Anti-communism is an open door to fascism. Vulgar anti-communism IS fascism.
The Soviet Union and The People's Republic of China are #1 and #2 for the greatest reductions in poverty and improvements to living standards in human history.
The sparrows were considered a pest and the policy to exterminate them was clearly a bad one, but you know what? Trying to exterminate pests that you see eating your food and having it backfire isn't exactly a deliberate crime against humanity. Compare with capitalism which actually is implicated by famines of greed like Bengal and Ireland.
Why did the US exterminate the buffalo? Were they eating your food? Were you trying to increase the food supply when you were doing it? Or were you trying to starve an entire continent of people so you could kick over their last dying armies and fertilize your crops with their remains?
The native Americans were not seen as citizens at that time. They were driven out. This was reprehensible.
Fyi this is how all territory, on the planet, was acquired.
Remember ghengis Khan? The whole shape of China is the result of MASSIVE imperialism and conquest. Neither ghengis (or the many other conquesting leaders of China, including mao) or Jackson are alive now, so their actions are historical in nature.
The difference is china did that to their own people, through incompetence, not though land acquisition.
Be clear: I'm not advocating imperialism, but there is a certain difference between killing millions of people through displacement, and killing millions of YOUR OWN PEOPLE through idiocy.
Especially since the four pests campaign occurred less than 100 years ago.
Also great whataboutism, I never claimed america was the gold standard, only that china and the Soviet union certainly don't own the crown.
Be clear: I'm not advocating imperialism, but there is a certain difference between killing millions of people through displacement, and killing millions of YOUR OWN PEOPLE through idiocy.
Man I'm sorry you had to see that bastard demonstrate how much of an irredeemable piece of shit he is. America is a demonic state built on stolen land, may it be destroyed and the land returned to the original owners, the indigenous peoples.
Can't get any more based than that. Infinite respect for you and your organization's bravery in struggling against such a horrible fucking country. Truly inspirational!
The legacy of the american empire and its running dog allies have done more than enough to earn the rage of every single human being on earth several times over. Utterly detestable.
You're arguing with somebody who's employing the classic fascist "but the communists killed THEIR OWN people, it's less bad to murder people from a racial outgroup" trope. That's literally what they said. They claim to be an anarchist, yet their point hinges on a pure "blood and soil" reasoning, where genocide is just "land accquisition". Absolute Generalplan Ost hours in that post.
Yes, and then you did apologetics for a genocide by claiming it wasn't as bad because the victims weren't citizens of the state doing the genocide, which is:
Obviously I believe in nation states, have you looked out the window? The earth is covered with them holy shit. Doesn't mean I think america is "clean" or something.
I understand that your comprehension is limited, but that's not what I said. The only way you can believe that one is worse than the other is if you fundamentally believe that nation-state is a justified and valid concept. Otherwise, one can't be worse than the other. Instead, you established a hierarchical ordering in your own logic, in which killing non-citizens is lesser than killing citizens.
So you don't actually hold any convictions? You just say whatever is convenient to you at the time? One day you're against nation-states, the next you're for them, as long as it is expedient to your argument? Neat. Wish I could live without a spine.
The native Americans were not seen as citizens at that time. They were driven out.
the colonization of america is the greatest act of genocide through all of human history. saying the native americans were just 'driven out' is fucking demonic. then again, i guess by your logic it's fine, since the europeans weren't killing 'their own' people
It is straight up fascist ideology to speak about violence and conquest as being innate human traits and the natural order of history. It's fucking wrong, by the way. And likewise this talk of human life being worth differently if it's "one of your own people" versus an "other" being killed.
wHaTaBouTiSM
The cynicism with which your accusations are made is fair criticism.
Do you not understand a difference between evaluating the merit of a national project in general and, within the context of evaluating one such project, prioritizing the moral importance of that country's own people over humanity in general?
Put another way, giving moral priority to citizens and considering the butchering of "non-citizens" a lesser crime (even when those people were citizens who had their citizenship stripped away from them) is reactionary. Practical priority is a little different because logistical limitations are real, but these people are just excusing literal ethnic cleansing.
they aren't a paragon of social justice or elevating the masses
Very rich coming from a "person" who minimized one of the worst racially motivated settler colonial genocides in the history of crackers so he could mental gymnasticize "China le bad" for internet points.
Fyi this is how all territory, on the planet, was acquired.
Literal fascist talking point, and baby-level understanding of history.
You'd do well to remember that Mao never fought outside of China.
Remember ghengis Khan? The whole shape of China is the result of MASSIVE imperialism and conquest.
Congratulations, you know 1 fact about Asian history. Meanwhile, 90% of Chinese live in lands that were part of the Han state, 1500 years before Genghis.
No one here is saying that Communist China or the USSR didn't make mistakes. If you compare them to the west, the difference is that after the first 30 years, you no longer had famines in the socialist countries. The capitalist countries, however, still had famines an embarrassing length of time after their founding- although some of that was deliberate colonial violence like the Winston Churchill administration stealing and withholding grain from Bengal as redundant strategic reserves, and killing 5 million people in just a few years.
If you see history as anything more than a collection of random facts, you can apply patterns to things that you can draw conclusions from- like "socialist states have vastly outperformed capitalist states in terms of relative development and improvements in general welfare".
First, yeah, sure, Mongolians saw things through modern Euro-centric racism to say "we are all the same, there are no Mongolians or Chinese, only backwards Asians". Second, your defense of Native American genocide basically boils down to "your honor, we didn't consider them human when we genocided them"
I don't understand your first point. Are you suggesting the ghengis khan's conquest was informed by "euro-centric" learnings or influence? I'll need a source on that.
