Mind you, I don't think we should trust or support liberals either, and of course we should be opposed to any laws they might push to strengthen the police state, or any other new laws that could otherwise harm us. However, I think the attack against the right that's likely coming might be a strategically good thing for the left, for the following reasons:
-
Just my opinion, but support for free speech should probably end with people who are organizing so they can murder me, you, and the people we care deeply about. None of these people would support our free speech or even basic human rights if they ever got full control over the government.
-
Corporations never cared about free speech anyway. Those saying that social media will come after leftists next are naively ignorant of the fact that they already have and will do so in the future. It's not as if going after the right will somehow open up a new door for them as far as this goes, but at the very least, denying fascists a platform is still a good thing.
-
If the liberal establishment ever actually grew a spine and decided to confront the right using federal law enforcement (most likely FBI), the efforts towards this could help tie up resources and deflect attention away from organizing on the left.
-
Since most people in local police departments and some federal agencies are in full support of racism and/or fascism, attempts by liberals to address this would likely be a difficult battle for both law enforcement and the liberal establishment, which would benefit the left for obvious reasons.
I've seen some comments on twitter leaning towards supporting the supposed rights of Trump protestors because "free speech" and because it would somehow open the door to targeting the left. This strikes me as naive, since they would do that anyway with the tools they have, but I'd love to hear your opinions on this.
If the liberal establishment ever actually grew a spine and decided to confront the right using federal law enforcement (most likely FBI), the efforts towards this could help tie up resources and deflect attention away from organizing on the left.
Here's a historical perspective.
Between 1964-71 the FBI "grew a spine" and initiated a massive Counter Intelligence Program (or COINTEPRO) targeted against 'white hate groups' such as the KKK, American Nazi Party, and the National States Rights Party. COINTELPRO's had been used previously against communist/socialist orgs. However, this one was definitively targeted towards the far right. Archival documents reveal that the intention of the program was to "to expose, disrupt, and otherwise neutralize" the activities of the groups, "their leaders, and adherents.". And the FBI was successful to a great extent in doing just that, to the point that at one time a fifth of all registered Klansman were FBI informants.
But the exact opposite of what you predict occurred. "COINTELPRO- White Hate Groups" was shortly followed by "COINTELPRO- Black Nationalists", and "COINTELPRO- New Left". The latter programs entailed monumentally more resources, than was used to disrupt White Hate groups, being targeted against against Black and Left liberation organizations (and also far more mild orgs) which appeared to pose any sort of threat to the American State. Notably: the Black Panthers where systematically and brutally destroyed, while the Students for a Democratic Society was wrecked from the inside. Ultimately, the powers, resources, and autonomy used by the FBI to fight Fascism was dwarfed by that which was used to later attack minorities and the Left. The FBI's expansive programs to aggressively counter the right only gave them more experience, leeway, and power to aggressively counter the Left simultaneously and after.
One should recognize that as the Liberal State's interests are opposed to those of the Left; the expansion of State powers for the purported reason of fighting an organization we disagree with will never solely be targeted towards that organization. An example is that the expansions of antisemitic hate speech laws to silence Holocaust deniers (a very good thing) often has the consequence of those same laws being used to silence Left wing dissent against Israel (it's for that reason that Norman Finkelstein is a Free Speech absolutist). Similarly; any powers and resources utilized by the FBI to fight Fascism will invariably be multiplied and turned against us whenever a rising Left beings to seriously challenges that same Liberal Establishment.
Despite it's minuscule commitments in fighting far right challenges to the American State, the FBI is a net force for harm and a roadblock to any socialist revolution. As such, the Left should work to destroy it; not engage in the futile activity of trying to redirect its resources against the bad guys.
Between 1964-71 the FBI “grew a spine” and initiated a massive Counter Intelligence Program (or COINTEPRO) targeted against ‘white hate groups’ such as the KKK, American Nazi Party, and the National States Rights Party. COINTELPRO’s had been used previously against communist/socialist orgs. However, this one was definitively targeted towards the far right. Archival documents reveal that the intention of the program was to “to expose, disrupt, and otherwise neutralize” the activities of the groups, “their leaders, and adherents.”. And the FBI was successful to a great extent in doing just that, to the point that at one time a fifth of all registered Klansman were FBI informants.
