In a just world, after this is all over members of the Knesset and IOF must be hanged for crimes against humanity and Israel should receive the Rhodesia treatment
I remember how German citizens were forced to see the concentration camps when the Nazis were defeated.
With that in mind, Israelis must be forced to see what they have done. All Israelis have to be forced to see the concentration camp. Conscript IDF members to dig bodies out of the rubble. Make them learn the names of the people they murdered. I don't think support would be nearly as high if they were actually looking.
Sure there's some psychopaths but I really think the majority are just indoctrinated and insulated. They could be reeducated.
Sure there's some psychopaths but I really think the majority are just indoctrinated and insulated. They could be reeducated.
Nah, Stalin got it right the first time when he said they should execute 50,000 Nazi officers; apply his thinking here and maybe this time don't be so conservative.
I don’t think those ideas conflict; Execute every last one of the officers (and the Knesset) and force the non-officers and civilians who supported this to do the cleanup.
Yeah, 50k officers was a small part of the Nazi war machine. Something like 5 million Nazi soldiers died in the war, and undoubtedly there were millions still living at the end. Pre-war Germany had a population of almost 70 million.
They see very little, actually. Soldiers see the people they kill on little screens, from a long distance away and sometimes without color. Civilians back home don't even see that, they just see propaganda.
And it's not just literally seeing that I'm talking about. Can they hear the begging and crying children? Can they smell the burning corpses and open defecation? Taste the air filled choked with silicates and smoke? There's a whole sensory experience of this genocide that they're missing out on. I want to rub it in, make it stick.
IOF Nazis literally post about their crimes on TikTok and Telegram. For the people who follow these channels, you need full on re-education to bring back their empathy - not just a trip to the concentration camp.
Sorry, maybe there was a misunderstanding. By trip to the concentration camp, I meant sending them to Gaza to see what they did, NOT sending them to do forced labor at a concentration camp.
Male them clean up their own mess. With the exception of those hanged after being convicted by a Palestinian war crimes tribunal, IOF members should be treated humanely but not a single one of them should be released as long as there is a single ruined house or a single unwanted military installation left in Palestine.
Well they won't be psychopaths once they've reformed Communism has a long history of re-educating fascists. Unfortunately, social revolution is not as simple as killing every one of your enemies!
They sit on hills in lawn chairs and laugh and cheer as they watch bombs land on children! They have no morals, they are evil and should be executed, they will not feel bad for what they've done
No, they watch bombs land on distant objects. They don't see the children and they'd respond far differently if they had to dig through the rubble for body parts.
Imagine for a second what a mass execution on that scale does to the society that perpetrates it, especially those directly doing it. Killing hollows people out. No matter how justified. It hurts the person doing it. I mean thats an underdiscussed problem with the death penalty, the fact that it turns the executioner into a killer. I dont want to share space with someone capable of the coldness necessary to carry out state murder.
Its simply not practical, even if you think it is justified (and as a strict rehabilitationist, i would argue against that too).
Also institutions of mass execution have a way of self perpetuating.
Im fucking infuriated by this article too. And my first gut is blood for blood too. But when i think about the consequences of that, I know its not right.
I'm sure learning that your family was brutally murdered while seeking humanitarian aid also hurts. I bet it hurts learning that people you knew were crushed under trucks. I bet it hurts knowing that cumskins all over the world make excuses for the barbaric extermination of your people, make excuses for the IOF perpetrating it. I bet it hurts that as people react to the very real deaths of tens of thousands of Palestinians, there are people like you who insist on defending against even the hypothetical idea of Israelis receiving any justice for what they have done in cold-blood and with full intent. I know how it makes me feel, I can't imagine how it might make someone living in this hell feel. Probably like burning the whole ass world down.
What is it with people and this "if you mention something it means youre not focusing on another thing" bullshit. I dont want to assume your neurotype, but it certainly smells like NT bullshit to me.
Eta: you mention in your first reply "justice". Well ive been consistent in thinking justice should never be punitive. Mass killing isnt justice.
Eta2: The hypotheticalness of people here mentioning mass executions doesnt change how i feel about mass executions. I stand by every word i wrote. I am aware of the rage involved because i feel it too. But policy of What Is To Be Done shouldnt be driven by that.
