Yeah I read the article you linked elsewhere. It’s not sexist to think vocal fry is annoying or that I don’t want it piercing my ears while at work. It can be used that way but I don’t think people here are doing that.
i once listened to a whole radio program on NPR (yeah I didn't pick it) where two guys had this exact same argument about how its awful and shit. one guy pointed out that he'd been doing it the whole time but since he was a guy it hadn't bothered anyone.
there was an awkward silence, and the arguments just came back up without acknowledging it, because libs are shit. I look forward to the more creative more intellectually rigorous bullshit excuse you'll come up with for this same phenomenon.
most men don't notice they're listening to a man with vocal fry unless its pointed out to them, often while making that same argument. the voices don't ping as annoying. ive seen it a billion times during the great vocal fry learning-what-that-word-means the libs had like a decade ago. do you really think you're special. ive heard multiple recorded examples. im telling you you only think its annoying because its associated with young women, who are supposed to be something that's inconsequential.
Or I don’t like it because I wear headphones at work and my ears are sensitive and it’s hurts sometimes. Could also be that, or maybe you’re correct, I’m just the leader of the He-Man-Woman-Hater-Club.
so its not vocal fry you hate, but literally anything that goes up to the frequencies that cis women typically hit at the high points of speaking in vocal fry? so its just the bodies of, like, whatever % of the population?
and you didn't think to maybe be pissed about the frequency response on your headphones, and how they don't handle high frequencies well?
or are we back to the problem being (mostly) cis women?
oh, wait, no, because you hate when men do it too, right? so it's clearly not just a matter of frequencies, because both cis and trans guys tend to have deeper speaking voices than cis women we assumed you might have been having a problem with earlier and....
oh hey we're back at this being a completely cultural thing with absolutely no connection to material condition! and what are the associations of vocal fry in your culture?
I’m not attacking woman. What is your issue here? That I’m not using a dialectic approach to why I don’t like high frequencies? Why jump into this struggle session?
its a big red flag for misogynistic shit, you're the one who raised it. its part of huge systemic biases and the underlying machinery of bigotry that grinds people the fuck down every fucking day. this isn't "which is the best way", this is "you're being part of so very many problems" its a diff kind of struggle session, and not jumping in to this kind would be shitty.
fuck it when I sober up I won't even respect you (collectively, to just however many billion of you aren't reading this) enough to tell you you're wrong, and we can go back to pretending that's my approval of all your fucked up shit, because I'll know you can't and won't do better and there's no point in trying to explain it to you. leave this unresponded to and I can just let you blend into the bigoted awful shitty capitalist tyranny that's just kind o f everything.
Oh spare me please. I fucking forgot I’m not allowed to voice my opinion since I’m not a targeted in anyway in society. But whatever. I’m not a good enough communist because I am a misogynist for saying vocal fry hurts my ears. Absolutely ridiculous and just keeps making me wonder why I even come to this place anymore.
its not voicing your opinion, it's the fact that you're unwilling to examine it and where it comes from, that we know it comes from this shitty place, and you're saying it sprang forth ex fucking nihilo. that you're so resistant to fucking introspection and the very idea that you might not be perfect already, that you put all this effort into preserving the ways you suck.
if you're that fucking perfect, why even fucking try? its all already done, right? just waiting for the world to fall in line and... worship you? give you whatever you think you fucking deserve just by virtue of being you? fuck, why not wear a crown while you're at it?
but again, in a few hours I won't respect you enough to think you can or would ever want to do better and I'll look at all this trying to ask someone to be better, to want a better self and a better world and just anything better than this, and think "wtf did I take?"
What? No? I’m a product of my environment and I’m only who I am because of intense pressure from forces outside of my conception, the material conditions I was raised in, etc.
great! now, are you going to argue that you're not currently in/definitely from a deeeeeeeply misogynist shit hole that uses the gender divide to extract free labor and dehumanize both classes of people to one another in that weird freaky fetishizing way that keeps reproduction going but still keeps people of differing genders alienated from one another that capitalists do so love to build on the bones of any haunted (traditional (deeply problematic in varying ways from culture to culture depending on previous system of oppression) gender hierarchies) burial ground they can get their hands on?
If it gets you to stop harassing me at this point sure. I’ll say whatever you want. You don’t have to explain stuff is such a demeaning way. I mean if you really want me to understand instead of just using me a a lightning rod for your revolutionary passions.
dude. read your responses here, from this whole conversation, back to yourself. look at the way you phrased them. look at the arguments you're making. ask yourself, be honest (you not me, dont even tell me the answer you come to) where and who you think talks like that?
Look, I’ve already told the mods to ban me and remove my comments. I won’t make another account and I’ll just fuck off like you and everyone else in this thread wants.
the request is to be better. why is THIS THING something you can't examine? something that can't have seeped in and be a product of the bullshit misogyny all around you?
did you feel this strongly yesterday? that's usually a good indicator of whether an emotion has a reactionary component. again; the answer is for you, not for me.
All I was saying that I didn’t think it was necessary to have called out people for being misogynists since they said they don’t like vocal fry. Was never trying to hate on women or get into some philosophical argument about why I am a misogynist secretly and have only ever done no-growths.
maybe, but a lot of your responses here were very reactionary, and your original arguments were inconsistent. bigotry isn't something you get up in the morning to do , and put on your "ima murder some black people" mask and... okay bad example. it's usually not that. like, nobody has wifebeating gloves (except cops), that they change into like some creepy supervillain bullshit
its little things, little jabs that people get from a thousand different directions over and over again. and the request here is to not be one of them. its your reactions that are the most worrying thing here. it's fine though. by my material measurement, this argument has cost you nothing, not even a surrendered bit of ego, and im probably gonna end up spending like a hundred dollars getting some asshole a pair of boots.
Yes and you’re drunk replies weren’t at all reactionary since you have held onto them since before yesterday. I get it too, you’re smarter than me and can find inconsistencies in my arguments. Congratulations. You are correct again and I am wrong once more.
my point at least isn't "you're hating on" it was "youre contributing to a structure of devaluation and shittiness that has poisoned your mind, and is using you to propagandize diminish and colonize others"
nobody here suspected you of having a special pair of wife beating gloves and a special cat calling whistle. that's not how this shit (usually) works. its more like viruses. this is a contact telling you "hey, um, dude? did you send me this email asking if I want to buy viagra from a nigerian prince so he can affort his dick extension?"
I don't think that's what it seems like. I've read most of the exchange and I don't think you hate women but you probably are unwilling to do a bit of self examination. As you acknowledge we do live in a sexist society and nobody is immune to their surroundings.
Like even I as someone who reads feminist theory/has experienced sexism will have moments where I instinctively find certain womanly traits annoying and I have to stop myself and question if that annoyance comes from a place of sexism or not (and honestly, sometimes it does). I AM A FEMINIST I STILL THINK I HAVE MY SEXIST MOMENTS. No one is immune from doing sexist things and we have to constantly be open to unlearning/rethinking things. Most instances of sexism are very subtle and unintentional. The important thing is willingness to listen/improve.