Re the second point I wasn't claiming anyone was or wasn't human, I was indicating that expansionist conquest occured in an era of expansionist conquest. A trait not solely owned by Europeans/Americans. China has a massive history of conflict along ethnic and tribal lines, and a massive history of conquest too.
Conquest, war and "dehumanization" is evidenced by their borders, everyone's borders, everywhere. Throughout history.
The post was very clearly saying that Ghengis Khan and the post-Mongolian Chinese state is a worse form of conquest and murder because they were conquering and killing their own people.
But the US was killing Native Americans which weren't citizens, so it is not as bad as killing your own people like the Mongolian/Chinese/Mao.
Uh, ghengis Khan certainly killed a lot of non mongols. He pretty strongly justified the conquest on such terms. (that, and loyalty/fealty). Many leaders through time did.
All that said, consider football.
A point is a point, but an own goal stings worse. Not because the opposing players are subhuman, but you were supposed to do best by your own.
Bloodthirsty racist crackers using muh football rules to explain why America being born from a genocide of over 56 million people "wasn't that bad akshually":
I was referring to "soccer" but you do you.
I've repeatedly made clear that Andrew Jackson, and America at large are "bad, akshually".
The whole point is that china is "bad, akshually". TOO. Tge whole thing I ever replied to was on that point, America was brought up to me, as a whataboutism.
For those in the back: Andrew Jackson was a genocidal monster.
The whole point is that china is "bad, akshually". TOO.
You're implying that a murderous white supremacist hegemonic nation state that was born out of racially motivated genocide against the rightful custodians of the land that hasn't ended to this very day is the same as Mao's China making a grave mistake and causing a deadly famine?
Congratulations, in your stupidity and willingness to simp for NATO talking points, you have denied a genocide! FUCK YOU, EAT SHIT AND DIE
I'm a socialist you fucking loser. Shut the fuck up and think before assuming I'm a fascist for disagreeing with you.
The Soviet Union and The People's Republic of China are #1 and #2 for the greatest reductions in poverty and improvements to living standards in human history.
Did I say you were a fascist? I said that anti-communism leaves the door open to fascists. And I said that ideologically vulgar anti-communism is the underpinning of fascism. These are both true. If you make your community about anti-communism, fascists will come. And fascism gains power when the capitalist class is in crisis and chooses a less profitable closed society that keeps the left in check rather than see their power realistically challenged.
You can laugh all you want at easily researched facts but they're still true. China. I'll edit when I find one for the USSR that isn't a lecture or a book, but in the meantime reflect on how they went from feudal farmers to the first people in space within a generation Oh. And they did it without the stolen wealth of entire continents in the southern hemisphere.
Only because they saw Germany as a threat. You do realise they still put gay people in camps, right? That they deported entire ethnic groups they didn't like? They were only marginally better than the Nazis.
There's your mask off, peanut gallery. This is literal holocaust denial you're seeing. You opened the door to fascists and they're among you. You're defederating on the ideological grounds of anti-communism with the stated motivation of making it more of a safe place for queer voices. You're inviting in the kind of people who want us dead.
There it is! Yes they saw Germany as a threat to their existence because Hitler wanted to genocide them. The west saw the Nazis as an opportunity to destroy the first socialist project.
You understand how you're doing apologia for Nazis now?
So the arrest and torture of Jewish doctors under Stalin's rule never happened apparently. And he never murdered Solomon Mikhoels because of his antisemitic paranoia apparently. And religious Jews were never pathologised and forcibly converted to atheism apparently.
Good to see you live in a fairytale land where everything about your favourite dictator is a CIA lie or whatever.
Naziism is still alive and well as an ideology, unfortunately. And the Allies helped defeat Naziism too (for their own self interested reasons too) so it's not like the USSR should be accredited with defeating an entire ideology
Oh so the USSR fighting Nazis because they faced annihilation is somehow less than the allies begrudging support for them because they ultimately agreed with the Nazis ideologically but feared their destabilizing effect on global capital?
FFS you people are so cowardly. You can't just come out and say you think the Nazis were fine for combating communism because that is unpopular so you go through all these mental gymnastics.
You can't just come out and say you think the Nazis were fine for combating communism because that is unpopular so you go through all these mental gymnastics.
Stop putting words in my mouth you little shit, you KNOW I don't think that.
You do realise they still put gay people in camps, right? That they deported entire ethnic groups they didn't like? They were only marginally better than the Nazis.
Are you describing the western allies? Shit sucked back then from all directions for LGBT people. The United States genocide of indigenous people directly inspired the holocaust, Lebensraum was the european spinoff of "manifest destiny"
You just were like "what about their treatment of gay people" I'm just pointing out the allies were shit too, and worse in a lot of other ways including genocide
Whataboutism is when you provide historical context.
"The USSR was uniquely evil"
"They weren't unique in any way and in fact compared to their contemporaries they were oftentimes better"
"Comparing one thing to another thing in order to evaluate it? That's whataboutism!"
He would actually put me in a gulag for being queer, an anarchist, and an Esperantist; but if historical revisionism is what helps you sleep at night, you do you.
Maybe anarchists shouldn't have murdered Bolsheviks and attempted to enact terror plots against the Soviet Union and they wouldn't have gotten liquidated by the USSR?
It's funny how you use the word "murder" to describe the anarchists' killing and then switch to a euphemism ("liquidate") the second you talk about the USSR's killing.
