i swear to god, if i hear one more dumbass say a variant of "stupid-asses not reading theory" im gonna cum down their fucking throat.
like holy shit, slow the hell down queen. sorry that some of us don't feel like trying to decipher formal register bullshit, and would rather get their theory from people who don't sound like plantation owners.
"The surplus-value produced by prolongation of the working day, I call absolute surplus-value."
What the fuck is this supposed to mean? Is he talking about making long-ass workdays? Is he talking about creating extra value by overworking? What the fuck is it? Holy shit, the classism is rampant here and it's super fuckin' annoying to see.
If you tell somebody to read theory then you better be ready to help them fucking read it. Either that or don't tell them to at all, I could really give a shit what old generally-white guys said about a subject that I can understand by taking off fifteen minutes of my time to ask someone in a leftist discord. Ancient theory is useless in a modern domesticated setting, no-one talks like Marx nowadays.
/vent
i swear to god, if i hear one more dumbass say a variant of “stupid-asses not reading theory” im gonna cum down their fucking throat.
dont threaten me with a good time big boi
(._. )
( ._.)
...
Stupid asses not reading theory.
Ancient theory is useless in a modern domesticated setting
Pretty fucking stupid thing to say!
If you're having trouble reading Marx, that's totally fine man. If you really want to try to get into it, it would help to read it in tandem with a good lecture or commentary series from a decent leftist. If it's still a problem then you can just find the most credible leftist sources you can to summarize various points. That'll never be as concrete as just reading Kapital and understanding it, but it's not like you're a bad person if you either don't have the time to do that or simply can't.
That doesn't mean that the book itself is bad. I get that it's frustrating to be told to read something you are having trouble with, but nonetheless it would actually be good if large amounts of people read and understood Marx. That's just historically unquestionably true. From US radical black movements to the Chinese peasantry, reading and understanding Kapital has been pretty fucking important. It's a foundational and seminal piece of what is granted pretty involved work that is still extremely relevant to this day, and I'm not really sure why you're so upset about it beyond just feeling annoyed that you're being told to read it. There's nothing classist about that. The concepts in Marx's Kapital are extremely important and pretty fukn dense so it takes a lot of personal learning time to actually internalize them.
There's other theory, too. Try reading some Lenin or someone like that if you're interested in that. It's vastly more digestible and just not as vast.
I'm not an academic or anything I'm just some dumbass, so yeah it actually took me a lot of work to be able to get through Kapital. It's fukn hard. It's not so hard that it's impossible though, I just started with the assumption that what I think about the world is probably deeply ingrained, and if I'm going to learn anything different I'm going to have to do a LOT of work on weekends and nights and whenever I could fit it in. Helped to google things as I read it. It would have been pretty ridiculous for me to get mad at someone for not walking me through the entirety of it personally like my own personal tutor, and it would have been even more stupid of me to, having not read it at all, then proceed to call it ancient white man trash or something for classists that's irrelevant. Like, come man that's just pure cringe.
Sadly, while I agree with you, I think I understand the quote. IIRC, it's about how once a laborer has earned enough to take care of their basic needs in a workday, every moment past that spent working is pure value to the employer.
It's odd to me that "Modern Translation" versions of foundational texts aren't available. There's a million varieties of Bible, surely we can get a couple versions of Kapital in "idiomatic English".
If a bunch of Chinese peasants 100 years ago could read Marx and Lenin, people living in the most sophisticated age in history, with all of human knowledge one search engine entry away can figure it out.
I almost sympathised until you said “ancient theory is useless in a modern setting”, that’s just posting incredible cringe my friend.
By the way, these leftists on discord who can explain concepts to you in fifteen minutes.... how do you think they learned? Do you suppose they.... read theory? :curious-marx: :curious-marx: :curious-marx:
Wow, It's almost like educated people have generally put in the time to read theory, crazy how that works.
Theory should be easily-accessable for everyone, I'm sorry that you feel you deserve an achievement for fucking reading.
Yeh, I’m all for accessibility of leftist theory, I know I wouldn’t have gotten started if there weren’t a lot of online resources like podcasts to help as a study guide. But this is veering way too close to outright anti-intellectualism for me, which is something that no leftist should be espousing.
When did I say I feel like I deserve anything? For me engaging with those things is rewarding on its own merits.
Like I just pointed out to someone else, there are countless resources, whether it’s more modern texts, or podcasts, or videos, that convey the same concepts. They’re out there if people want to use them. But someone had to read the theory to create that content to begin with, which still undermines your whole point 🤷♀️
What the fuck is this supposed to mean? Is he talking about making long-ass workdays? Is he talking about creating extra value by overworking?
Yes long work days is basically what he's talking about.
A foundational aspect of scientific socialism, or any science, is doing the reading so you don't repeat what has already been done. If you have questions or something is unclear you should discuss it with comrades here or anywhere else. If a comrade isn't willing to help you reach an answer than they aren't a comrade, but this doesn't mean you shouldn't always be trying to learn and one of the easiest ways to do this is to look at foundational texts and going from there.