Also even if you find it annoying from a completely neutral place, you don't have to point it out. There are a million reasons to dislike the pod, there isn't a need to point out their voices especially if someone is telling you that it contributes to sexist dialogue around women. It's not like pointing out the voice thing is some deep or insightful thing, you're not losing anything by deleting or editing the comment.
you don’t have to point it out. There are a million reasons to dislike the pod, there isn’t a need to point out their voices especially if someone is telling you that it contributes to sexist dialogue around women.
This was what I was thinking. We all have preferences, and maybe those preferences come from a harmful place sometimes, and maybe they don't, but when one is then motivated to publicly criticize another person based on one's personal preferences that's crossing a line.
Though following this thread did bring up a question: what does good self-crit look like in this scenario? After you've recognized that a preference or belief or what-have-you is problematic, how would one reshape their thinking?
I think firstly, its important to remember that a lot of ideas are informed by the world around you and it doesn't necessarily make you a bad person just because you realized or someone has pointed out that your ideas might be associated with bigotry. If someone has, try not to make it about yourself (like even if someone isn't being super nice about it, think about why you're more concerned with how you're being criticized rather than how your words affect others. Focus on WHY you are being critized vs. how . not saying you do this but I see it a lot here
As for next steps its really hard to say because it can be different for everyone. Maybe try and think about how you dismantle capitalist poisoned ideas and apply it to other areas?
For example: Feeling less worthy because of your income. It's very normal to feel this way because in capitalist hellworld everyone around you has either explicitly or subtly reinforced ideas around money based meritocracy. Its OK to have this feeling but also recognize that it comes from a shiity and unfair world and its not some objective sentiment or one that comes from thin air. Its a constant battle and it sucks but it does get easier over time. As I learned more leftist ideas, I got better at catching myself for feeling bad about doing things that "weren't productive".
Another thing is that your sense of normalcy is completely constructed and sometimes things that are out of your control can still be problematic And it's ok to not like things but really think about how you enage with others about it. Like if you dislike a certain style of music its ok to not force yourself to like it but also recognize that maybe one of the reasons you don't is because you haven't been exposed to it (i think studies have found that people tastes in music tend to be mostly formed during their teens). If a style of music has not been supported due to racism during that time, then your tastes are shaped by racism even if it is out of your control or doesn't seem like it at first. Its ok to admit that and work towards supporting and not putting down certain marginalized styles even if its not your cup of tea.
just saw it, and im not 'trying to spark' anything, you complimented my artistic ability, and it's something I have a lot of insecurity about and like... i really treasure those kinds of praise. I was thanking you, asshole.
this is why I don't accept fucking compliments, fucking shit.
It was a sarcastic remark to you and others about framing me as a sexist. The context of the comment is everything.
Now I’m an asshole for saying I don’t want another struggle started? How am I not supposed to read yours as sarcastic and trying to instigate something with a 12 hour later reply after everyone has moved on?
No one told you to not accept compliments. Fucking hell. Literally victimizing yourself at this point.
so now you're shitting on my ability to paint. wonderful. thanks. that was fucking necessary. I literally just told you im fucking insecure about this shit. what the fuck is wrong with you?
YOU GAVE ME A COMPLIMENT AND THEN SHIT ON ME WHEN I ACCEPTED IT EARNESTLY what the fuck else am I supposed to do to protect myself from that shit emotionally? you didn't just tell me, you SHOWED me, which, from my old lit classes, I seem to remember is MUCH FUCKING STRONGER.
fuck you don't call me comrade after that shit. fucking scroll the fuck up and take responsibility for your shitty behavior. I'm upset BECAUSE OF YOU AND YOUR ACTIONS AND YOUR WORDS and you tricking me into accepting a compliment about a thing im super insecure about, then telling me im an idiot for doing so. go fuck yourself you delusional proto-reactionary piece of shit.
Your replied to a comment from 12 hours ago that was a sarcastic remark regarding the framing of me being a sexist due to disagreements with other comrades about the nature of their criticisms. (Not the criticism itself, but about the time/place for defending it which I was told was tone policing.)
I never mentioned anything about your paintings. I never said you were a bad artist or that you should quit. I literally was saying you are taking a comment from half a day ago out of context. Then when I say what I meant by that comment during the time, you tell me I’m an asshole and to fuck myself because I’m actually insulting you, and not complimenting you?
you literally did! you said I had painted a great picture of you as a sexist asshole!
and then you took it back when I accepted!
you fucking lying piece of shit gaslighting monster! there's a fucking log, archive.org has records, and I took screenshots because I was so proud of someone saying I was a good painter. I just assumed I'd broken out the paints while I was in the drugs. ITS PROVABLE don't even try to edit this shit.
Yes. Figuratively painting a picture of me as a sexist online. On the internet. Not a physical painting of me being a sexist?
Like come on lol what is this now? You do not actually believe I was complimenting your personal hobby of painting when we were in a heated discussion of misogyny, sexism, vocal fry, and Red Scare.
The context is everything. As I have said. You can check archive.org for what I said about it even.
hey, wow, good dodge you lying gaslighting emotionally abusive piece of shit, but I have links and screenshots and I will always know the truth. fuck you you reactionary fucking shit scanner.
im so sorry for believing somebody could actually like my art, I should have fucking known better, is that what you're fucking saying? I should BE FUCKING SORRY for ever believing that someone thought I made pretty lines or had good use of color in a limited palette?
fuck you posting images is really hard on this operating system and its honestly not worth the effort to "prove" something to a disingenuous reactionary who will just move the fucking goal posts. because you ARE a reactionary under there, whatever armor you might wear.
Honestly I would love to see your art and paintings. I wish I was able to artistically express myself. You don’t have to prove anything to me or anyone, especially if it is something you care about Ike you seem to about art/painting. No part of me is trying to shit on or hate on that part of you. Simply was clarifying that the comment from 12 hours ago was in the context of the whole argument, not complimenting a hobby of yours that I had no idea about.
I’m sure parts of me are still reactionary. It’s not easy to break out of liberalism, and we live in a liberal democracy after all.
this isn't about you, you piece of shit. I have a policy of not wasting effort trying to prove shit to people who are not and can not be anything other than dishonest reactionaries. I only even read the first six words of your post. eat shit fascist. your entire psychology is pure fucking fasc, literally everything you've said.
and stop calling yourself a fucking communist. you're not. you never will be. stop fucking lying to yourself and everybody else, you give my statist comrades a bad name.
this is objective fucking fact. you act exactly like a disingenuous reactionary. literally everything you say, with the exception of the barest vineer of communist aesthetic, is straight up reactionary bullshit. I may as well be in r/conservative for this comment.
not a comrade. as I've stated. your speech and rhetorical maneuvers are exactly what a reactionary would do. if he walks like a reactionary, and talks like a reactionary, maybe someone should ask: why the fuck is he pretending to be a communist? he obviously doesn't believe in anything. he's just out for himself and his own privilege. so what's the actual point here?
what is the actual point of pretending to be a communist? why do that?