Liquidate doesn't refer to murder though. Liquidation means to dissolve or disband political organisations, which is what I was referring to.
If you think that I'm euphemising the fact that the Red Army destroyed the Black Army then your implicit bias is showing because they were at war with one another. Murder isn't something that is applied to enemy armies which have engaged one another in war. I'm not complaining about the Black Army killing Bolsheviks in war. That's what happens.
I'm talking about literal extrajudicial murders of Bolsheviks by the Makhnovist secret police.
Edit:
I forgot that I'm talking to an anarchist.
Sources:
Nestor Makhno in the Russian Civil War by Malet, pp. 51-52, 103-104, and 129. Before you say it, here's Malet in his own words in the preface:
It will be clear from the book that the author has some sympathy with Makhno and his ideals, but he trusts that this has not led to gross distortion or untruth.
Kontrrazvedka: The Story of the Makhnovist Intelligence Service by Azarov, pp 32-33 but there's plenty more in there too. Before you say it about him, too:
Azarov was active in the Social-Democratic Party of Ukraine but left that party when its anarchist fractions were expelled.
In 1999 Azarov was one of the founders of the political party “Union of Anarchists of Ukraine” (SAU). At the founding congress Azarov was elected chair of the the chief executive organ of the SAU.
mein freund you are none of those, you post on the internet and watch v*ush (🤮) streams, anarchists irl are jailed and murdered in the west for trying to make the world a better place, would you like a book recommendation?
Also we already did make a part of this reality. We raised twice as much as we had hoped for with the summer fund raiser. We are doing much more.
Holy shit man congratulations, that is some spectacular work to say the least! A huge step on the journey to build a better future in the face of the american empire. You and your comrade's struggle is truly inspirational.
Absolutely! Fuck the lot of them, its just beyond absurdity that some fucking v*ush (🤮) fans whose "praxis" amounts to sitting in front of the computer to watch some state dept. failson assclown parrot imperialist talking points and then nothing else have the utter gall to scoff at the work of people who fight an anti-imperialist struggle for their communities day in and day out, breathing life into liberation theory and carrying the torch of communism's great legacy against all odds so their people may finally be free.
And they fucking dare dismiss the fact that the people they look down on lost ancestors, family and friends, dying in agony because of the white supremacist status quo that they have tied their egoes towards running apologetics for? To call people "tankies lol" because they criticize the country that has a systematic extermination program that kills their loved ones?? What the fuck???
Idk its so unreal, I would not want to come within 500 metres of these sick liberal bastards IRL.
You are, at the very best, a left-com. Get out of your armchair and start building a parallel power structure instead of watching vaush and bashing countries whose existence you can only influence insofar as to urge your congressman to nuke them.
And then he pushed the Doctors' Plot conspiracy theories and had Jews arrested and tortured for crimes they didn't commit, but I guess that didn't happen in your little fantasy land.
Even in Stalin's time there was collective leadership. Misunderstandinga on that subject are caused by a lack of comprehension of the real nature and organisation of the communist party structure. Stalin, although holding wide powers, was merely the captain of the team and it seems obvious that Khrushchev will be the next captain.
Today I learner that I, a far left anarchist that desires the complete abolition of state and a direct democracy of the people, is an "anti communist clown that would gladly collaborate with fascists". And that apparently worshipping totalitarian dictatorships is the only real form of leftism and is definitely not fascism with a red coat of paint.
In fact, you're actively hoping for an opportunity to do so, just so you could oWn tHe tAnKiEs
a far left anarchist that desires the complete abolition of state
This is litteraly your previous comment. So what are you?
I mean, you're more than welcome to learn from us on Hexbear in good faith, but so far you just came out of the gate swinging, calling everyone a 'tankie' while the more you speak the more clear it gets that you don't know what you're talking about. So don't be surprised when people rightfully dunk on you. I too have a lot to learn but at least I know when to shut up.
You've already proven you don't know shit, don't have to keep doing that. So are you an anarchist or a socialist? Can you even differentiate between the two when it comes to the role of the state?
I'm an anarcho-socialist you whiny piece of shit. Anarchy. is. a. type. of. socialist. theory. I can't believe you call yourself a fucking leftist and don't even know that. It just goes to show how all you tankies are right wing LARPers pretending to be leftist because they like the aesthetics.
Yeah this ain't it chief. Still didn't awnser as to how socialists and anarchists differentiate when it comes to how both ideologies envision the role of the state.
But considering you act like you know all that, maybe explain it to me?
But you know what, on second thought, fuck it. There's no point on dunking you any further, it would just make me feel as pathetic as you. So far you've called yourself a socialist, an anarchist, an anarcho-socialist, without even giving a hint of having ever read anything that makes you able of even identifying what's what.
The Soviet Union ended the Holocaust, the only thing standing between the annihilation of Korea was the DPRK, without the communist party China would have been erased and become japanese territory. The people most able and willing to end genocide at the end of the day are communists.
Ahh yes, the “genocide” triggered by a drought and kulaks burning crops out of spite where more Russians and Kazakhs died than Ukrainians. And the “genocide” where Uyghurs were exempted from the one child rule and have an increasing population, and there’s zero evidence (or even claims) of any killings.
"Double Genocide" historiography is literally Nazi propaganda. It's not even a view supported by actual academic researchers & historians who are critical of the states which you are talking about.
