect communities from the ravages of financial imperialism.
The struggle for rent deferment and ending utility cut-offs in my city is a coalition which includes small business owners because they are at risk. Should we kill this coalition out of some abstract morality. That is not solidarity with their workers lmao, their workers will benefit from rent deferral and freezes on utilities shut-offs...
deleted by creator
God damn lol
If I tried to explain this take to homeless congress I've been working with, they'd laugh me out of the room.
"Yeah, I know we have powerful political allies working on our terms to get people housing and public utilities. But they hire workers, so good luck finding a tent and a place cops won't harass you."
deleted by creator
The largest ally is a coalition of music shops and concert halls. Given the current situation, the only music venue which will be able to reopen post-pandemic is the major stadium, which only hosts big ticket events.
Indie musicians organized on their own to do benefit concerts to keep the music venues open. Through them and radicals in the music scene, we've been able to get their support in advocating for rent and utility deferments to continue.
It's not as if the petit bourgeoisie collapsing will mean the end of the accelerating exploitation of workers. They're just going to replaced by more entrenched capital vehicles like franchises and megacorporations. It's pretty clear to me which of these is the more manageable adversary. The enemy of your enemy is useful.
Why do you guys use the word 'simp'? Can't you be civilized?
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I still hear you saying the word.
deleted by creator
You may be right, I'll concede the point
Tbf tho, this is just the natural centralization of production coming from the accumulation of capital to large business from small. The petite bougiouse will be much more likely to support collectivizing or even regulating large faceless corporations that they dont own/work for. This could easily tranform them into a much more revolutionary class, so this trend may set us up for more favorable possibilities in the future.
I'm more interested in addressing the immediate needs of the people.
Right now, communists in this country are not connected to masses in a meaningful way. They tend to be trapped in communities of political conscious "activists." We need to struggle and win concessions for the masses, or else they will never trust us.
This moment is an opportunity to demonstrate that we will work towards a better world for exploited people. It is important to struggle and win. Winning concessions requires a coalition of classes right now because the workers are not organized.
Cities are much more willing to consider rent deferral when they realize the businesses (i.e. tax revenue) that will be saved by it. Cities do not give a shit if some worker becomes homeless and dies. My city has an income tax rate of 2%. A low income worker is maybe sending them a couple hundred a year. Why risk upsetting a major landlords and utility companies over that?
I do not want to squander an alliance with the petite bourgeoisie just because they might one day be proletarianized.
I kind of agree with you but it's more of a hypothetical alliance than a real one right at this moment. after all, the petit-bourgeoisie are looking for relief right now by petitioning city governments to give them money, usually at the expense of the lower classes. if we had a party and could collectively negotiate, we could argue coherently that cash for the poorest is the best way to keep small businesses afloat, but we don't actually have the capacity to make that demand, so this alliance remains purely hypothetical.
it's good to keep on eye on these possibilities, though, because they'll keep popping up (long-term well-being of the petit-bourgeoisie lays in an alliance with the proletariat, not their bigger cousins, who look for any excuse to gobble up the small fish), but also because the petit-bourgeoisie will choose in the medium-term between social democracy and fascism and we must encourage them to pick the former, lest we aid our existential enemies by deepening their support from their primary class.
That is much different than my experiences. There is currently a coalition between smaller businesses and progressive organizations to pressure the city to maintain rent deferment and prevent utility shut-offs.
These are not "hypothetical alliances." These are conversations and actions that can be taken in literally any city right now. The petite bourgeoisie and workers are suffering many of the same problems right now.
We do not need a centralized party to understand who may play a progressive role in a given struggle, which is the primary goal of organizing. A centralized party is necessary to carry these progressive struggles to a higher stage.
Why a centralized party? Isn't good to many of them work together as a democracy?
Democracy and centralization are not contradictory.
However, democracy does not mean free association. If a democratic decision is made, it should be binding on all member involved. If you have a democratic organization in which members can go against the democratic rule, it's not a democracy.
It is difficult to scale up an organization without this type of centralization. It leads to splinter orgs and factions.
good points, I don't have any disagreements, except that city governments are fairly limited in what aid they can provide and an alliance like this should be trying to pressure states and the national government.