Yes I am pretending to be a communist. I have not been radicalized by anything in my personal life experience, the US I’m general, or the world at large. All because I made fun of you on chapo.chat. That’s what this whole op has been about.
“ You are the only creature in the entire Universe who has free will. You are the only one who has to figure out what to do next - and why.”
im not questioning that you've been radicalized. im calling you a self centered delusional fascist wearing a communist mask to feel like a good person, and you're not either thing. you';d know it if you were capable of being honest about yourself. fuck you for existing, you're the reason humanity is a lost cause.
and the crazy men that argued with him, too! They're equally to blame for the escalation that led to this horrid comment:
im not questioning that you’ve been radicalized. im calling you a self centered delusional fascist wearing a communist mask to feel like a good person, and you’re not either thing. you’;d know it if you were capable of being honest about yourself. fuck you for existing, you’re the reason humanity is a lost cause.
She comes back, sober, and takes his sarcastic comment genuinely, explaining
It wasnt even sarcastic it was just a turn of phrase. It's an idiom. I legit don't see why she blew up on him for saying "she's a shitty artist" unless they actually don't know what that idiom means which is possible but unlikely. The rest is all fine but that part in particular confused the fuck outta me.
look at the underlying logic in their statements, look at the structure of the things they say, they ways they use identity as a bludgeon, the persecution complex (used to attack discredit and gas light), the way they straight up say something like 'how dare I be a straight cis white man im so persecuted' somewhere on there in a way im pretty sure was unironic; almost everything they said was a dog whistle or a tell, and everything looped back to a persecution-entitlement narrative.
sober me was half curious how far they would take it, half just pissed because of life stuff and saw a fascist as an acceptable target who'd been gaslighting earlier to type-shout at when he popped up in my 'new'. mostly not proud of that.
so you're a product of your environment. but you can't be misogynist. because...???
your environment wasn't one that would have nurtured that? slipped it into every crack and crevice in midly homoerotic ways you wouldn't find so damn offensive or scary or gross if it didn't al so link them to homophobia and transphobia and entitlement and the whole shit-show of race and the idea that if someone touches ur butt ur less,(and you know queer people are fine and whatever but it still scares you and makes you think you might be less when someone things you might be one, so you gotta clarify) and also why is it HOMOerotic for your god damn environment to be doing this? does that maybe say something about who fucking created the conditions of society at present and the associations in your head about power?
im not trying to prove this to an audience; I don't think anybody's fucking reading this but you and me and the mods who will obviously show up at your house at 2 AM (wait what time zone are you? shit, whatever, next one) and take you off to the fucking gulag. had a nice CHUD-wank to the auto-snuff persecution fantasy yet? want me to add in some more detail? maybe "the grit of their boots as they cross the threshhold to your home grinds against the doorframe in a grim foreshadowing of..."?
okay I fucking hate the idea of mods and cops but if it helps get you off, I will, no shit, buy someone a pair of heavy boots. this is a joke, but im dead serious. give me a shipping address and a shoe size. sober me is gonna be pissed but knows she would have spent it on wire and junk electronic components anyway.
Just stay drunk and come over here and shoot me. Or use those boots to stomp my head in. Idc at this point.
I’ll even load the gun for you and you can make it look like a suicide if you want. That’s the sort of leftist unity we want and need on this side apparently.
I HAVEN"T EVEN BOUGHT THOSE BOOTS YET AND THEY'RE NOT FOR ME DAMMIT! I LIVE IN CALIFORNIA; I DON'T EVEN HAVE A PAIR OF BOOTS RIGHT NOW BECAUSE SANDALS ARE GENERALLY MORE PRACTICAL IN THIS WEATHER AND SNEAKERS WILL DO IN ALL OTHER OCCASIONS IM LIKELY TO ENCOUNTER!
as to the other thing:
look, im an anarchist. i was trying for leftist unity here, with boots and gulags and everything. there was all this pageantry and you would've been okay with A FUCKING GUN?
hey back to that argument I made way too much at length:
does it hurt your ears? or is it both men and women doing it that bugs you?
because if its both, then its entirely psychosemantic. its a group fucking hallucination bullshit of misogyny and capitalist media. this is a PSA that you've been fucked. that they got you. and you're fighting against it. why?
you're not gonna examine it any more than that self pitying defensive bullshit? really? again; i won't care about this in a few hours. ill think I was stupid for arguing any of this. im the closest thing to some sort of platonic idea of a stupid thought experiment ghost that exists only for the conversation that you're gonna find. so why the defensiveness?
Because I’m a dumb lib and only like the idea of politics and revolutionary action while using opportunistic language to coop leftists for my own personal gain.
well im unironically glad you could have this moment of impressive growth as a person. im very happy for you. a few more like you around, and, fuck, the future doesn't look so dark. what heights you all might reach!
Yeah I think you are thinking of uptalk. It doesn't happen to me, but there is some conceivable basis for vocal fry causing discomfort. For example (unrelated to fry or uptalk) some youtube videos that I watch cause physical discomfort in my ears-- kind of like a milder form of when you hear something really loud and your ear shuts off. Something about the way the voice is mixed is just physically grating. Even turning the audio down to barely perceptible levels doesn't solve it.
Uptalk is a purely prescpitivist social thing, like you said.
and the criticism is still bullshit and anyone complaining about frequency here is literally just saying bigoted bullshit and blaming cis women for adjusting voices to their culture to gain respect. its a no-win situation and you're perpetuating it. so yes, oops, wrong thing, but also I think some other people were talking about the wrong thing, and shitting on either is bullshit. you do not find those frequencies annoying from a material perspective, this is cultural and cultural biases should always be interrogated..
Some people’s voices are just annoying. Doesn’t have to be a woman, this specific instance is talking about two though. No one is saying they should change the way they speak. Everyone here is saying they don’t listen to it. Calm the fuck down and stop trying to paint a target on your back.
How am I supposed to know what your voice sounds like? No one here is policing your voice. You are going out of your way to scold people for being misogynistic because they are saying certain sounds make certain vibrations that either hurts their ears, they don’t like, or just don’t want to listen to. You’re being more toxic by doing that than anyone else in this thread.
Holy fuck. No one was perpetuating misogyny besides saying “I don’t like vocal fry” and you reply to several comrades telling them to stop being sexist and misogynist. I’m 100% for women empowerment and for them to rise up to demand equality, but yelling at comrades for saying they don’t like vocal fry ain’t it chief.
Am a linguistics major... researched vocal fry extensively. It's sexist. It's no one's right to criticize how someone talks, especially when the main people you're criticizing is young women, who already get shit on for everything.