Prove it. Hit me with your state dep drivel, come one let's see your zenz sources. Let's see some radio free Asia or some long since debunked malcalculus of 50 bazillion dead that counts "people that would have been born" and dead nazis.
Stop putting words in my mouth you little shit, you KNOW I don't think that
Remarkable how you apply a completely different standard of behaviour to others than you do to yourself. The person you replied to literally has an anarchist flag in their profile picture and, if you wanted to, you'd be able to confirm that they're an anarchist based on their comment history. Or you could have just asked. Heck, you could have even told them straight up that you're skeptical of their political orientation and you'd probably get a straight answer out of them in response.
I wonder what an anarchist would have to say about a person who egregiously and wilfully applies double standards? They probably wouldn't care. It's not like it's a big deal to anarchists to avoid the imposing of unjust hierarchies in the attempt to coerce others into silence and/or being banned via guilt-by-association. It's probably completely fine.
Neither do you it seems. I'm going to assume a couple of things here, correct me if I'm wrong.
You live in a western country
you're no older than 25
you've never read any theory. No Engels, no Marx, no Lenin, no Luxembourg, nothing.
you spend a lot of time watching streamers. probably v*ush, which is the only one I've heard of so far and god do I wish I didn't.
your political and ideological views are pretty much a direct representation of the views of said streamers.
anything to the left of you, you consider 'wrongthink', and attempt to shut down your own learning process by calling everyone who says things you don't like a tankie.
you don't like tankies because they are 'authoritarian' but refuse to learn what the question of authority actually entails. I'll link Engels' 'On authority' so you can read that and see where we're coming from (https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm). There are also audiobooks because I'm assuming you won't read this either.
you can't spell 'bourgeoisie' without looking it up on the internet.
You believe that communists stabbed Makhnovia in the back
You believe that Makhnovia was an example of anarchist principals put into practice
You have no idea that the Makhnovists had a secret police, that they engaged in the summary execution of political rivals, and that committed genocidal acts against German settlers and especially Mennonites in Ukraine
You believe that communists stabbed the Spanish Republic in the back
You believe that major parts of the Spanish Republic are an example of anarchism put into practice
You have no idea that the Spanish Republic had forced labour camps, extreme levels of control over labourers and the movement and spending habits of the people, zero desire to lose their colonial holdings over the part of Morocco that was their colony because they aspired to colonise more of Africa and that they rejected overtures from the Moroccan people who sued for independence with very favourable conditions for the Spanish Republic, and all the apparatuses of state that you would expect from a typical government
You are unable to provide a functional definition of fascism without looking it up
The Soviet Union and The People's Republic of China are #1 and #2 for the greatest reductions in poverty and improvements to living standards in human history.
This is a factually true statement. You should check it.
Stalin would've thrown you in a gulag for being a "sexual deviant" if you lived in the Soviet Union during his reign. In China you are just straight up not allowed to get HRT unless you have a clean criminal record and your ENTIRE FAMILY approves on top of the standard medical gatekeeping. If even one family member disapproves of your transition (which is almost certainly likely considering how popular transphobia is there) the government is like "nope sorry can't help you there" and will throw you in prison if you try to get HRT by other means.
I do not know why the fuck you want to lick boots that would kick you in the face.
So? The europeans were imprisoning and chemically castrating us at the time. It was queer people in the GDR that caused a lot of the social movements that improved Europe on lgbt issues in fact. Here's a great video on that topic.
You are yet another liberal that only views history by comparing it to the present instead of within its correct historical context.
I also don't see what it has to do with the previous factually correct statement. You are desperately diverting away from the point.
Anti-communism is an open door to fascism. Vulgar anti-communism IS fascism.
The Soviet Union and The People's Republic of China are #1 and #2 for the greatest reductions in poverty and improvements to living standards in human history.
Where are all the sparrows, tankie?
Where are all the Native Americans, dronie?
The sparrows were considered a pest and the policy to exterminate them was clearly a bad one, but you know what? Trying to exterminate pests that you see eating your food and having it backfire isn't exactly a deliberate crime against humanity. Compare with capitalism which actually is implicated by famines of greed like Bengal and Ireland.
Why did the US exterminate the buffalo? Were they eating your food? Were you trying to increase the food supply when you were doing it? Or were you trying to starve an entire continent of people so you could kick over their last dying armies and fertilize your crops with their remains?
The native Americans were not seen as citizens at that time. They were driven out. This was reprehensible.
Fyi this is how all territory, on the planet, was acquired.
Remember ghengis Khan? The whole shape of China is the result of MASSIVE imperialism and conquest. Neither ghengis (or the many other conquesting leaders of China, including mao) or Jackson are alive now, so their actions are historical in nature.
The difference is china did that to their own people, through incompetence, not though land acquisition.
Be clear: I'm not advocating imperialism, but there is a certain difference between killing millions of people through displacement, and killing millions of YOUR OWN PEOPLE through idiocy.
Especially since the four pests campaign occurred less than 100 years ago.
Also great whataboutism, I never claimed america was the gold standard, only that china and the Soviet union certainly don't own the crown.
https://alphahistory.com/chineserevolution/a-soviet-scientist-on-the-four-pests-campaign-1964/
Edit: "lol ghengis Khan old" yeah, he's dead and so are his "voters". So is Andrew Jackson and his "voters".
Edit edit: don't decry me for being "jingoistic" in a thread where I called a guy out for simping for a nation state in the first place.
Memory holing Covid already
Lmao great point
As someone with a lot of indigenous family friends and comrades I sincerely hope you get in the fucking pit
@ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone This is the kind of shit you are cool with? Seriously?