I wasn't aware that this started in response to 'white hate groups'. I had assumed it was designed from the outset to target leftists and the civil rights movement, since the state saw them as a more direct threat to their power.
One should recognize that as the Liberal State’s interests are opposed to those of the Left; the expansion of State powers for the purported reason of fighting an organization we disagree with will never solely be targeted towards that organization. An example is that the expansions of antisemitic hate speech laws to silence Holocaust deniers (a very good thing) often has the consequence of those same laws being used to silence Left wing dissent against Israel (it’s for that reason that Norman Finkelstein is a Free Speech absolutist). Similarly; any powers and resources utilized by the FBI to fight Fascism will invariably be multiplied and turned against us whenever a rising Left beings to seriously challenges that same Liberal Establishment.
I am under no illusion that the state won't come after the left if they view it as a threat, and I certainly don't support any expansion of laws or law enforcement that would eventually be used against us. It does seem to me as though the focus is going to be on stopping the right, since they are a more direct threat to the liberal establishment, but you make good points about those resources being used against the left as well, and maybe it's naive on my part to assume we wouldn't be as much of a target while the focus is shifted.
No. It’s cool and good. Ignore the chuds here trying to recruit leftists.
I haven't noticed any of that here, thankfully. It's mostly just twitter where I've seen those kinds of arguments being made.
It's irrelevant what you support, what happens will happen regardless. It's good that some of these people are getting owned. But also all this "coup" shit was probably some kind of ploy that's just gonna serve to reestablish stability. Framing it as supporting what's happening vs not supporting is kinda weird, it really doesn't matter, there is gonna be a shit storm against the left if it ever comes close to power regardless of whether you support it or not and going around saying "this is bad because reasons" just makes you look like a chud. Enjoy what's happening but also bear in mind why it is happening.
Framing it as supporting what’s happening vs not supporting is kinda weird, it really doesn’t matter, there is gonna be a shit storm against the left if it ever comes close to power regardless of whether you support it or not and going around saying “this is bad because reasons” just makes you look like a chud.
Definitely agree with this. I typed this up after seeing people on twitter defend Trump and his supporters, but framing it as support for one action or another is probably not as useful as framing it in terms of a lack of support for fascists.
Commies killing fash? Good
Libs killing fash? Good
Cops killing fash? Good
Fash killing fash (but I repeat myself)? Good
i can see the humor in it, but i draw the line at the perverted freaks who identify in some sense with the powers enacting this anemic form of "justice."
conversation about what the bourgeois state oughta do to or about the fash is irrelevant. we don't have power over them. every gap toothed neo bircherite hick they execute in the public square is intended as a reminder to me, you, and your flag waving buddies that threats to the existing order will be dealt with swiftly and mercilessly.
attempts by liberals to address this would likely be a difficult battle for both law enforcement and the liberal establishment
they are just going to give them more guns and money. to liberal pundits and lawmakers, the threatening part of "fascist insurrectionists" isn't the fascist part, it's the insurrectionist. at no point is this going to result in a leftward shift of the Overton Window. if you hate America, you are already as bad as a nazi to your average NPR listener.
No don't worry the FBI agents assigned here are already drumming up support for helping cops lmfao
And finally, Twitter is terrible anyway and maybe this will result in more activity on Mastodon/Plemora.
Excellent points, and especially this one. We have platforms that allow for user ownership and control, so why aren't more people using them?
Is this about twitter??
Yes.
I mean, they were already banning left wing accounts (english Maduro, the official account of the PCTE, etc) being upset when they get it right for once would be weird. It's not like the left censorship can get worse. (Narrator voice: It got worse).
Nah, it's cool to support fascists getting fucked up. But the libs aren't going to do it, even if they say they will.