Well most people here are not linguistics majors, have not researched vocal fry extensively, and once again were not coming from a place of hostility. And no one was shitting on young women besides the two who have a public platform on a podcast, of which the post was specifically about. I feel like there is some can’t see the forest for the trees going on here.
That’s not what I’m trying to say. I mean, of course listen to women, especially in regards in things that concern them, their struggles, and oppression. I just feel it was misplaced for what other comrades were trying to say. Like, don’t waste this argument on me or on a thread about Red Scare.
No one was even trying to be misogynistic or hateful towards women is the thing. They were describing something they don’t like about a podcast that happens to have two women. That doesn’t mean you need to go around replying on several comrades comments that they are being misogynists and to stop being sexist. You came at them with more direct hostility than they had indirectly.
And I’ve completely separated the fact that you are a woman with the toxicity, unreasonableness, and target painting.
Intent is everything. No one was out right intentionally being sexist, and the comments I saw seemed to be scolding them for being those things. I understand how it can be sexist, but nothing here appeared to be anyone being like that (at the time this started). It looked like someone went “I don’t like vocal fry” and you said “you guys need to stop being sexist/Misogynist.”
I just meant that I don’t think being a woman is why those things came up. Like you are being those as a person, not specifically as a woman.
I completely understand why and how it is sexist. It is an audio stimulation that mainly occurs in young women. Since it is associated with young women certain social and cultural norms arise from not only hearing it, but thinking about it as well. Due to these social and cultural norms, people will start to negatively associate vocal fry with women because it could be any number of negative effects that could bother someone. Then it just gets molded into outright misogyny if let unchecked.
I’m at work so I’m typing fast and probably not using the correct language. I don’t mean it’s a choice. It’s just how they sound or what their voice does. Yes you said it yourself that it occurs mainly in women but also does in young men too.
I WAS COMPLAINING ABOUT BEING ANNOYED BY MALE VOCAL FRY AND I WAS STILL CALLED A MISOGYNIST BECAUSE IT IS MAINLY ATTRIBUTED TO WOMEN.
I’m so fucking done with all of this. :ban-hammer: please. Purge me and my misogyny since I’m just a stupid moron apparently that hates women
Maybe people piled on because it wasn’t necessary given the context and could have, as a mod, made a post or stickied it even to explain to people how it is sexist. Rather than specifically commenting on comrades replies telling them not to be sexist, implying that they are being it, even if their intent was not one of misogyny.
None of this was coming from a place of sexism or misogyny. Just seemed like it was more of a “hey you are being a sexist!!” Rather than a “hey, that is sexism pls don’t.” If you cared that much about this, why not make a post that explains how language today can be seen as sexist, even if the speaker has no intention of trying to be or sound like one.
I just don’t feel like a red scare shit talk post was the location for this hill to die on. I never said you were incorrect, I admit that I didn’t know it was inherently sexist, and have said several times you are correct. That doesn’t make me a super hard anti women man.
There is absolutely nothing I can say now with the label of me being a sexist that won’t reflect upon that. Anything I say is defense of myself or my thoughts earlier will be critiqued with “well you utter buffoon, you should now that because we live in a patriarchal and misogynist society and culture, you as a man have no choice but to be a sexist because you have never done _________.”
Like what do you want? Is yelling at some idiot about vocal fry the extent of your leftist aspirations? Why go so hard on this specific topic, in this post, about these people, and this specific audio tic?
Ok, have your opinion here, but also acknowledge that you made someone here feel shite. All you've done is say 'but technically I wasn't wrong' when really you should take some of what they're saying onboard, say 'hm, I didn't know that about vocal fry - I'll take a closer look some time' and then apologise for making someone feel marginalised, whether it was an innocent mistake or not.
I got language policed for disability related slurs that I didn't realise were slurs not so long ago. Totally innocent mistake. I was ill informed. Didn't mean to cause offence. Yet still, I was wrong, and I made someone feel bad.
I’ve admitted stuff I don’t know and openly try to learn as much as I can since I don’t know the struggles other comrades go through since I’m literally a straight white dude.
This has once against turned into a struggle session for no reason because someone fees targeted by comments made about Red Scare.
okay but preferences aren't magical things that spring forth from the fucking ether. they're based on shit. they're connected to things. usually cultural biases and implications and values and shit. preferences CAN be problematic. if you're trying to avoid that so aggressively, it's because you know most of yours are rooted in problematic shit.
because if you can't ask more of your fucking desires, of your literal fucking aspirations, how can you ask more of literally anyone or anything?
Preferences can be problematic yes, but no one was trying to be problematic by saying they don’t like Red Scare and that they don’t like vocal fry, specifically theirs in this post.
This specific instance picked up on VOCAL FRY. Vocal frying is pretty much only done by young women, and they've been shit on for it for no reason, just like how young women get shit on for everything else. Maybe the actual act of vocal fry isn't annoying, rather it's just that society has told you it is.
This is a serious question, without a trace of irony: Do you think it is possible to dislike vocal fry (in any person) without it being rooted in conscious or unconscious misogyny? Roughly speaking what percentage would you estimate is due to benign preference vs. some sort of misogyny? 50:50, 25:75, 5:95? If, for the sake of argument, mine is just benign preference, are you saying I should change my preference, or just not vocalize my preference?
But I unironically immediately thought the guy reading the intro (ira glass?) to have an annoying voice while none of the women bothered me. Is that misogyny?
Saying that vocal fry is more often noticed in women and that that is a bad thing is an understandable position. What is not understandable is saying that ever criticizing vocal fry is misogyny. I have no strong feelings about Red Scare one way or the other. I opened their most recent episode and skipped to the middle to listen, and while their regular voices are tolerable, at times they draw out words in the most grating manner! Are you going to say that drawing out one word over 3 seconds like that is not a choice?
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Is this a bit?
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Yeah I read the article you linked elsewhere. It’s not sexist to think vocal fry is annoying or that I don’t want it piercing my ears while at work. It can be used that way but I don’t think people here are doing that.
i once listened to a whole radio program on NPR (yeah I didn't pick it) where two guys had this exact same argument about how its awful and shit. one guy pointed out that he'd been doing it the whole time but since he was a guy it hadn't bothered anyone.
there was an awkward silence, and the arguments just came back up without acknowledging it, because libs are shit. I look forward to the more creative more intellectually rigorous bullshit excuse you'll come up with for this same phenomenon.
Vocal fry on a guy is annoying too.
most men don't notice they're listening to a man with vocal fry unless its pointed out to them, often while making that same argument. the voices don't ping as annoying. ive seen it a billion times during the great vocal fry learning-what-that-word-means the libs had like a decade ago. do you really think you're special. ive heard multiple recorded examples. im telling you you only think its annoying because its associated with young women, who are supposed to be something that's inconsequential.
