im sorry... but there are biological differences between sexes? That’s why we differentiate gender from sex no? Sports are about biological athletic competition, so the playing field should be as even as possible...
The reason this is a right-wing talking point is because it casts trans women as villains out to steal sports scholarships from innocent little girls, and implies that they are just pretending to be women to win at sports. Additionally it casts leftists as lunatics who don't believe in biological sex. It also makes rational people like you think maybe the transphobes have a point.
In reality this is a total non-issue. Maybe there's a debate to be had about trans women, sex segregated sports in general, etc. but that's not the point here. The point is that Tulsi is choosing to put forward this bill--which is a right-wing talking point and nothing else--as a lame duck during a fucking pandemic, to appeal to the transphobic, reactionary base she picked up on Tucker Carlson. That's transphobic.
why yes, i am a gigachad trans woman with 50 college scholarships and 8 olympic gold medals. my arms are bulging at a whopping 10in, im a heavyweight at 110 pounds, and im ready to MURDER
Trans women largely appear to be on an equal level as cis women when it comes to athletics.
Do you have any sources on this? Why would their biological advantages completely disappear?
If trans women really did have such an advantage we would expect them to dominate top-level play.
That depends on how many compete at the same level, how much support there is for them, and how many strive to compete at the highest level. The biological differences exist, and there is no way around this issue. It isn't a real problem yet, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be unfair competition and probably hurt the trans community more than it helps them. It is a shitty topic, but is there any way to allow trans women into female athletic competition without hurting the sport? There is a reason why competitions are separated by sex.
Even though it isn't a real problem (outside of right-wing brains), acting as if the differences wouldn't exist doesn't seem to be helpful either.
Trans women typically have less masculinized bodies to begin with, and almost universally report a decrease in muscle mass after at least a year on HRT. Barring them from women's sports is barring them from sports in general.
"Biological differences" exist in degrees. If you ban AMAB women who transitioned as adults, do you then ban AMAB women who blocked their male puberty? Do you ban XY women with pAIS? Do you ban XY women with cAIS? Very quickly, the act of policing trans women's bodies extends to policing all women's bodies.
Trans women typically have less masculinized bodies to begin with, and almost universally report a decrease in muscle mass after at least a year on HRT.
Yes, they are in a bad spot where male and female sports both are problematic.
Barring them from women’s sports is barring them from sports in general.
Only competitively, but yes, it sucks and I don't have a good solution to offer either.
If you ban AMAB women who transitioned as adults, do you then ban AMAB women who blocked their male puberty? Do you ban XY women with pAIS? Do you ban XY women with cAIS?
That is what I was getting at when asking if there is any way to allow them into female competitions, without hurting the women participating and facing a lot hatred for being successful. You can try to come up with some abstract rules of evaluating trans athletes' bodies, but that just sounds horrible. I don't see any good solutions for this :(
Competitive sports are inevitably problematic. Every which way you go, you run into quandaries; there are no good solutions that can maintain the "fairness" of it. We can, however, promote human rights and oppose discrimination.
I think the best way to be inclusive of trans women in sports is to allow them to certify themselves as women after being on hormones for X number (5?) of years. And have this be an honor system instead of subjecting all female athletes to extra scrutiny.
The more we learn about biology, the less sense we can see in the ideal of a "fair competition" that we're so attached to. It was an illusion all along.
Do you have any sources on this? Why would their biological advantages completely disappear?
Because these advantages are driven basically 99% by testosterone and the strength advantage it gives. The olympics require one to have been several years on HRT and have their testosterone in female ranges before they would allow them to compete officially. Other sports have similar requirements.
And I can tell you that T changes a lot. Before transition I was average strength. After transition, even though I'm in the best shape I've ever been, and train a-fucking-lot I still have guys that are half my weight being completely able to pin me down. According to my fitbit device, my Vo2Max is within the top 25% of users, which might seem like a lot, but I also train 10-15 hours a week, sometimes more. The more advanced girls at my poledancing studios are usually much stronger and have more endurance than I do. In the martial arts that I participate, my advantage comes from being taller than a lot of the other girls, which gives me some extra range, but when I fight someone my own size its all down to skill and luck.
I understand where you are coming from with this, and it is a fair point in a vacuum. But unfortunately that is the point of it, to find something "reasonable" as a entry point for transphobic nonsense. A sitting fucking house rep doesn't actually give a shit about women's lacrosse, this is just a cudgel to beat trans people over the head with.
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im sorry... but there are biological differences between sexes? That’s why we differentiate gender from sex no? Sports are about biological athletic competition, so the playing field should be as even as possible...
im not trying to be transphobic :deeper-sadness:
I gotchu comrade.