Like this user is literally justifying genocide.
Man I'm sorry you had to see that bastard demonstrate how much of an irredeemable piece of shit he is. America is a demonic state built on stolen land, may it be destroyed and the land returned to the original owners, the indigenous peoples.
We're actually building an organization to do just that.
Can't get any more based than that. Infinite respect for you and your organization's bravery in struggling against such a horrible fucking country. Truly inspirational!
We are traveling the red road and doing our best to fulfill the vision set out by Crazy Horse.
The red nation will rise from the ashes of this forsaken empire.
Your cause is righteous, the enemy will be defeated, victory will be yours!
My hatred is pure.
The legacy of the american empire and its running dog allies have done more than enough to earn the rage of every single human being on earth several times over. Utterly detestable.
intentional genocide is far, far worse. and every legal system recognizes this. it's literally the difference between manslaughter and murder.
You're arguing with somebody who's employing the classic fascist "but the communists killed THEIR OWN people, it's less bad to murder people from a racial outgroup" trope. That's literally what they said. They claim to be an anarchist, yet their point hinges on a pure "blood and soil" reasoning, where genocide is just "land accquisition". Absolute Generalplan Ost hours in that post.
oh I know, just trying to get them to acknowledge the fact
Used as a retort to a "Soviet Russia and china saved the world" comment.
Yes, and then you did apologetics for a genocide by claiming it wasn't as bad because the victims weren't citizens of the state doing the genocide, which is:
No, I indicated that conquest happened. I never ever supported it.
Conquest happened on every square meter of land on this planet.
I also indicated an own-goal is fucking embarrassing,
And if you don't care about that, an own goal of that magnitude takes one out of the running for "elevating the world" or whatever.
No one is a hero, no one is forgiven. All nation states are trash, some just do trash special.
The only way this makes sense is if you believe in the concept of the nation-state.
Obviously I believe in nation states, have you looked out the window? The earth is covered with them holy shit. Doesn't mean I think america is "clean" or something.
I understand that your comprehension is limited, but that's not what I said. The only way you can believe that one is worse than the other is if you fundamentally believe that nation-state is a justified and valid concept. Otherwise, one can't be worse than the other. Instead, you established a hierarchical ordering in your own logic, in which killing non-citizens is lesser than killing citizens.
You should ask your parents about that
Soviet Russia did save the world. Did you forget about World War 2?
So you don't actually hold any convictions? You just say whatever is convenient to you at the time? One day you're against nation-states, the next you're for them, as long as it is expedient to your argument? Neat. Wish I could live without a spine.
the colonization of america is the greatest act of genocide through all of human history. saying the native americans were just 'driven out' is fucking demonic. then again, i guess by your logic it's fine, since the europeans weren't killing 'their own' people
As someone with many comrades from the Lakota and Navajo nations and more I cannot express how fucking mad I am right now about this whole thing.
I would commit unspeakable acts of violence on these motherfuckers if they said any of this to my face.
I'm pretty sure it was simply a gentlemen's agreement where the native peoples decided to make space for the colonists by moving out of the way /s
It is straight up fascist ideology to speak about violence and conquest as being innate human traits and the natural order of history. It's fucking wrong, by the way. And likewise this talk of human life being worth differently if it's "one of your own people" versus an "other" being killed.
The cynicism with which your accusations are made is fair criticism.
deleted by creator
Don't forget the gnats dude
The prioritization of the importance of "their own people" is transparently jingoistic thinking that you are just glossing over
I replied to someone simping for a nation state. Pot, kettle.
Do you not understand a difference between evaluating the merit of a national project in general and, within the context of evaluating one such project, prioritizing the moral importance of that country's own people over humanity in general?
Put another way, giving moral priority to citizens and considering the butchering of "non-citizens" a lesser crime (even when those people were citizens who had their citizenship stripped away from them) is reactionary. Practical priority is a little different because logistical limitations are real, but these people are just excusing literal ethnic cleansing.
Actions China undertook as well. Arguably still undertaking.
Point being they aren't a paragon of social justice or elevating the masses.
Which is why I replied in the first place.
Very rich coming from a "person" who minimized one of the worst racially motivated settler colonial genocides in the history of crackers so he could mental gymnasticize "China le bad" for internet points.
Literal fascist talking point, and baby-level understanding of history.
You'd do well to remember that Mao never fought outside of China.
Congratulations, you know 1 fact about Asian history. Meanwhile, 90% of Chinese live in lands that were part of the Han state, 1500 years before Genghis.
No one here is saying that Communist China or the USSR didn't make mistakes. If you compare them to the west, the difference is that after the first 30 years, you no longer had famines in the socialist countries. The capitalist countries, however, still had famines an embarrassing length of time after their founding- although some of that was deliberate colonial violence like the Winston Churchill administration stealing and withholding grain from Bengal as redundant strategic reserves, and killing 5 million people in just a few years.
If you see history as anything more than a collection of random facts, you can apply patterns to things that you can draw conclusions from- like "socialist states have vastly outperformed capitalist states in terms of relative development and improvements in general welfare".
First, yeah, sure, Mongolians saw things through modern Euro-centric racism to say "we are all the same, there are no Mongolians or Chinese, only backwards Asians". Second, your defense of Native American genocide basically boils down to "your honor, we didn't consider them human when we genocided them"
I don't understand your first point. Are you suggesting the ghengis khan's conquest was informed by "euro-centric" learnings or influence? I'll need a source on that.