"What you chose to focus on" what do you want me to do? Make five comments calling for blood first to meet your standards of focus ratio? To make the obvious (that im intensly angry about this) clear? Dont assume my thoughts or intent.
I didnt do that because those comments already exist in plenty. I save my posts for original thoughts usually.
Yeah, whenever I see someone post this kind of stuff, I kind of get the urge to have them put in a situation of "your new job is killing the people you want to see killed 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year, they will be tied up and you may use a claw hammer or a machete, but you must meet a daily quota of kills" and see how quickly their enthusiasm wears off.
When you look at the breadth and scope of the groups these people are demanding to be killed, you're realistically looking at creating an entire sector of the economy whose sole purpose is the efficient mass-killing of human beings for years if not decades. Maybe the people advocating these things would be okay with such a society, but it's not the kind I joined the left to fight for, and contrary to what capitalist propaganda would have you believe, it's not the kind that successful revolutionaries have historically created.
I'm certain a lot of them only support it in an abstract sense and don't grasp what they're actually supporting. Internal media doesn't show the bodies being dug out of the rubble or the literal thousands of mutilated children or interviews with the survivors or the other horrors in the Gaza concentration camp. I'm certain if we rubbed it in that the crimes would sink in. They're still human, they just aren't seeing.
Served in the IDF to drop bombs from thousands of feet away or inside drone bases miles away or inside armored vehicles with only screens to see the world with. The actual boots-on-the-ground engagement is low by design.
There's a difference between knowing and knowing. The lesson doesn't sink in without the full sensory experience. Even the targets are chosen by the targeting AI Gospel, so they get to offload their guilt into Just Following Orders.
It's not natural for people to be like this. They have to be carefully cultivated and propagandized at all times, not just when they're growing up but their entire lives. The conditioning can be broken.
They've had plenty of chances to educate themselves. If I can see right from wrong halfway around the world they have no excuse. They have access to everything I do. If they can hear the constant airstrikes, see the plumes of smoke, and just go one with their day? They are as guilty as if they are pulling the triggers themselves.
Not to mention the mandatory military service means a decent chunk are pulling triggers themselves. 0 sympathy for Israeli occupiers. Ignorance of the consequences of your actions is no excuse. You can't drop a bomb on a crowded city and tell yourself "I sure am glad I hit exactly what I was aiming at and didn't kill anyone else!".
Ah fair enough, I misunderstood your point and came in a little hot. I still think certain members of the IOF (mainly pilots but pretty much any one directly involved in the genocide) should get the . Another example are the IOF foot soldiers who are walking through the rubble of a city, the stench of death permeating the air, while they are laughing and taking selfies. They are already up close and personal with the atrocities being committed. If they had an iota of sympathy for the Palestinian people they would have defected, , or done some drastic protest akin to what Aaron Bushnell did.
It takes more than sympathy to defect, that takes courage. The penalty is almost certain death or worse.
Aaron Bushnell is far braver than us. How can we comdemn cowards to death for being too afraid to betray their rulers when we, too, are choosing to not throw our bodies into the gears of the empire?
You definitely aren't aware of Zionist Telegrams that show nothing but mutilated Palestinian corpses full of comments in Hebrew mocking the bodies as they get desecrated by IOF goons.
They know. And not only do they know, they fucking love it. They delight in seeing dead Palestinians. The sight of a dead Palestinian getting their fallen body desecrated and organs harvested brings a shit-eating grin to these ghouls' faces.
And how many people does that actually represent? Many tens of thousands I'm sure! But is the average Israeli visiting those Telegrams? I doubt it. The majority just don't think about it, same as every genocide.
And what of popular Israeli talkshows where the hosts say Gaza should be razed to the ground with the entire audience applauding? Are they just "tens of thousands?"
Those talk shows don't show the bodies for a reason.
And you certainly can't smell through the TV.
You're really underestimating human empathy. People get PTSD from working in slaughterhouses, actual human bodies would break through the standard programming. Yes, there are a lot of genocidal freaks, but I just don't believe most of the war's supporters really understand what they're supporting.
I believe the majority of the israeli people would clap and guffaw when seeing what the idf has done, i think their indoctienation unironically goes deeper than ww2 germans
Palestinian people are imprisoned in a city, prevented from leaving, denied access to food, water, medicine, and fuel, constantly bombed and massacred, and the vast majority of them have never been convicted of crimes. How is this not a concentration camp, exactly?