Or I don’t like it because I wear headphones at work and my ears are sensitive and it’s hurts sometimes. Could also be that, or maybe you’re correct, I’m just the leader of the He-Man-Woman-Hater-Club.
so its not vocal fry you hate, but literally anything that goes up to the frequencies that cis women typically hit at the high points of speaking in vocal fry? so its just the bodies of, like, whatever % of the population?
and you didn't think to maybe be pissed about the frequency response on your headphones, and how they don't handle high frequencies well?
or are we back to the problem being (mostly) cis women?
oh, wait, no, because you hate when men do it too, right? so it's clearly not just a matter of frequencies, because both cis and trans guys tend to have deeper speaking voices than cis women we assumed you might have been having a problem with earlier and....
oh hey we're back at this being a completely cultural thing with absolutely no connection to material condition! and what are the associations of vocal fry in your culture?
I’m not attacking woman. What is your issue here? That I’m not using a dialectic approach to why I don’t like high frequencies? Why jump into this struggle session?
its a big red flag for misogynistic shit, you're the one who raised it. its part of huge systemic biases and the underlying machinery of bigotry that grinds people the fuck down every fucking day. this isn't "which is the best way", this is "you're being part of so very many problems" its a diff kind of struggle session, and not jumping in to this kind would be shitty.
fuck it when I sober up I won't even respect you (collectively, to just however many billion of you aren't reading this) enough to tell you you're wrong, and we can go back to pretending that's my approval of all your fucked up shit, because I'll know you can't and won't do better and there's no point in trying to explain it to you. leave this unresponded to and I can just let you blend into the bigoted awful shitty capitalist tyranny that's just kind o f everything.
but for now: fuck you do better.
Oh spare me please. I fucking forgot I’m not allowed to voice my opinion since I’m not a targeted in anyway in society. But whatever. I’m not a good enough communist because I am a misogynist for saying vocal fry hurts my ears. Absolutely ridiculous and just keeps making me wonder why I even come to this place anymore.
its not voicing your opinion, it's the fact that you're unwilling to examine it and where it comes from, that we know it comes from this shitty place, and you're saying it sprang forth ex fucking nihilo. that you're so resistant to fucking introspection and the very idea that you might not be perfect already, that you put all this effort into preserving the ways you suck.
if you're that fucking perfect, why even fucking try? its all already done, right? just waiting for the world to fall in line and... worship you? give you whatever you think you fucking deserve just by virtue of being you? fuck, why not wear a crown while you're at it?
but again, in a few hours I won't respect you enough to think you can or would ever want to do better and I'll look at all this trying to ask someone to be better, to want a better self and a better world and just anything better than this, and think "wtf did I take?"
I’m just me.
okay. and that's some essential thing, entirely separate from your environment?
What? No? I’m a product of my environment and I’m only who I am because of intense pressure from forces outside of my conception, the material conditions I was raised in, etc.
great! now, are you going to argue that you're not currently in/definitely from a deeeeeeeply misogynist shit hole that uses the gender divide to extract free labor and dehumanize both classes of people to one another in that weird freaky fetishizing way that keeps reproduction going but still keeps people of differing genders alienated from one another that capitalists do so love to build on the bones of any haunted (traditional (deeply problematic in varying ways from culture to culture depending on previous system of oppression) gender hierarchies) burial ground they can get their hands on?
If it gets you to stop harassing me at this point sure. I’ll say whatever you want. You don’t have to explain stuff is such a demeaning way. I mean if you really want me to understand instead of just using me a a lightning rod for your revolutionary passions.
dude. read your responses here, from this whole conversation, back to yourself. look at the way you phrased them. look at the arguments you're making. ask yourself, be honest (you not me, dont even tell me the answer you come to) where and who you think talks like that?
and why?
Look, I’ve already told the mods to ban me and remove my comments. I won’t make another account and I’ll just fuck off like you and everyone else in this thread wants.
the request is to be better. why is THIS THING something you can't examine? something that can't have seeped in and be a product of the bullshit misogyny all around you?
did you feel this strongly yesterday? that's usually a good indicator of whether an emotion has a reactionary component. again; the answer is for you, not for me.
All I was saying that I didn’t think it was necessary to have called out people for being misogynists since they said they don’t like vocal fry. Was never trying to hate on women or get into some philosophical argument about why I am a misogynist secretly and have only ever done no-growths.
maybe, but a lot of your responses here were very reactionary, and your original arguments were inconsistent. bigotry isn't something you get up in the morning to do , and put on your "ima murder some black people" mask and... okay bad example. it's usually not that. like, nobody has wifebeating gloves (except cops), that they change into like some creepy supervillain bullshit
its little things, little jabs that people get from a thousand different directions over and over again. and the request here is to not be one of them. its your reactions that are the most worrying thing here. it's fine though. by my material measurement, this argument has cost you nothing, not even a surrendered bit of ego, and im probably gonna end up spending like a hundred dollars getting some asshole a pair of boots.
Yes and you’re drunk replies weren’t at all reactionary since you have held onto them since before yesterday. I get it too, you’re smarter than me and can find inconsistencies in my arguments. Congratulations. You are correct again and I am wrong once more.
before yesterday? okay i may have crossed midnight with some funny chemistry upstairs, but if theres anything from serious yesterday here it isn't me
my point at least isn't "you're hating on" it was "youre contributing to a structure of devaluation and shittiness that has poisoned your mind, and is using you to propagandize diminish and colonize others"
Oh well it did not come off that way in any single comment until just now. Thanks for that.
nobody here suspected you of having a special pair of wife beating gloves and a special cat calling whistle. that's not how this shit (usually) works. its more like viruses. this is a contact telling you "hey, um, dude? did you send me this email asking if I want to buy viagra from a nigerian prince so he can affort his dick extension?"
You guys have painted a pretty good picture that makes it seem like I hate women.
I don't think that's what it seems like. I've read most of the exchange and I don't think you hate women but you probably are unwilling to do a bit of self examination. As you acknowledge we do live in a sexist society and nobody is immune to their surroundings.
Like even I as someone who reads feminist theory/has experienced sexism will have moments where I instinctively find certain womanly traits annoying and I have to stop myself and question if that annoyance comes from a place of sexism or not (and honestly, sometimes it does). I AM A FEMINIST I STILL THINK I HAVE MY SEXIST MOMENTS. No one is immune from doing sexist things and we have to constantly be open to unlearning/rethinking things. Most instances of sexism are very subtle and unintentional. The important thing is willingness to listen/improve.
Also even if you find it annoying from a completely neutral place, you don't have to point it out. There are a million reasons to dislike the pod, there isn't a need to point out their voices especially if someone is telling you that it contributes to sexist dialogue around women. It's not like pointing out the voice thing is some deep or insightful thing, you're not losing anything by deleting or editing the comment.
This was what I was thinking. We all have preferences, and maybe those preferences come from a harmful place sometimes, and maybe they don't, but when one is then motivated to publicly criticize another person based on one's personal preferences that's crossing a line.