Edit: for what its worth, I also don't think Kapital is an incredibly important work of theory that every single worker has to read because it is dense, dry, 19th century political economy that most people only read the first volume of anyways. Many workers already know the contradictions in their workplace and are open to ideas like LTV (though it is useful nonetheless).
Literally if you're reading Capital from the beginning, it would be very easy to understand what is being said in that statement. Are you just plucking quotes randomly just to construct a stupid, anti-intellectual argument about books hard, when you could have just asked in good faith in the first place and someone would have been happy to answer?
when 70% of ML memes are haha funny idiot, of course i did. do you seriously fucking think I want to read through that shit? its all the same disengaging bullshit, theory is made for collegiate intellectuals and im not gonna take time out of my day to read something that modern theorists have been able to summarize in minutes.
lmao so you're literally just mad at the mere existence of a small quote from a book you haven't read and unironically just expressing the most moronic of anti-intellectual sentiments that reaches being borderline reactionary.
wanting other people with a high school or less education to be able to read theory = reactionary
lmao actual dumbass
edit: no wonder post-leftism is rising
You're actively complaining about a small quote plucked randomly like a fucking idiot for absolutely no reason when you could have just asked for help.
Being able to read theory means being able to grasp concepts that might not be immediately intuitive or obvious. You would still have to learn what surplus-value means dipshit.
im sorry that i woke up today and saw the most smoothbrained take in hot and got annoyed by it, keep going off i guess
I'm sorry you get weirdly mad at the mere existence of terms you don't already immediately understand. Maybe you can learn not to be a dipshit in future.
I’m sorry you get weirdly mad
*looks up to see you coming in extremely hot*
Being mad at moronic posts like this is actually the correct response, as compared to getting mad at the term surplus-value.
Yeah I'm mad at dipshits writing post #5320492 about how old books are bad, I've seen them hundreds of times, they add nothing and every time it's the same shit. If you want to know what something means, just fucking ask like a normal person.
If people have to keep making the same fucking post, then maybe theres a problem?
HMMMMMMM
How the fuck did i get 19 upvotes this fast, I know for a fact it wasn't possible to get 19 in 30 seconds lmao.
I don't walk into a philosophy class bitching about "old white men" because I encountered "Kantian ethics" and didn't understand what it meant. I don't attribute that as an innate problem that the phrase exists, and that it supposedly needs solving, especially from a position of ignorance about why such a thing might exist.
The "problem" is, surprise fucking surprise, various fields of study require learning shit. The "problem" is being able to engage with shit on its own terms. The "problem" is someone getting mad at a term they didn't know existed.
if you have to use big words to say that workers shouldnt be forced to overwork then you're a classist intellectual who wants to show off their degree
🤷♀️
Marx did not invent the term surplus-value for shits and giggles or to show off to Engels, for fucks sake. The term surplus-value describes the unpaid portion of labour, but is a term that specifically relates to the understanding of Value, distinct from prices, which for Marx is socially necessary labour time. Surplus-value forms the underlying basis of profit for Marx, and is important also when detailing the further consequences of Marxist economics .e.g. accumulation of capital, organic composition of capital (ratio of constant capital to variable capital i.e. human labour) and whatever else.
Thus, if you want to talk specifics of Marxist economics, terms like surplus-value have relevance and importance, and serves as a useful shorthand.
The "big words" are necessary in order to describe concepts particular to Marxist economics. This is also true of almost any field you could care to learn about. If you are starting from a place of not knowing that, then it is easy to be dismissive. It's the same sort of attitude that leads to chuds just insisting "But sex and gender are the same! There's only two sexes!!!" when you try to describe that's not the case and have to introduce new terminology they scoff at precisely because they're not familiar and don't care to understand.
Then use a fuckinng word that can easily be understood by anyone. Don't say surplus-value, say fucking "unpaid work".
I'm a leftist for a reason, because every other ideology doesn't give a fuck about the poor, if you aren't willing to translate the theory into something understandable then don't get pissy at me for thinking that the theory is dumbshit.
Then use a fuckinng word that can easily be understood by anyone. Don’t say surplus-value, say fucking “unpaid work”.
Because "extra cash" is not a sufficient term to describe or capture what is actually being discussed. It is not even merely the term in itself, it is a set of concepts that are interrelated in order to explain an important aspect of how Marx describes and explains the capitalist system. Surplus-value is not merely "extra-cash", nor is it even merely "unpaid work" in general laymans sense. These concepts require their own terminology to convey the specific meaning Marx is aiming to get across.
It is genuinely hard to get this across if you just refuse to simply accept that there are terms of art or jargon in every field, and that quite often these terms exist to describe concepts, behaviours, systems etc that cannot always be adequately described in pure laymans terms, or where terms have specific historical origins and therefore historical significance within that field.
