I can't believe I gave these people money.

  • PhaseFour [he/him]
    ·
    edit-2
    4 years ago

    how to pay for it

    The real criticism is the fact that the DSA created years of propaganda, and told everyone we don't need to ask this question.

    So long as the bourgeoisie run society, we cannot afford M4A. No threshold number of Squad members in Congress which will change this fact.

    • Nounverb [none/use name]
      ·
      4 years ago

      ^^^

      Which is the exact kind of point the FTV people were making that every fuckin lib saw fit to ignore. This includes the Twitch grifters, TMR, the Twitter libs like Ben Dixon, the Breadtubers etc.

      Stop giving these losers your money, they don't want to win and have given up already

      • PhaseFour [he/him]
        ·
        edit-2
        4 years ago

        YES! It was weird getting called a Lib for caring about Force the Vote. The entire point was to expose the fact that the strategy and tactics of Democrats in Congress can not & will not change. There is no influence on the inside. The only time concessions are offered is during revolutionary ruptures.

        It is not a coincidence that the bourgeoisie pumped record money into coopting the anti-racist uprising last year. If it developed an independent, national proletarian consciousness, this nation would have been shaken to its core. Instead, the uprisings only had the Democratic Party as a national political force. It was a bumpy ride for the bourgeoisie, but they made it another year.

        Any moment spent legitimizing the Democratic Party delays revolutionary ruptures. "The Squad" legitimized the Party, Force the Vote delegitimized the Party.

      • Mardoniush [she/her]
        ·
        4 years ago

        The USA doesn't get that most continental governments in Europe had Communists in their coalitions at various points, sometimes as the largest partner. There was a real risk that if the capitalists did not cave they'd find themselves against the wall rapidly.

      • anthm17 [he/him]
        hexagon
        ·
        4 years ago

        You fuckers are pushing a narrative that you know will never lead to M4A, sabotaging any and all attempts to use power, and then you expect to be hailed as anything but obvious wreckers.

    • anthm17 [he/him]
      hexagon
      ·
      4 years ago

      mods taking away the downvote button means dog shit lies like this don't get downvoted.

      There is sending in the bill you fucking lying hack.

      • PhaseFour [he/him]
        ·
        edit-2
        4 years ago

        I have no idea what you are saying here.

        Which lie are you talking about?

        DSA created years of propaganda, and told everyone we don’t need to ask this question.

        I have seen this propaganda with my own eyes for years.

        So long as the bourgeoisie run society, we cannot afford M4A.

        I don't think this is a lie. The people cannot afford M4A. It must come as a concession from the bourgeoisie in the medical industry & the bourgeois state.

        No threshold number of Squad members in Congress which will change this fact.

        Again, this is true.

        The bourgeoisie own enough politicians to block progress on M4A if they want.

        If the Squad somehow got control of the House, Senate, & Presidency, and passed M4A against the will of the bourgeoisie (this will never happen) the bourgeoisie would retaliate by other means. This can take any number of forms,: withholding the circulation of Capital, shutting down hospitals, funding right-wing death squads, etc.

                • PhaseFour [he/him]
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  4 years ago

                  Yeah... I can't believe I'm getting called a right-wing lying piece of shit for saying Pelosi, Schumer, and Biden are not passing a tax hike.

                  Saying "taxes must be raised" is not the same as having a plan to pay for something.

                • anthm17 [he/him]
                  hexagon
                  ·
                  4 years ago

                  We aren't talking past each other, they are spewing lies.

                  The taxes are in the bill. The idea that paying for it hasn't been considered is an easily disproven lie. it's a complete fabrication.

                  So no I'm not talking past anyone I'm explicitly calling another poster a liar for being a liar.

                    • anthm17 [he/him]
                      hexagon
                      ·
                      4 years ago

                      Why are you willing to give a free pass to someone spewing neoliberal lies?

                      • PhaseFour [he/him]
                        ·
                        4 years ago

                        God, people are so fucking disingenuous here.

