This is simplifying the idea a lot more than it should be. It is not only using force, but using force to suppress criticism, opposition, or segments of the population. It is a separate thing from ideology IMO (But not completely), a liberal state can absolutely be authoritarian, as we see this in practice in a lot of places. If you can be disappeared just cause you disagree with big boss' plan, then we have a problem. If you can get your life ruined cause you told a joke about dear leader to your neighbor, who turned out to be an agent to the secret police, we have a problem. If you can get arrested for watching Star Wars, we have a problem.
If you can get your life ruined cause you told a joke about dear leader to your neighbor, who turned out to be an agent to the secret police, we have a problem.
but I know of documented cases where South Koreans have been arrested and had their lives ruined for saying they admire Kim Il-sung.
And this is in no way good and it is authoritarian. My parents both have had visits by cops back in the day because of the wrong apocryphal joke about our own dictator and placed under surveillance. My grandpa had to report to the cops on a regular basis, because one of his sons lived in the West.
You should be arrested for watching Star Wars. For re-education you must watch the entirety of the Star Trek franchise and then you're free to go. It's actually not that short a sentence.
The problem with that then becomes that its a concept used to disguise alternative ways to suppress criticism or opposition, theres no equivalent "-ism" for how the west uses bourgeoise control of the media and schooling to entirely marginalize and make virtually useless leftist criticisms of the system.
Definitely agreed, and that will always be a problem, because the people who control the channels of information, also control what goes through. In the West however, it is not an outright destruction of dissenting voices, unless they cause trouble or become inconvenient. When posting here I do not fear that I will get a visit by some commissar or something. At the same time this place exists because the old sub got banned, cause it was starting to be inconvenient to the people who own and run reddit and their interests..
It came inches from that, like just change the dialogue in one single scene in Attack of the Clones, or remove it and you're left with Dooku siding with the separatists for his own reason (because the republic is impoverishing entire planets, slavery, or any other reason to oppose the republic), and then embracing the Sith during the war because, from his perspective, the Jedi are evil.
My hunch is those examples you gave are either infrequent occurrences or mischaracterizations of real instances of spying, infiltration, and foreign interference. You're using scenarios of state repression being used against petty, inconsequential acts when the reality of the situation is those organs of state repression exist to ward off the complete encirclement states like the DPRK face. They face a daily reality of other nations stopping at nothing to tumble their society over, which isn't something nations always know how to deal with effectively.
In fact, I'm usually quite suspicious of calls for more free speech or more free press in nations like the DPRK or Cuba since it's typically just a cover to allow in imperialist/corporate propaganda. Consider it, who would love to finance and direct internal opposition in the DPRK? Who would love to see the society split and their media out of public control?
And your hunch is wrong. State repression in a lot of autocratic regimes is indeed used like that. Think of the US police and how out of control and unaccountable it is? This is what happened in a lot of places with authoritarian regimes, regardless of whether they style themselves communists, fascist or else. In fact this is one of the key features of such regimes - that ideology almost doesn't matter because it is hijacked by the state apparatus.. It was never about whether these people really were of consequence or not, but about power tripping from the cops and the lower level functionaries.
This highlights the problem of runaway lack of accountability of institutions. And when your country is in danger of being infiltrated, invaded or toppled at any point, it is very easy to get such institutions, because you rely on them to protect you from this threat. In a way this is also how US letter agencies get to that point - they use an external threat to justify more and more power. Free speech and expression etc. are very natural human desires, and this is why letter agencies and corporations are using them. Its a hijacking of fundamental things that people desire, and hijaking of the dissatisfaction that these people feel when the institutions take it away.
I honestly dont have a solution to this, obviously dont have unaccountable institutions, but its easier said than done... and also don't be a besieged country, but how does that happen without becoming a bitch to capital?