This just highlights that you're speaking from a place of ignorance, which might have been fine if you just engaged productively, but instead you had a dumb knee-jerk reaction to some terms you didn't know.
I’m a leftist for a reason, because every other ideology doesn’t give a fuck about the poor, if you aren’t willing to translate the theory into something understandable then don’t get pissy at me for thinking that the theory is dumbshit.
Well I'm sorry, but sometimes learning requires coming to understand terms you aren't already familiar with. These terms are often useful once you actually learn what they are and why someone might have coined them.
Then maybe they could just ask without writing several paragraphs about a single term they saw and didn't know, and just ask like a normal person who was actually interested in understanding.
So what? All fields have their own terminology. They have to in order to be able to develop their fields. They all describe their own concepts, shorthands etc. This is not unique to Marx.
Of course it isn't, anarchist theory is the exact same, I only took Marx because hes the most wordy piece of shit I could mention at the time.
Yes, jargon abounds, is specific to the subject, and is less accessible than lay terms. I’m not advocating to not use or reference jargon, but if you cannot also explain ideas in simpler terms, what is their worth to people that may have difficulties with that jargon?
Good thing no one is against explaining anything then.
“Fuck you, read theory” does nothing to help anyone. Help your comrades, dont admonish them.
"Fuck you, old books bad" doesn't help anyone either. It actively makes discussion worse and less likely. Why should someone have the patience to help if you just write paragraphs of nonsense complaining about a new term you don't know. As I've already said just ask like a normal person actually interested in the subject .
Writing paragraphs out of frustration at how difficult diving into theory/ideas that run counter to everything we’ve been told and sold til now, seems pretty reasonable tbh. “How do I make sense of this” shouldn’t be cause to shun the person. Please come down from that high horse, o’ learned one.
"Fuck books, fuck old white men [Marx was Jewish]" because they encountered one fucking term. If you want help, learn to ask in good faith. It's not that hard.
Except I was never asking a question, I was voicing my annoyance with how people feel about theory. I literally never insulted Marx, and I used him as an example once.
I don't fucking care that he was Jewish, that doesn't matter to me. I said 'generally-white' because, AND SHOCKER, white men were generally very educated back when theory was being produced.
defending formal register so non-intellectuals cant read this dumb shit
reddit moment??
reddit moment is complaining about muh old white men making hard books, then bashing your head against the keyboard because a term you didn't already know exists.
A transliteration of seminal works into contemporary lay terms would be a major boon in terms of understanding the books and thus relating better to those that came after.
yeah, I agree that this is the biggest problem here. there's a cognitive load in trying to translate what's being said and understand it at the same time. we don't expect people to read theory in the original language and languages change over time; capital probably needs a modern translation.
the original was considered simple enough to understand that workers have been picking it up for 1.5 centuries and reading it in between their shifts. famously, poorly-educated black sharecroppers read Marx and Lenin through the 1930s, very nearly leading to a communist revolution.
There are hundreds of attempts to modernise the concepts in these old texts to present them to a new audience. They exist if people want to read them. But people like to use the density of the works, and the somewhat dated language, as an excuse not to educate themselves.
Attempt to find one easily, maybe then you'll understand what i'm saying.
Transliteration, even when it exists, is extremely hard to access.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/44403028-understanding-marxism
https://misterbookman.com.au/product/marx-a-beginners-guide-to-marxism-paperback-2005/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU-AkeOyiOQ
https://podtail.com/en/podcast/marx-madness/
https://redmenace.libsyn.com/
- $$$
- $$$
- A fucking hour long youtube video about a subject from the 1800's thats being argued over to this day.
- A fucking podcast about a subject from the 1800's thats being argued over to this day.
- A fucking podcast about a subject from the 1800's thats being argued over to this day.
An easily accessable PDF format should exist for the people who want to directly read a clear transliteration of any Leftist subject. Corners shouldn't be fucking cut on this shit.
bro if dirt-poor fucking farmers and industrial workers could read marx and lenin, you can stand to listen to a 1-hour long youtube video. holy shit.
Lol, at this point you’re just demanding someone does the hard work so you don’t have to. You’re apparently not even willing to search youtube, instead attacking the handful of links I posted just to prove that what you’re asking for already exists. There are many other videos, some of them are even animated!
At some point if you’re truly someone who wants to build a revolution it’s gonna take actual work. Learning from what revolutionaries of the past thought, from what they tried, their successes and failures, is a key part of that work. It’s how we make ourselves better comrades. It doesn’t matter if it’s a 150 year old book, a YouTube video, or a fucking manga, a dedicated revolutionary would be willing to put in the work.
Parenti is a great read, writes in a very accessible manner. Honestly I think Lenin is very approachable, his language isn’t so dated so much as you need a bit of historical context because he refers to events/groups/individuals you might not be aware of.
i swear to god, if i hear one more dumbass say a variant of “stupid-asses not reading theory” im gonna cum down their fucking throat.
Hey, how about you read some theory