HOT TAKE! It can't be both.
NephewAlphaBravo phrased this better than I did.
Inviting libs means inviting a constant stream of new users’ shitty takes. “Place where we constantly rehash this shit with libs” is in direct tension with “place where trans users can just chill and not have to rehash this shit”
I'm not trying to say "a good lib-to-left pipeline community means we shouldn't fight transphobia".
I'm saying we should decide if we want to clap up all Transphobia and protect our feelings, or engage with people that might only have a few brain worms and sort them out in order to grow a larger community.
Ban trenched in transphobes. Acknowledge that being transphobic is the default in 2021 and many people who identify as leftist probably have some transphobic views. Last year I didn't like neo-pronouns and I quickly had my mind changed. A few years ago I agreed with Obama when he said BLM were thugs. Is this supposed to be a community where people like me can come to learn and be radicalized?
I hate this post. I can’t downvote you and move on so I’ll explain why.
It can be both. Imagine the question: “Can this be a safe space for PoC and still be a lib to left pipeline?” you’d be literally advocating for open racism so that the libs can learn.
Similarly we don’t have to tolerate open transphobia. It’s simple. Educate people but also don’t allow open hostility and bigotry.
I hate this post. I can’t downvote you and move on so I’ll explain why.
This was my argument for why to remove downvotes :yes-comm: :mao-shining:
as a proponent of "keep downbears but make them public" i have definitely come around to just removing them
Educate people but also don’t allow open hostility and bigotry.
you can explain to transphobes all you want, but let's not pretend we're educating them. if we want a safe space, we have to come down hard on them, and that doesn't make them like us or want to listen to us. i think it's better that way
if you wanna be a lib whisperer, you have to put up with liberalism and all the reactionary elements therein, and i think our userbase has made it pretty clear that we don't want that here. we can go to twitter or something for that
There's a difference between "hasn't yet learned how to be a good ally to trans comrades" and "openly transphobic". Under no circumstances should we welcome or allow the second group, let alone to cater to them. If the first group is here in good faith, it's the responsibility of everyone, us cis posters especially, to correct their missteps and lead by example.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. I do find that sometime certain users will conflate the two
Yeah it absolutely can be both. This is a bad take. Libs can show up, see that the community is a positive safe space for trans and other marginalized communities, see that's a healthy and good thing, and change their worldview as a result.
I actually think we CANNOT have a good lib to left pipeline WITHOUT this being a safe space for trans and other marginalized communities.
Yeah this is a garbage fucking take. Embarassing that this obvious stupidpol bullshit is upvoted. "we need to sell out the marginalized to appeal to liberals" is literally the entire thesis of their community.
At this point I just want a functional community where everyone feels safe. A random website not connected to the big social media conglomerates probably won't be a lib-to-left pipeline any time soon, so if you really can't have both then it's probably better to make it a safe space for trans people.
What it really needs to do is federate with Lemmy, and then the fediverse slowly becomes the new internet. Then ChCh or something similar could become a lib-to-left pipeline.
This isnt a community though to 99% of people, this is what you do while trying to poop/get away from the lib vs conservative google algorithms
ban evasion is a bit harder on reddit, and the active user to new user/troll ration was much higher
we can do much better though
Inviting libs means inviting a constant stream of new users' shitty takes. "Place where we constantly rehash this shit with libs" is in direct tension with "place where trans users can just chill and not have to rehash this shit"
Reading it again it sounds less nuanced than I intended, but I do think that not intentionally inviting tons of libs would be best. The occasional well-meaning libs who stumble in and just have a couple stray brainworms they're happy to excise, I'm not personally thrilled with the idea of zero tolerance for them. BUT I'm also a basic ass cis dude that doesn't directly feel their impact on the atmosphere here, and I already kinda hate dumping this much of my opinion into this topic because of that.
idk shit sucks man I just want people to be comfy
It can't be both
Wrong.
Especially if other cis comrades do what they should and fucking stand up for trans comrdes so they aren't the ones having to explain it every single time.
People coming here who aren't alread leftists will harbour some reactionary views. People who are new to the Left will post unsavory things. Education and rehabilition will never happen for those people if we ban them.
It may even leave a bad taste in their mouth and turn them away from the Left. I'm not saying we should excuse their behavior, but try to correct it.
It's important for us to ask what the intention of this website is supposed to be. Is it a safe space for far-left individuals, or a place for Libs to come and slide to the left?
We shouldn't be alienating our trans comrades for the sake of this hypothetical species of lib unicorn who is totally okay with us celebrating cop deaths and talking about how great Mao is but who somehow also can't help themselves from not just thinking but posting TERF shit. If you had any good faith interest in making this site a more effective pipeline for reactionaries, "throw existing trans users under the bus" clearly wouldn't be your starting point
You do realize plenty of libs are trans inclusive and plenty of leftists are reactionary right? Reading theory doesn’t make you immune to bigotry. Look at stupidpol
Based on looking at stupidpol twice, I assure you very few people there are actually reading theory. Literally the first/top post I saw was in support of Andrew Yang, who is a Silicon Valley capitalist, and the argument was that he is closer to being a socialist than any other US politician. Their group description is laughable, because, while there is a Marxist critique of identity politics, 100% of the posts have nothing to do with Marxism.
They have theory stickied on the top. Which is more than you can say about chapo.
And no one actually reads theory. So they are like every other leftist space.
ChapoChat has a mega post that’s always stickied and has links to theory.
And your last point is what’s called “projection.”
Most leftists back in the day were transphobic, Stalin shot gay people. It's a dangerous reality we need to be aware of.
I agree to an extent, but taking this too far leaves weird fucked up ideologies to fester.
For example, imagine if someone who has shitty ideas about race is interested in universal Healthcare. If they don't reform their views on the former, any radicalization will only turn them into a Nazbol.
And frankly, I wouldn't want to hang out on a site with a bunch of Nazbols or TERFS.
since when was this supposed to be a lib to left pipeline wtf are you talking about. this is a leftie space and libs are welcome as long they are not fucking transphobes
If you want to radicalized libs, you go out and engage where the libs gather. This isn't that place, this is a Leftist community.
Lol it was supposed to be, chapotraphouse is a shitty podcast every listener grows out of at some point. Same goes for shitty ideas. Now this place is just r/socialism with extra steps
I don't think we can call ourselves leftists in any meaningful way without standing in solidarity with trans comrades. One of the things I've come to appreciate about left spaces when I first came into them was their tendency to hold fast to their values and principles and to not balk at constant advoacy of them for the sake of compromise. Radicalisation needs vigilance; otherwise, you instead end up liberalizing left communities rather than radicalising liberals.
Someone had an idea to not include certain communities in the main feed. There is no c/ommunity feel right now because everyone is subscribed to most or all of them. It might help if we fixed that.