Though following this thread did bring up a question: what does good self-crit look like in this scenario? After you've recognized that a preference or belief or what-have-you is problematic, how would one reshape their thinking?
I think firstly, its important to remember that a lot of ideas are informed by the world around you and it doesn't necessarily make you a bad person just because you realized or someone has pointed out that your ideas might be associated with bigotry. If someone has, try not to make it about yourself (like even if someone isn't being super nice about it, think about why you're more concerned with how you're being criticized rather than how your words affect others. Focus on WHY you are being critized vs. how . not saying you do this but I see it a lot here
As for next steps its really hard to say because it can be different for everyone. Maybe try and think about how you dismantle capitalist poisoned ideas and apply it to other areas?
For example: Feeling less worthy because of your income. It's very normal to feel this way because in capitalist hellworld everyone around you has either explicitly or subtly reinforced ideas around money based meritocracy. Its OK to have this feeling but also recognize that it comes from a shiity and unfair world and its not some objective sentiment or one that comes from thin air. Its a constant battle and it sucks but it does get easier over time. As I learned more leftist ideas, I got better at catching myself for feeling bad about doing things that "weren't productive".
Another thing is that your sense of normalcy is completely constructed and sometimes things that are out of your control can still be problematic And it's ok to not like things but really think about how you enage with others about it. Like if you dislike a certain style of music its ok to not force yourself to like it but also recognize that maybe one of the reasons you don't is because you haven't been exposed to it (i think studies have found that people tastes in music tend to be mostly formed during their teens). If a style of music has not been supported due to racism during that time, then your tastes are shaped by racism even if it is out of your control or doesn't seem like it at first. Its ok to admit that and work towards supporting and not putting down certain marginalized styles even if its not your cup of tea.
thanks; I've always wanted to get into the visual arts. im glad the effort is paying off.
Why are you trying to spark the fire to this again? This was 12 hours ago.
just saw it, and im not 'trying to spark' anything, you complimented my artistic ability, and it's something I have a lot of insecurity about and like... i really treasure those kinds of praise. I was thanking you, asshole.
this is why I don't accept fucking compliments, fucking shit.
It was a sarcastic remark to you and others about framing me as a sexist. The context of the comment is everything.
Now I’m an asshole for saying I don’t want another struggle started? How am I not supposed to read yours as sarcastic and trying to instigate something with a 12 hour later reply after everyone has moved on?
No one told you to not accept compliments. Fucking hell. Literally victimizing yourself at this point.
so now you're shitting on my ability to paint. wonderful. thanks. that was fucking necessary. I literally just told you im fucking insecure about this shit. what the fuck is wrong with you?
YOU GAVE ME A COMPLIMENT AND THEN SHIT ON ME WHEN I ACCEPTED IT EARNESTLY what the fuck else am I supposed to do to protect myself from that shit emotionally? you didn't just tell me, you SHOWED me, which, from my old lit classes, I seem to remember is MUCH FUCKING STRONGER.
go fuck yourself and your gaslighting bullshit.
What the fuck?
Are you okay, comrade? Like sincerely, is everything alright?
fuck you don't call me comrade after that shit. fucking scroll the fuck up and take responsibility for your shitty behavior. I'm upset BECAUSE OF YOU AND YOUR ACTIONS AND YOUR WORDS and you tricking me into accepting a compliment about a thing im super insecure about, then telling me im an idiot for doing so. go fuck yourself you delusional proto-reactionary piece of shit.
I didn’t trick you into accepting anything.
Your replied to a comment from 12 hours ago that was a sarcastic remark regarding the framing of me being a sexist due to disagreements with other comrades about the nature of their criticisms. (Not the criticism itself, but about the time/place for defending it which I was told was tone policing.)
I never mentioned anything about your paintings. I never said you were a bad artist or that you should quit. I literally was saying you are taking a comment from half a day ago out of context. Then when I say what I meant by that comment during the time, you tell me I’m an asshole and to fuck myself because I’m actually insulting you, and not complimenting you?
you literally did! you said I had painted a great picture of you as a sexist asshole!
and then you took it back when I accepted!
you fucking lying piece of shit gaslighting monster! there's a fucking log, archive.org has records, and I took screenshots because I was so proud of someone saying I was a good painter. I just assumed I'd broken out the paints while I was in the drugs. ITS PROVABLE don't even try to edit this shit.
Yes. Figuratively painting a picture of me as a sexist online. On the internet. Not a physical painting of me being a sexist?
Like come on lol what is this now? You do not actually believe I was complimenting your personal hobby of painting when we were in a heated discussion of misogyny, sexism, vocal fry, and Red Scare.
The context is everything. As I have said. You can check archive.org for what I said about it even.
hey, wow, good dodge you lying gaslighting emotionally abusive piece of shit, but I have links and screenshots and I will always know the truth. fuck you you reactionary fucking shit scanner.
im so sorry for believing somebody could actually like my art, I should have fucking known better, is that what you're fucking saying? I should BE FUCKING SORRY for ever believing that someone thought I made pretty lines or had good use of color in a limited palette?
eat. every. possible. dick.
Link or your a lib
fuck you posting images is really hard on this operating system and its honestly not worth the effort to "prove" something to a disingenuous reactionary who will just move the fucking goal posts. because you ARE a reactionary under there, whatever armor you might wear.
Honestly I would love to see your art and paintings. I wish I was able to artistically express myself. You don’t have to prove anything to me or anyone, especially if it is something you care about Ike you seem to about art/painting. No part of me is trying to shit on or hate on that part of you. Simply was clarifying that the comment from 12 hours ago was in the context of the whole argument, not complimenting a hobby of yours that I had no idea about.
I’m sure parts of me are still reactionary. It’s not easy to break out of liberalism, and we live in a liberal democracy after all.
this isn't about you, you piece of shit. I have a policy of not wasting effort trying to prove shit to people who are not and can not be anything other than dishonest reactionaries. I only even read the first six words of your post. eat shit fascist. your entire psychology is pure fucking fasc, literally everything you've said.
and stop calling yourself a fucking communist. you're not. you never will be. stop fucking lying to yourself and everybody else, you give my statist comrades a bad name.
If you say so.
this is objective fucking fact. you act exactly like a disingenuous reactionary. literally everything you say, with the exception of the barest vineer of communist aesthetic, is straight up reactionary bullshit. I may as well be in r/conservative for this comment.
You’re just being openly hostile to comrades online now.
not a comrade. as I've stated. your speech and rhetorical maneuvers are exactly what a reactionary would do. if he walks like a reactionary, and talks like a reactionary, maybe someone should ask: why the fuck is he pretending to be a communist? he obviously doesn't believe in anything. he's just out for himself and his own privilege. so what's the actual point here?
what is the actual point of pretending to be a communist? why do that?
Yes I am pretending to be a communist. I have not been radicalized by anything in my personal life experience, the US I’m general, or the world at large. All because I made fun of you on chapo.chat. That’s what this whole op has been about.