Re the second point I wasn't claiming anyone was or wasn't human, I was indicating that expansionist conquest occured in an era of expansionist conquest. A trait not solely owned by Europeans/Americans. China has a massive history of conflict along ethnic and tribal lines, and a massive history of conquest too.
Conquest, war and "dehumanization" is evidenced by their borders, everyone's borders, everywhere. Throughout history.
No one is clean, and no one is a hero.
The post was very clearly saying that Ghengis Khan and the post-Mongolian Chinese state is a worse form of conquest and murder because they were conquering and killing their own people.
But the US was killing Native Americans which weren't citizens, so it is not as bad as killing your own people like the Mongolian/Chinese/Mao.
Uh, ghengis Khan certainly killed a lot of non mongols. He pretty strongly justified the conquest on such terms. (that, and loyalty/fealty). Many leaders through time did.
All that said, consider football. A point is a point, but an own goal stings worse. Not because the opposing players are subhuman, but you were supposed to do best by your own.
Bloodthirsty racist crackers using muh football rules to explain why America being born from a genocide of over 56 million people "wasn't that bad akshually":
I was referring to "soccer" but you do you. I've repeatedly made clear that Andrew Jackson, and America at large are "bad, akshually".
The whole point is that china is "bad, akshually". TOO. Tge whole thing I ever replied to was on that point, America was brought up to me, as a whataboutism.
For those in the back: Andrew Jackson was a genocidal monster.
You're implying that a murderous white supremacist hegemonic nation state that was born out of racially motivated genocide against the rightful custodians of the land that hasn't ended to this very day is the same as Mao's China making a grave mistake and causing a deadly famine?
why is it worse to attempt to prevent famine, and fail, than it is to attempt to genocide people and succeed?
"Killing your own people" Is literally Nazi discourse.
It's how they differentiated between Germans and German Jews. They weren't really 'their people', so it wasn't bad.
Do better.
Ok va*sh, calm down.
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I'm a socialist you fucking loser. Shut the fuck up and think before assuming I'm a fascist for disagreeing with you.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Did I say you were a fascist? I said that anti-communism leaves the door open to fascists. And I said that ideologically vulgar anti-communism is the underpinning of fascism. These are both true. If you make your community about anti-communism, fascists will come. And fascism gains power when the capitalist class is in crisis and chooses a less profitable closed society that keeps the left in check rather than see their power realistically challenged.
You can laugh all you want at easily researched facts but they're still true. China. I'll edit when I find one for the USSR that isn't a lecture or a book, but in the meantime reflect on how they went from feudal farmers to the first people in space within a generation
Oh. And they did it without the stolen wealth of entire continents in the southern hemisphere.
Ah yes, because the best way to defeat fascism is to worship dictatorships lead by power-hungry, totalitarian bigots
Hollow buzzwords aside, the Soviet Union literally did defeat fascism.
Only because they saw Germany as a threat. You do realise they still put gay people in camps, right? That they deported entire ethnic groups they didn't like? They were only marginally better than the Nazis.
There's your mask off, peanut gallery. This is literal holocaust denial you're seeing. You opened the door to fascists and they're among you. You're defederating on the ideological grounds of anti-communism with the stated motivation of making it more of a safe place for queer voices. You're inviting in the kind of people who want us dead.
lol it's amazing, yeah the USSR saw Nazis as a threat, the west saw them as an opportunity. AND THEY ARE DEFENDING THE LATTER HOLY FUCKING SHIT.
There it is! Yes they saw Germany as a threat to their existence because Hitler wanted to genocide them. The west saw the Nazis as an opportunity to destroy the first socialist project.
You understand how you're doing apologia for Nazis now?
So the arrest and torture of Jewish doctors under Stalin's rule never happened apparently. And he never murdered Solomon Mikhoels because of his antisemitic paranoia apparently. And religious Jews were never pathologised and forcibly converted to atheism apparently.
Good to see you live in a fairytale land where everything about your favourite dictator is a CIA lie or whatever.
This has literally nothing to do with my reply, even if I took it at face value which I do not.
You're trying so hard to justify supporting literal Nazis.
I really don't get how you think this diminishes the fact that the soviets defeated nazism
Naziism is still alive and well as an ideology, unfortunately. And the Allies helped defeat Naziism too (for their own self interested reasons too) so it's not like the USSR should be accredited with defeating an entire ideology
Oh so the USSR fighting Nazis because they faced annihilation is somehow less than the allies begrudging support for them because they ultimately agreed with the Nazis ideologically but feared their destabilizing effect on global capital?
FFS you people are so cowardly. You can't just come out and say you think the Nazis were fine for combating communism because that is unpopular so you go through all these mental gymnastics.
Stop putting words in my mouth you little shit, you KNOW I don't think that.
I am not putting words in your mouth I am taking your words to their logical conclusion.
I tried to play nice with you people but I'm fucking done with that.
Are you describing the western allies? Shit sucked back then from all directions for LGBT people. The United States genocide of indigenous people directly inspired the holocaust, Lebensraum was the european spinoff of "manifest destiny"
Just because I hate the USSR doesn't mean that I approve of everything the First World did. Cease your whataboutism.
You just were like "what about their treatment of gay people" I'm just pointing out the allies were shit too, and worse in a lot of other ways including genocide
Whataboutism
Yes, you are doing whataboutism, now stop repeating Nazi shit
Whataboutism is when you provide historical context.