                        "We should raise taxes on the wealthy" is not a serious plan to pay for M4A. It is useful propaganda. But it is not a plan. Socialists have organized around "we should raise taxes on the wealthy" for decades, and we are no where closer to M4A. Every single major impediment still exists.

                        • anthm17 [he/him]
                          hexagon
                          ·
                          4 years ago

                          It's in the fucking bill.

                          You're just spewing right wing talking points uncritically at this point.

                          • PhaseFour [he/him]
                            ·
                            4 years ago

                            And how is that bill getting passed?

                            You are calling me a Liberal while pretending a bill in Congress is worth the paper it is written on. There is no plan whatsoever to get the bourgeoisie to raise their taxes.

                            • anthm17 [he/him]
                              hexagon
                              ·
                              4 years ago

                              No, I'm calling you a disingenuous lying fuck for saying they haven't thought about how to pay for it.

                              It's just a right wing lie. That's all it is. You want to argue that it won't happen that's fine, but to say they haven't tried is a complete and total lie.

                              • PhaseFour [he/him]
                                ·
                                4 years ago

                                The question of "how do you get the bourgeoisie to raise their taxes?" is a serious aspect of "how are you going to pay for it?" that no one wants to consider.

                                A document saying "socialism now!" is not a serious plan for socialism. A document saying "higher taxes on the rich!" is not a serious plan for M4A.

                                • sharedburdens [she/her, comrade/them]
                                  ·
                                  edit-2
                                  4 years ago

                                  "socialism is when the rich pay taxes" mentality is also lacking in long term vision (both in terms of understanding history and what the motivations are for the current people in power).

                                  This whole FTV thing feels like social democrats being mad that the rate of profit has decayed to the point where it's not going to be viable for the US to buy off the people at home with healthcare by imperializing the world.

                                  The petrodollar is on its way out, the price of oil went negative last year and that doesn't bode well for americans who want to just continue printing money and rely on the constant demand for oil purchases to keep inflation down.

                                  • PhaseFour [he/him]
                                    ·
                                    edit-2
                                    4 years ago

                                    I think there's an aspect of FTV you are missing. Many want to heighten the contradictions within the Democratic Party to demonstrate its limitations.

                                    I agree with everything else.

                                    • sharedburdens [she/her, comrade/them]
                                      ·
                                      4 years ago

                                      That's entirely fair, I think it's a good thing to expose these institutions for how unwilling they are to represent the people that they purport to.

                                  • PhaseFour [he/him]
                                    ·
                                    edit-2
                                    4 years ago

                                    This is not cynicism. I don't know how anyone can be cynical after the show-of-force the proletariat demonstrated last summer.

                                    I am deeply cynical of the Democratic Party. I don't expect concessions until the anger we saw last summer is sharpened into a political weapon. The two tasks for communists is:

                                    1. Demonstrate national bourgeois institutions are illegitimate.
                                    2. Build the base of support within you community.
                                    • anthm17 [he/him]
                                      hexagon
                                      ·
                                      4 years ago

                                      This is not cynicism.

                                      It's shitty cynical bullshit you use to advocate for nothing.

                                      I don’t know how anyone can be cynical after the show-of-force the proletariat demonstrated last summer

                                      Oh you aren't calling them riots yet? haven't quite started spewing those right wing lies yet?

                                      • PhaseFour [he/him]
                                        ·
                                        edit-2
                                        4 years ago

                                        If you want to continue to lie to the People and yourself - as if you have real plan to win concessions for working people - be my guest. I'm not that arrogant. And I do not want to lie to the People.

                                        We need socialism. The national strategy and tactics need to hashed out by a united communist movement. Until that arises, I will continue to build a base of support in my community.

                                        • anthm17 [he/him]
                                          hexagon
                                          ·
                                          4 years ago

                                          You aren't building socialism you're just a cynical wrecker.

                                          I’m not that arrogant.

                                          You are.

                                          Just a cynical asshole who will reject everything and anything as being pie in the sky and insist that we need socialism before we can do anything.