I stay with the interpretation of the leader of my country who already told Abbas that those comparisons are bullshit. Not a "holocaust"... Not "concentration camps"...
Hey, South Africa and Namibia both say "shut the fuck up KKKracker"
Thanks. I stay with the interpretation of the leader of my country who already told Abbas that those comparisons are bullshit. Not a "holocaust"... Not "concentration camps"...
I assume your country is Germany, a country that has previously had problems with their citizens trusting their leader instead of thinking for themselves. Could your leader have a political bias that causes him to twist language around?
As to what words we'll use, we'll continue to use the word genocide as history proves us right. Germany started committing a genocide long before the Wannsee conference and continued committing one throughout the duration of WW2.
You realize how fucking stupid you sound arguing that a state has to hit some kind of deranged genocide quota before we can start treating it as a genocide right?
In a just world, after this is all over members of the Knesset and IOF must be hanged for crimes against humanity and Israel should receive the Rhodesia treatment
I remember how German citizens were forced to see the concentration camps when the Nazis were defeated.
With that in mind, Israelis must be forced to see what they have done. All Israelis have to be forced to see the concentration camp. Conscript IDF members to dig bodies out of the rubble. Make them learn the names of the people they murdered. I don't think support would be nearly as high if they were actually looking.
Sure there's some psychopaths but I really think the majority are just indoctrinated and insulated. They could be reeducated.
Nah, Stalin got it right the first time when he said they should execute 50,000 Nazi officers; apply his thinking here and maybe this time don't be so conservative.
I don’t think those ideas conflict; Execute every last one of the officers (and the Knesset) and force the non-officers and civilians who supported this to do the cleanup.
Yeah, 50k officers was a small part of the Nazi war machine. Something like 5 million Nazi soldiers died in the war, and undoubtedly there were millions still living at the end. Pre-war Germany had a population of almost 70 million.
Was Stalin a lib 🤔
And instead of killing them Dulles and the rest of the Nazi US government gave them jobs in NATO, the CIA, the West German government etc. very cool.
The more you learn the more the phrase “Nazism wasn’t defeated in WW2, it was internationalised” makes sense.
The Dulles (both John Foster and Allen) really do deserve to rot in hell for what they did to our planet.
Execution is just so wasteful. 🤔
Israelis DO see what they’re doing. They love it. Perhaps except the liberals and the communists that work with Palestinians.
They see very little, actually. Soldiers see the people they kill on little screens, from a long distance away and sometimes without color. Civilians back home don't even see that, they just see propaganda.
And it's not just literally seeing that I'm talking about. Can they hear the begging and crying children? Can they smell the burning corpses and open defecation? Taste the air filled choked with silicates and smoke? There's a whole sensory experience of this genocide that they're missing out on. I want to rub it in, make it stick.
IOF Nazis literally post about their crimes on TikTok and Telegram. For the people who follow these channels, you need full on re-education to bring back their empathy - not just a trip to the concentration camp.
I did also say they should undergo forced labor if you recall. Also be forced to learn the names of their victims.
A tour of the ruins would merely be the first step of a long process. 👍
Sorry, maybe there was a misunderstanding. By trip to the concentration camp, I meant sending them to Gaza to see what they did, NOT sending them to do forced labor at a concentration camp.
I think you're misunderstanding me. I didn't say that sending them on a trip to the concentration camp would be all that should be done.
I just think it's a start. First go to Gaza, learn their names, recover bodies, and then we'll see.
Male them clean up their own mess. With the exception of those hanged after being convicted by a Palestinian war crimes tribunal, IOF members should be treated humanely but not a single one of them should be released as long as there is a single ruined house or a single unwanted military installation left in Palestine.
Okay, wonderful. Everything is clarified and there are no points of contention.
Re-education is far too kind for those psychopaths.
Well they won't be psychopaths once they've reformed
Communism has a long history of re-educating fascists. Unfortunately, social revolution is not as simple as killing every one of your enemies!
They sit on hills in lawn chairs and laugh and cheer as they watch bombs land on children! They have no morals, they are evil and should be executed, they will not feel bad for what they've done
No, they watch bombs land on distant objects. They don't see the children and they'd respond far differently if they had to dig through the rubble for body parts.