“ You are the only creature in the entire Universe who has free will. You are the only one who has to figure out what to do next - and why.”
im not questioning that you've been radicalized. im calling you a self centered delusional fascist wearing a communist mask to feel like a good person, and you're not either thing. you';d know it if you were capable of being honest about yourself. fuck you for existing, you're the reason humanity is a lost cause.
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some dude said he didn't like vocal fry and people jumped on him for being sexist, even though he stated that he dislikes vocal fry in men too
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and the crazy men that argued with him, too! They're equally to blame for the escalation that led to this horrid comment:
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maybe you can help me follow but i literally cant see where he complimented her artistic ability
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It wasnt even sarcastic it was just a turn of phrase. It's an idiom. I legit don't see why she blew up on him for saying "she's a shitty artist" unless they actually don't know what that idiom means which is possible but unlikely. The rest is all fine but that part in particular confused the fuck outta me.
why are they a fascist
look at the underlying logic in their statements, look at the structure of the things they say, they ways they use identity as a bludgeon, the persecution complex (used to attack discredit and gas light), the way they straight up say something like 'how dare I be a straight cis white man im so persecuted' somewhere on there in a way im pretty sure was unironic; almost everything they said was a dog whistle or a tell, and everything looped back to a persecution-entitlement narrative.
sober me was half curious how far they would take it, half just pissed because of life stuff and saw a fascist as an acceptable target who'd been gaslighting earlier to type-shout at when he popped up in my 'new'. mostly not proud of that.
so you're a product of your environment. but you can't be misogynist. because...???
your environment wasn't one that would have nurtured that? slipped it into every crack and crevice in midly homoerotic ways you wouldn't find so damn offensive or scary or gross if it didn't al so link them to homophobia and transphobia and entitlement and the whole shit-show of race and the idea that if someone touches ur butt ur less,(and you know queer people are fine and whatever but it still scares you and makes you think you might be less when someone things you might be one, so you gotta clarify) and also why is it HOMOerotic for your god damn environment to be doing this? does that maybe say something about who fucking created the conditions of society at present and the associations in your head about power?
im not trying to prove this to an audience; I don't think anybody's fucking reading this but you and me and the mods who will obviously show up at your house at 2 AM (wait what time zone are you? shit, whatever, next one) and take you off to the fucking gulag. had a nice CHUD-wank to the auto-snuff persecution fantasy yet? want me to add in some more detail? maybe "the grit of their boots as they cross the threshhold to your home grinds against the doorframe in a grim foreshadowing of..."?
okay I fucking hate the idea of mods and cops but if it helps get you off, I will, no shit, buy someone a pair of heavy boots. this is a joke, but im dead serious. give me a shipping address and a shoe size. sober me is gonna be pissed but knows she would have spent it on wire and junk electronic components anyway.
Just stay drunk and come over here and shoot me. Or use those boots to stomp my head in. Idc at this point.
I’ll even load the gun for you and you can make it look like a suicide if you want. That’s the sort of leftist unity we want and need on this side apparently.
I HAVEN"T EVEN BOUGHT THOSE BOOTS YET AND THEY'RE NOT FOR ME DAMMIT! I LIVE IN CALIFORNIA; I DON'T EVEN HAVE A PAIR OF BOOTS RIGHT NOW BECAUSE SANDALS ARE GENERALLY MORE PRACTICAL IN THIS WEATHER AND SNEAKERS WILL DO IN ALL OTHER OCCASIONS IM LIKELY TO ENCOUNTER!
as to the other thing:
look, im an anarchist. i was trying for leftist unity here, with boots and gulags and everything. there was all this pageantry and you would've been okay with A FUCKING GUN?
Shoot coward. You will only kill a man.
FUCK YOU I BUILT THIS GULAG FOR NOTHING!?
seriously there was no scrap lumber, this did not come pre-distressed. this is all work.
hey back to that argument I made way too much at length:
does it hurt your ears? or is it both men and women doing it that bugs you?
because if its both, then its entirely psychosemantic. its a group fucking hallucination bullshit of misogyny and capitalist media. this is a PSA that you've been fucked. that they got you. and you're fighting against it. why?
Because I’m a counter revolutionary apparently.
you're not gonna examine it any more than that self pitying defensive bullshit? really? again; i won't care about this in a few hours. ill think I was stupid for arguing any of this. im the closest thing to some sort of platonic idea of a stupid thought experiment ghost that exists only for the conversation that you're gonna find. so why the defensiveness?
Because I’m a dumb lib and only like the idea of politics and revolutionary action while using opportunistic language to coop leftists for my own personal gain.
well im unironically glad you could have this moment of impressive growth as a person. im very happy for you. a few more like you around, and, fuck, the future doesn't look so dark. what heights you all might reach!
except vocal fry is in lower frequencies?
am i mixing it up with the other thing? the shit we're policing peoples voices for and the current fashions are so hard to follow
Yeah I think you are thinking of uptalk. It doesn't happen to me, but there is some conceivable basis for vocal fry causing discomfort. For example (unrelated to fry or uptalk) some youtube videos that I watch cause physical discomfort in my ears-- kind of like a milder form of when you hear something really loud and your ear shuts off. Something about the way the voice is mixed is just physically grating. Even turning the audio down to barely perceptible levels doesn't solve it.
Uptalk is a purely prescpitivist social thing, like you said.
i think a lot of people get them mixed up
and the criticism is still bullshit and anyone complaining about frequency here is literally just saying bigoted bullshit and blaming cis women for adjusting voices to their culture to gain respect. its a no-win situation and you're perpetuating it. so yes, oops, wrong thing, but also I think some other people were talking about the wrong thing, and shitting on either is bullshit. you do not find those frequencies annoying from a material perspective, this is cultural and cultural biases should always be interrogated..
what?
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Some people’s voices are just annoying. Doesn’t have to be a woman, this specific instance is talking about two though. No one is saying they should change the way they speak. Everyone here is saying they don’t listen to it. Calm the fuck down and stop trying to paint a target on your back.
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How am I supposed to know what your voice sounds like? No one here is policing your voice. You are going out of your way to scold people for being misogynistic because they are saying certain sounds make certain vibrations that either hurts their ears, they don’t like, or just don’t want to listen to. You’re being more toxic by doing that than anyone else in this thread.
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Lol yes that is what I am saying. :I-was-saying:
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Holy fuck. No one was perpetuating misogyny besides saying “I don’t like vocal fry” and you reply to several comrades telling them to stop being sexist and misogynist. I’m 100% for women empowerment and for them to rise up to demand equality, but yelling at comrades for saying they don’t like vocal fry ain’t it chief.
Am a linguistics major... researched vocal fry extensively. It's sexist. It's no one's right to criticize how someone talks, especially when the main people you're criticizing is young women, who already get shit on for everything.