"The USSR was uniquely evil"
"They weren't unique in any way and in fact compared to their contemporaries they were oftentimes better"
"Comparing one thing to another thing in order to evaluate it? That's whataboutism!"
Do better. Educate yourself.
What about deez nuts fuckin nerd
lmao gottem
Just so you know, Stalin still loves you.
He would actually put me in a gulag for being queer, an anarchist, and an Esperantist; but if historical revisionism is what helps you sleep at night, you do you.
Unlike in the west 😉.
I'll pray for you.
I'm in a western country and not in jail, so yeah, unlike in the west.
You seem to be temporally confused...
I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news but our glorious comrade Stalin died quite some time ago.
Eternal glory to our Great Comrade. He is with us always
Rot in hell you tankie piece of shit
Fuck you fascist scum
Says the redfash
It is the nineteenth of august 2023 and Stalin saved the world from fascism
Maybe anarchists shouldn't have murdered Bolsheviks and attempted to enact terror plots against the Soviet Union and they wouldn't have gotten liquidated by the USSR?
Just sayin'
It's funny how you use the word "murder" to describe the anarchists' killing and then switch to a euphemism ("liquidate") the second you talk about the USSR's killing.
Shows how completely brainwashed you are.
Liquidate doesn't refer to murder though. Liquidation means to dissolve or disband political organisations, which is what I was referring to.
If you think that I'm euphemising the fact that the Red Army destroyed the Black Army then your implicit bias is showing because they were at war with one another. Murder isn't something that is applied to enemy armies which have engaged one another in war. I'm not complaining about the Black Army killing Bolsheviks in war. That's what happens.
I'm talking about literal extrajudicial murders of Bolsheviks by the Makhnovist secret police.
Edit:
I forgot that I'm talking to an anarchist.
Sources: Nestor Makhno in the Russian Civil War by Malet, pp. 51-52, 103-104, and 129. Before you say it, here's Malet in his own words in the preface:
Kontrrazvedka: The Story of the Makhnovist Intelligence Service by Azarov, pp 32-33 but there's plenty more in there too. Before you say it about him, too:
mein freund you are none of those, you post on the internet and watch v*ush (🤮) streams, anarchists irl are jailed and murdered in the west for trying to make the world a better place, would you like a book recommendation?
hey now they haven't jailed me yet!
Death to america, may they never succeed!
Death to Amerikkka indeed.
https://www.gofundme.com/f/chunka-luta-summer-fundraiser
We are going to make this a reality.
We travel the Red Road and if you want to join us you are welcome to dm me.
Also we already did make a part of this reality. We raised twice as much as we had hoped for with the summer fund raiser. We are doing much more.
Holy shit man congratulations, that is some spectacular work to say the least! A huge step on the journey to build a better future in the face of the american empire. You and your comrade's struggle is truly inspirational.
It is disheartening though to see people like the OP and the fact they still retain their position on this instance.
Sungmanitu is an indigenous two spirit comrade and to see folks like them dismissed as "tankies" is hurtful
These people are not our allies or comrades and they need to be called out and ostracized because they are harmful to our goals.
Absolutely! Fuck the lot of them, its just beyond absurdity that some fucking v*ush (🤮) fans whose "praxis" amounts to sitting in front of the computer to watch some state dept. failson assclown parrot imperialist talking points and then nothing else have the utter gall to scoff at the work of people who fight an anti-imperialist struggle for their communities day in and day out, breathing life into liberation theory and carrying the torch of communism's great legacy against all odds so their people may finally be free.
And they fucking dare dismiss the fact that the people they look down on lost ancestors, family and friends, dying in agony because of the white supremacist status quo that they have tied their egoes towards running apologetics for? To call people "tankies lol" because they criticize the country that has a systematic extermination program that kills their loved ones?? What the fuck???
Idk its so unreal, I would not want to come within 500 metres of these sick liberal bastards IRL.
You are, at the very best, a left-com. Get out of your armchair and start building a parallel power structure instead of watching vaush and bashing countries whose existence you can only influence insofar as to urge your congressman to nuke them.
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And then he pushed the Doctors' Plot conspiracy theories and had Jews arrested and tortured for crimes they didn't commit, but I guess that didn't happen in your little fantasy land.
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— CIA documents, 1950s
No you're not.
Uh, yes I am? You don't know shit about my political opinions
You're an anti-communist clown that would gladly collaborate with fascists
In fact, you're actively hoping for an opportunity to do so, just so you could oWn tHe tAnKiEs
Eat shit
lol what
Let me rephrase that in a way you might better understand:
You're an anti-communist clown that would gladly collaborate with fascists
In fact, you're actively hoping for an opportunity to do so, just so you could oWn tHe tAnKiEs
Eat shit
Ah shit I just said the same thing @Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net said, ah well guess there isn't any better way to say it
Today I learner that I, a far left anarchist that desires the complete abolition of state and a direct democracy of the people, is an "anti communist clown that would gladly collaborate with fascists". And that apparently worshipping totalitarian dictatorships is the only real form of leftism and is definitely not fascism with a red coat of paint.
Care to show me where I ever said that?
Curious, just a few comments up you said you were a socialist
I am, what are you talking about
This is litteraly your previous comment. So what are you?
I mean, you're more than welcome to learn from us on Hexbear in good faith, but so far you just came out of the gate swinging, calling everyone a 'tankie' while the more you speak the more clear it gets that you don't know what you're talking about. So don't be surprised when people rightfully dunk on you. I too have a lot to learn but at least I know when to shut up.
