I think that it is fundamentally wrong to make a massive decision for another person without any input or consent from them. That is what it is to create a child. You are just deciding for another person that they must now accept the responsibilities of existing for the next 80 years or so, and that comes with the added detail that you'll make them feel bad about it if they want to opt out at any point before that.
It's just wrong. Fundamentally, without any context about my own feelings on raising children, it is the morally wrong thing to do to another person. If you want to raise kids, go adopt a kid.
Well you haven't established that consent is necessary for every action. For instance, I can take my neighbors trash to the curb if they are about to miss the garbage truck. Almost all would consider this an act of kindness. So is it possible giving something life is an act of kindness that does not require consent?
Taking someone's trash out for them is not a massive decision about their life the way forcing someone to exist for (ideally) 80 years or so is.
Furthermore, it is an action almost certain not to cause any suffering whatsoever, while the act of creating a child is 100% certain to cause suffering to that child.
But even if you are correct about this idea, do you really want it to rise to prominence? Do you think the world would be a better place if people thought this idea? I don't mean to sound dramatic, but do you really want humanity to go gently into that good night?
A famous piece that touches on antinatalism deals with just that! httpss://philosophynow.org/issues/45/The_Last_Messiah It's short and an enjoyable read imo. If you check it out I'd be interested to hear what ya think.
Pretty much my feelings on the topic. That said, I have a hard time blaming people for having kids. There are a million factors that contribute to people having them that are impossible to boil down to "you're selfish".
it still does boil down to selfishness, even if they dont see it that way. at the end of the day, if they thought about it at all, they decided that their desire to procreate is more valuable than the autonomy of the child they would be creating that way . thats just selfish however you look at it
i dont hate people for having kids of course. in the grand scheme of bad things you can do, it's pretty mild. it's still on the list of bad things you can do, though
I guess I see selfishness as a trait you can only attribute to people who understand the consequences of what they're doing and choose to do it anyways. For that reason, I don't call people "selfish" who have kids because they lack access to contraception or because they sincerely believe that bringing more kids into the world is legitimately good and that they're doing the right thing, whether that be due to ignorance, religious belief, societal norms, or necessity for their own survival. The "desire to procreate" isn't always literally just the desire to create a new person in your own image and I think it's really reductive to say it is.
I still think it's wrong regardless of who is doing it, but I would only call it selfish when it's the intentional plan of educated people who have their material needs met and understand that whatever happiness they're creating is likely to be equalled if not outweighed by suffering. I realize that's a load of caveats, but that's how I see it.
I think that it is fundamentally wrong to make a massive decision for another person without any input or consent from them. That is what it is to create a child. You are just deciding for another person that they must now accept the responsibilities of existing for the next 80 years or so, and that comes with the added detail that you'll make them feel bad about it if they want to opt out at any point before that.
It's just wrong. Fundamentally, without any context about my own feelings on raising children, it is the morally wrong thing to do to another person. If you want to raise kids, go adopt a kid.
Well you haven't established that consent is necessary for every action. For instance, I can take my neighbors trash to the curb if they are about to miss the garbage truck. Almost all would consider this an act of kindness. So is it possible giving something life is an act of kindness that does not require consent?
Taking someone's trash out for them is not a massive decision about their life the way forcing someone to exist for (ideally) 80 years or so is.
Furthermore, it is an action almost certain not to cause any suffering whatsoever, while the act of creating a child is 100% certain to cause suffering to that child.
Okay fine.
But even if you are correct about this idea, do you really want it to rise to prominence? Do you think the world would be a better place if people thought this idea? I don't mean to sound dramatic, but do you really want humanity to go gently into that good night?
completely 100% irrelevant to everything, because that would never happen.
A famous piece that touches on antinatalism deals with just that! httpss://philosophynow.org/issues/45/The_Last_Messiah It's short and an enjoyable read imo. If you check it out I'd be interested to hear what ya think.
Arguably you're talking about something like implied consent in that situation, which wouldn't necessarily translate to having a child.
Pretty much my feelings on the topic. That said, I have a hard time blaming people for having kids. There are a million factors that contribute to people having them that are impossible to boil down to "you're selfish".
it still does boil down to selfishness, even if they dont see it that way. at the end of the day, if they thought about it at all, they decided that their desire to procreate is more valuable than the autonomy of the child they would be creating that way . thats just selfish however you look at it
i dont hate people for having kids of course. in the grand scheme of bad things you can do, it's pretty mild. it's still on the list of bad things you can do, though
I guess I see selfishness as a trait you can only attribute to people who understand the consequences of what they're doing and choose to do it anyways. For that reason, I don't call people "selfish" who have kids because they lack access to contraception or because they sincerely believe that bringing more kids into the world is legitimately good and that they're doing the right thing, whether that be due to ignorance, religious belief, societal norms, or necessity for their own survival. The "desire to procreate" isn't always literally just the desire to create a new person in your own image and I think it's really reductive to say it is.
I still think it's wrong regardless of who is doing it, but I would only call it selfish when it's the intentional plan of educated people who have their material needs met and understand that whatever happiness they're creating is likely to be equalled if not outweighed by suffering. I realize that's a load of caveats, but that's how I see it.