This is simplifying the idea a lot more than it should be. It is not only using force, but using force to suppress criticism, opposition, or segments of the population. It is a separate thing from ideology IMO (But not completely), a liberal state can absolutely be authoritarian, as we see this in practice in a lot of places. If you can be disappeared just cause you disagree with big boss' plan, then we have a problem. If you can get your life ruined cause you told a joke about dear leader to your neighbor, who turned out to be an agent to the secret police, we have a problem. If you can get arrested for watching Star Wars, we have a problem.
The funny thing is that I can't point to an instance of this happening in North Korea (not saying it doesn't happen, I just simply don't know one way or the other), but I know of documented cases where South Koreans have been arrested and had their lives ruined for saying they admire Kim Il-sung.
And this is in no way good and it is authoritarian. My parents both have had visits by cops back in the day because of the wrong apocryphal joke about our own dictator and placed under surveillance. My grandpa had to report to the cops on a regular basis, because one of his sons lived in the West.
I can also think of several examples in Spain about our king.
You should be arrested for watching Star Wars. For re-education you must watch the entirety of the Star Trek franchise and then you're free to go. It's actually not that short a sentence.
Yo that sounds fun as fuck lmao
Rehabilitative justice is allowed to be fun!
deleted by creator
The problem with that then becomes that its a concept used to disguise alternative ways to suppress criticism or opposition, theres no equivalent "-ism" for how the west uses bourgeoise control of the media and schooling to entirely marginalize and make virtually useless leftist criticisms of the system.
Definitely agreed, and that will always be a problem, because the people who control the channels of information, also control what goes through. In the West however, it is not an outright destruction of dissenting voices, unless they cause trouble or become inconvenient. When posting here I do not fear that I will get a visit by some commissar or something. At the same time this place exists because the old sub got banned, cause it was starting to be inconvenient to the people who own and run reddit and their interests..
obligatory
Is it a bad sign that I kinda want to see Zizek's version of Star Wars?
It came inches from that, like just change the dialogue in one single scene in Attack of the Clones, or remove it and you're left with Dooku siding with the separatists for his own reason (because the republic is impoverishing entire planets, slavery, or any other reason to oppose the republic), and then embracing the Sith during the war because, from his perspective, the Jedi are evil.
the only kind of Star Wars we need, :LIB:
My hunch is those examples you gave are either infrequent occurrences or mischaracterizations of real instances of spying, infiltration, and foreign interference. You're using scenarios of state repression being used against petty, inconsequential acts when the reality of the situation is those organs of state repression exist to ward off the complete encirclement states like the DPRK face. They face a daily reality of other nations stopping at nothing to tumble their society over, which isn't something nations always know how to deal with effectively.
In fact, I'm usually quite suspicious of calls for more free speech or more free press in nations like the DPRK or Cuba since it's typically just a cover to allow in imperialist/corporate propaganda. Consider it, who would love to finance and direct internal opposition in the DPRK? Who would love to see the society split and their media out of public control?
And your hunch is wrong. State repression in a lot of autocratic regimes is indeed used like that. Think of the US police and how out of control and unaccountable it is? This is what happened in a lot of places with authoritarian regimes, regardless of whether they style themselves communists, fascist or else. In fact this is one of the key features of such regimes - that ideology almost doesn't matter because it is hijacked by the state apparatus.. It was never about whether these people really were of consequence or not, but about power tripping from the cops and the lower level functionaries.
This highlights the problem of runaway lack of accountability of institutions. And when your country is in danger of being infiltrated, invaded or toppled at any point, it is very easy to get such institutions, because you rely on them to protect you from this threat. In a way this is also how US letter agencies get to that point - they use an external threat to justify more and more power. Free speech and expression etc. are very natural human desires, and this is why letter agencies and corporations are using them. Its a hijacking of fundamental things that people desire, and hijaking of the dissatisfaction that these people feel when the institutions take it away.
I honestly dont have a solution to this, obviously dont have unaccountable institutions, but its easier said than done... and also don't be a besieged country, but how does that happen without becoming a bitch to capital?