I'd at least expect you to learn from history rather than slavishly follow piece of shit dictators like Stalin and Mao
You've already proven you don't know shit, don't have to keep doing that. So are you an anarchist or a socialist? Can you even differentiate between the two when it comes to the role of the state?
I'm an anarcho-socialist you whiny piece of shit. Anarchy. is. a. type. of. socialist. theory. I can't believe you call yourself a fucking leftist and don't even know that. It just goes to show how all you tankies are right wing LARPers pretending to be leftist because they like the aesthetics.
Yeah this ain't it chief. Still didn't awnser as to how socialists and anarchists differentiate when it comes to how both ideologies envision the role of the state.
But considering you act like you know all that, maybe explain it to me?
But you know what, on second thought, fuck it. There's no point on dunking you any further, it would just make me feel as pathetic as you. So far you've called yourself a socialist, an anarchist, an anarcho-socialist, without even giving a hint of having ever read anything that makes you able of even identifying what's what.
You're defending a literal fascist right now in this very thread.
Moss is a piece of shit and this instance is full of actual genocide deniers
Like this https://hexbear.net/post/372306
Guilt by association fallacy, as it's completely irrelevant to your OWN genocide denial that's being criticised here.
What exactly are you talking about? Where is my genocide denial?
You're siding with the genocide denialists. Don't pretend you don't know what I'm talking about.
So you have nothing?
Got it.
You're not even siding with genocide deniers you're siding with people that openly admit that genocide is justified.
Shut the fuck up. You are a fucking tankie. You have zero fucking right to lecture me on genocide you little shit.
The Soviet Union ended the Holocaust, the only thing standing between the annihilation of Korea was the DPRK, without the communist party China would have been erased and become japanese territory. The people most able and willing to end genocide at the end of the day are communists.
You're leaving out the fact that the Soviet Union and Communist China carried out/are carrying out genocides of their own.
Ahh yes, the “genocide” triggered by a drought and kulaks burning crops out of spite where more Russians and Kazakhs died than Ukrainians. And the “genocide” where Uyghurs were exempted from the one child rule and have an increasing population, and there’s zero evidence (or even claims) of any killings.
"Double Genocide" historiography is literally Nazi propaganda. It's not even a view supported by actual academic researchers & historians who are critical of the states which you are talking about.
Prove it. Hit me with your state dep drivel, come one let's see your zenz sources. Let's see some radio free Asia or some long since debunked malcalculus of 50 bazillion dead that counts "people that would have been born" and dead nazis.
The only things the Soviets did wrong was not killing enough people actually. Too many Nazis were allowed to survive by the US and UK
Why would a socialist nation do that?
I'm not even a tankie lol you make all these assumptions about me just because of the instance I am on.
This is just the alternate form of "I depicted you as the soyjak", Reddit ass argument
It's what you deserve. Good faith discourse is reserved for those that are willing to engage in it
Yikes!
You:
Also you:
Remarkable how you apply a completely different standard of behaviour to others than you do to yourself. The person you replied to literally has an anarchist flag in their profile picture and, if you wanted to, you'd be able to confirm that they're an anarchist based on their comment history. Or you could have just asked. Heck, you could have even told them straight up that you're skeptical of their political orientation and you'd probably get a straight answer out of them in response.
I wonder what an anarchist would have to say about a person who egregiously and wilfully applies double standards? They probably wouldn't care. It's not like it's a big deal to anarchists to avoid the imposing of unjust hierarchies in the attempt to coerce others into silence and/or being banned via guilt-by-association. It's probably completely fine.
Look at the way you talk, you're a child
Neither do you it seems. I'm going to assume a couple of things here, correct me if I'm wrong.
You believe that communists stabbed Makhnovia in the back
You believe that Makhnovia was an example of anarchist principals put into practice
You have no idea that the Makhnovists had a secret police, that they engaged in the summary execution of political rivals, and that committed genocidal acts against German settlers and especially Mennonites in Ukraine
You believe that communists stabbed the Spanish Republic in the back
You believe that major parts of the Spanish Republic are an example of anarchism put into practice
You have no idea that the Spanish Republic had forced labour camps, extreme levels of control over labourers and the movement and spending habits of the people, zero desire to lose their colonial holdings over the part of Morocco that was their colony because they aspired to colonise more of Africa and that they rejected overtures from the Moroccan people who sued for independence with very favourable conditions for the Spanish Republic, and all the apparatuses of state that you would expect from a typical government
You are unable to provide a functional definition of fascism without looking it up
That’s a pretty big assumption that they’d have enough historical knowledge to even know these were a thing.
Nah robert evans did an episode about Makhno and listening to podcasts is probably all the theory this user needs
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This is a factually true statement. You should check it.
Stalin would've thrown you in a gulag for being a "sexual deviant" if you lived in the Soviet Union during his reign. In China you are just straight up not allowed to get HRT unless you have a clean criminal record and your ENTIRE FAMILY approves on top of the standard medical gatekeeping. If even one family member disapproves of your transition (which is almost certainly likely considering how popular transphobia is there) the government is like "nope sorry can't help you there" and will throw you in prison if you try to get HRT by other means.
I do not know why the fuck you want to lick boots that would kick you in the face.
So? The europeans were imprisoning and chemically castrating us at the time. It was queer people in the GDR that caused a lot of the social movements that improved Europe on lgbt issues in fact. Here's a great video on that topic.
You are yet another liberal that only views history by comparing it to the present instead of within its correct historical context.
I also don't see what it has to do with the previous factually correct statement. You are desperately diverting away from the point.