The reason this is a right-wing talking point is because it casts trans women as villains out to steal sports scholarships from innocent little girls, and implies that they are just pretending to be women to win at sports. Additionally it casts leftists as lunatics who don't believe in biological sex. It also makes rational people like you think maybe the transphobes have a point.
In reality this is a total non-issue. Maybe there's a debate to be had about trans women, sex segregated sports in general, etc. but that's not the point here. The point is that Tulsi is choosing to put forward this bill--which is a right-wing talking point and nothing else--as a lame duck during a fucking pandemic, to appeal to the transphobic, reactionary base she picked up on Tucker Carlson. That's transphobic.
why yes, i am a gigachad trans woman with 50 college scholarships and 8 olympic gold medals. my arms are bulging at a whopping 10in, im a heavyweight at 110 pounds, and im ready to MURDER
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Do you have any sources on this? Why would their biological advantages completely disappear?
That depends on how many compete at the same level, how much support there is for them, and how many strive to compete at the highest level. The biological differences exist, and there is no way around this issue. It isn't a real problem yet, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be unfair competition and probably hurt the trans community more than it helps them. It is a shitty topic, but is there any way to allow trans women into female athletic competition without hurting the sport? There is a reason why competitions are separated by sex.
Even though it isn't a real problem (outside of right-wing brains), acting as if the differences wouldn't exist doesn't seem to be helpful either.
Trans women typically have less masculinized bodies to begin with, and almost universally report a decrease in muscle mass after at least a year on HRT. Barring them from women's sports is barring them from sports in general.
"Biological differences" exist in degrees. If you ban AMAB women who transitioned as adults, do you then ban AMAB women who blocked their male puberty? Do you ban XY women with pAIS? Do you ban XY women with cAIS? Very quickly, the act of policing trans women's bodies extends to policing all women's bodies.
Yes, they are in a bad spot where male and female sports both are problematic.
Only competitively, but yes, it sucks and I don't have a good solution to offer either.
That is what I was getting at when asking if there is any way to allow them into female competitions, without hurting the women participating and facing a lot hatred for being successful. You can try to come up with some abstract rules of evaluating trans athletes' bodies, but that just sounds horrible. I don't see any good solutions for this :(
Competitive sports are inevitably problematic. Every which way you go, you run into quandaries; there are no good solutions that can maintain the "fairness" of it. We can, however, promote human rights and oppose discrimination.
I think the best way to be inclusive of trans women in sports is to allow them to certify themselves as women after being on hormones for X number (5?) of years. And have this be an honor system instead of subjecting all female athletes to extra scrutiny.
Could you test for testosterone level? Or is that also a grey area?
It is a gray area, especially considering how men have injected testosterone as a form of doping.
See my other post.
The more we learn about biology, the less sense we can see in the ideal of a "fair competition" that we're so attached to. It was an illusion all along.
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Because these advantages are driven basically 99% by testosterone and the strength advantage it gives. The olympics require one to have been several years on HRT and have their testosterone in female ranges before they would allow them to compete officially. Other sports have similar requirements.
And I can tell you that T changes a lot. Before transition I was average strength. After transition, even though I'm in the best shape I've ever been, and train a-fucking-lot I still have guys that are half my weight being completely able to pin me down. According to my fitbit device, my Vo2Max is within the top 25% of users, which might seem like a lot, but I also train 10-15 hours a week, sometimes more. The more advanced girls at my poledancing studios are usually much stronger and have more endurance than I do. In the martial arts that I participate, my advantage comes from being taller than a lot of the other girls, which gives me some extra range, but when I fight someone my own size its all down to skill and luck.
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Nah honestly it's good that you asked this because this was something that caught me too before I knew much about trans issues
I understand where you are coming from with this, and it is a fair point in a vacuum. But unfortunately that is the point of it, to find something "reasonable" as a entry point for transphobic nonsense. A sitting fucking house rep doesn't actually give a shit about women's lacrosse, this is just a cudgel to beat trans people over the head with.
This.
It's introducing the concept of the sex police* through the sector of sports.
*And not the good kind. Sorry, @VolcelPolice .
We appreciate the clarification, however there is only one exception to ACAB :dorner:
Do you play the sport with your genitalia?
On average asian men are shorter and smaller than black (african american anyway) men. Shouldn't we segregate sports by race?
the difference between men and women is much larger than the differences between two men.
https://quillette.com/2019/04/05/sex-differences-gender-and-competitive-sport/
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