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Well most people here are not linguistics majors, have not researched vocal fry extensively, and once again were not coming from a place of hostility. And no one was shitting on young women besides the two who have a public platform on a podcast, of which the post was specifically about. I feel like there is some can’t see the forest for the trees going on here.
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That’s not what I’m trying to say. I mean, of course listen to women, especially in regards in things that concern them, their struggles, and oppression. I just feel it was misplaced for what other comrades were trying to say. Like, don’t waste this argument on me or on a thread about Red Scare.
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No one was even trying to be misogynistic or hateful towards women is the thing. They were describing something they don’t like about a podcast that happens to have two women. That doesn’t mean you need to go around replying on several comrades comments that they are being misogynists and to stop being sexist. You came at them with more direct hostility than they had indirectly.
And I’ve completely separated the fact that you are a woman with the toxicity, unreasonableness, and target painting.
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Intent is everything. No one was out right intentionally being sexist, and the comments I saw seemed to be scolding them for being those things. I understand how it can be sexist, but nothing here appeared to be anyone being like that (at the time this started). It looked like someone went “I don’t like vocal fry” and you said “you guys need to stop being sexist/Misogynist.”
I just meant that I don’t think being a woman is why those things came up. Like you are being those as a person, not specifically as a woman.
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I’m over all of this. Just take your victory, remove my comments, and ban me so I can fuck off.
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I completely understand why and how it is sexist. It is an audio stimulation that mainly occurs in young women. Since it is associated with young women certain social and cultural norms arise from not only hearing it, but thinking about it as well. Due to these social and cultural norms, people will start to negatively associate vocal fry with women because it could be any number of negative effects that could bother someone. Then it just gets molded into outright misogyny if let unchecked.
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I’m at work so I’m typing fast and probably not using the correct language. I don’t mean it’s a choice. It’s just how they sound or what their voice does. Yes you said it yourself that it occurs mainly in women but also does in young men too.
I WAS COMPLAINING ABOUT BEING ANNOYED BY MALE VOCAL FRY AND I WAS STILL CALLED A MISOGYNIST BECAUSE IT IS MAINLY ATTRIBUTED TO WOMEN.
I’m so fucking done with all of this. :ban-hammer: please. Purge me and my misogyny since I’m just a stupid moron apparently that hates women
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Maybe people piled on because it wasn’t necessary given the context and could have, as a mod, made a post or stickied it even to explain to people how it is sexist. Rather than specifically commenting on comrades replies telling them not to be sexist, implying that they are being it, even if their intent was not one of misogyny.
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None of this was coming from a place of sexism or misogyny. Just seemed like it was more of a “hey you are being a sexist!!” Rather than a “hey, that is sexism pls don’t.” If you cared that much about this, why not make a post that explains how language today can be seen as sexist, even if the speaker has no intention of trying to be or sound like one.
I just don’t feel like a red scare shit talk post was the location for this hill to die on. I never said you were incorrect, I admit that I didn’t know it was inherently sexist, and have said several times you are correct. That doesn’t make me a super hard anti women man.
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Welp, time to execute me for my crimes then.
There is absolutely nothing I can say now with the label of me being a sexist that won’t reflect upon that. Anything I say is defense of myself or my thoughts earlier will be critiqued with “well you utter buffoon, you should now that because we live in a patriarchal and misogynist society and culture, you as a man have no choice but to be a sexist because you have never done _________.”
Like what do you want? Is yelling at some idiot about vocal fry the extent of your leftist aspirations? Why go so hard on this specific topic, in this post, about these people, and this specific audio tic?
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Absolutely unbelievable.
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Ok, have your opinion here, but also acknowledge that you made someone here feel shite. All you've done is say 'but technically I wasn't wrong' when really you should take some of what they're saying onboard, say 'hm, I didn't know that about vocal fry - I'll take a closer look some time' and then apologise for making someone feel marginalised, whether it was an innocent mistake or not.
I got language policed for disability related slurs that I didn't realise were slurs not so long ago. Totally innocent mistake. I was ill informed. Didn't mean to cause offence. Yet still, I was wrong, and I made someone feel bad.
I’ve admitted stuff I don’t know and openly try to learn as much as I can since I don’t know the struggles other comrades go through since I’m literally a straight white dude.
This has once against turned into a struggle session for no reason because someone fees targeted by comments made about Red Scare.
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You’re right again. Congratulations.
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I didn’t realize they were above critique.
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Yea. But it's still annoying.
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Yea. But as you said we live in a patriarchal society and people have been conditioned to find certain attributes appealing and others off-putting.
It's not a moral failing to get tired of listening to vocal fry
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Once you think you’re out, you get pulled right back in again.
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:brace-cowboy:
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Yes. That too.
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I guess that depends on you politics. Questions of individual morality isn't really part of communist politics
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It's not a question of individual morality though.
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(forcing myself to listen to nazbol vocal fry so a rando on the internet will think I'm anti-sexist)
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You’re too obsessed with this shit. Can you leave my thread with this bullshit?
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You weren't the first they did that to and it's good that action was taken.
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okay but preferences aren't magical things that spring forth from the fucking ether. they're based on shit. they're connected to things. usually cultural biases and implications and values and shit. preferences CAN be problematic. if you're trying to avoid that so aggressively, it's because you know most of yours are rooted in problematic shit.
because if you can't ask more of your fucking desires, of your literal fucking aspirations, how can you ask more of literally anyone or anything?
Preferences can be problematic yes, but no one was trying to be problematic by saying they don’t like Red Scare and that they don’t like vocal fry, specifically theirs in this post.
This specific instance picked up on VOCAL FRY. Vocal frying is pretty much only done by young women, and they've been shit on for it for no reason, just like how young women get shit on for everything else. Maybe the actual act of vocal fry isn't annoying, rather it's just that society has told you it is.
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as evidenced by my incorrectness lmao
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This is a serious question, without a trace of irony: Do you think it is possible to dislike vocal fry (in any person) without it being rooted in conscious or unconscious misogyny? Roughly speaking what percentage would you estimate is due to benign preference vs. some sort of misogyny? 50:50, 25:75, 5:95? If, for the sake of argument, mine is just benign preference, are you saying I should change my preference, or just not vocalize my preference?
Totally cool that all the comments here got deleted, but not the responses lying about why I said in them. Totally a cool thing to do.
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But I unironically immediately thought the guy reading the intro (ira glass?) to have an annoying voice while none of the women bothered me. Is that misogyny?
Saying that vocal fry is more often noticed in women and that that is a bad thing is an understandable position. What is not understandable is saying that ever criticizing vocal fry is misogyny. I have no strong feelings about Red Scare one way or the other. I opened their most recent episode and skipped to the middle to listen, and while their regular voices are tolerable, at times they draw out words in the most grating manner! Are you going to say that drawing out one word over 3 seconds like that is not a choice?
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Literally didn't address any of that. All you said was vocal fry has a sexist background, so any and all criticism of vocal fry must be sexist
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