I admire your optimism
Imagine for a second what a mass execution on that scale does to the society that perpetrates it, especially those directly doing it. Killing hollows people out. No matter how justified. It hurts the person doing it. I mean thats an underdiscussed problem with the death penalty, the fact that it turns the executioner into a killer. I dont want to share space with someone capable of the coldness necessary to carry out state murder.
Its simply not practical, even if you think it is justified (and as a strict rehabilitationist, i would argue against that too).
Also institutions of mass execution have a way of self perpetuating.
Im fucking infuriated by this article too. And my first gut is blood for blood too. But when i think about the consequences of that, I know its not right.
empathy is one thing, mercy in a situation like this is altogether another
Its not even about mercy for the person who committed the act. I feel like what I wrote that should have made that pretty clear?
I'm sure learning that your family was brutally murdered while seeking humanitarian aid also hurts. I bet it hurts learning that people you knew were crushed under trucks. I bet it hurts knowing that cumskins all over the world make excuses for the barbaric extermination of your people, make excuses for the IOF perpetrating it. I bet it hurts that as people react to the very real deaths of tens of thousands of Palestinians, there are people like you who insist on defending against even the hypothetical idea of Israelis receiving any justice for what they have done in cold-blood and with full intent. I know how it makes me feel, I can't imagine how it might make someone living in this hell feel. Probably like burning the whole ass world down.
Idk what about what I said makes you think I dont know all that.
It isn't about what you do or do not know, it's about what you choose to focus on.
What is it with people and this "if you mention something it means youre not focusing on another thing" bullshit. I dont want to assume your neurotype, but it certainly smells like NT bullshit to me.
Eta: you mention in your first reply "justice". Well ive been consistent in thinking justice should never be punitive. Mass killing isnt justice.
Eta2: The hypotheticalness of people here mentioning mass executions doesnt change how i feel about mass executions. I stand by every word i wrote. I am aware of the rage involved because i feel it too. But policy of What Is To Be Done shouldnt be driven by that.
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"What you chose to focus on" what do you want me to do? Make five comments calling for blood first to meet your standards of focus ratio? To make the obvious (that im intensly angry about this) clear? Dont assume my thoughts or intent.
I didnt do that because those comments already exist in plenty. I save my posts for original thoughts usually.
Yeah, whenever I see someone post this kind of stuff, I kind of get the urge to have them put in a situation of "your new job is killing the people you want to see killed 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year, they will be tied up and you may use a claw hammer or a machete, but you must meet a daily quota of kills" and see how quickly their enthusiasm wears off.
When you look at the breadth and scope of the groups these people are demanding to be killed, you're realistically looking at creating an entire sector of the economy whose sole purpose is the efficient mass-killing of human beings for years if not decades. Maybe the people advocating these things would be okay with such a society, but it's not the kind I joined the left to fight for, and contrary to what capitalist propaganda would have you believe, it's not the kind that successful revolutionaries have historically created.
Nah, the Israelis support this pretty much across the board, acting like they just don't know what they do is incredibly naive.
I'm certain a lot of them only support it in an abstract sense and don't grasp what they're actually supporting. Internal media doesn't show the bodies being dug out of the rubble or the literal thousands of mutilated children or interviews with the survivors or the other horrors in the Gaza concentration camp. I'm certain if we rubbed it in that the crimes would sink in. They're still human, they just aren't seeing.
Everyone in Israel who didn’t immigrate as an adult served in The IDF or went to prison to not serve.
They all know.
Served in the IDF to drop bombs from thousands of feet away or inside drone bases miles away or inside armored vehicles with only screens to see the world with. The actual boots-on-the-ground engagement is low by design.
They're dropping bombs on schools and hospitals they know what they are doing even from thousands of feet away
There's a difference between knowing and knowing. The lesson doesn't sink in without the full sensory experience. Even the targets are chosen by the targeting AI Gospel, so they get to offload their guilt into Just Following Orders.
It's not natural for people to be like this. They have to be carefully cultivated and propagandized at all times, not just when they're growing up but their entire lives. The conditioning can be broken.
there is very small portion (5-10%) who aren't completely brainwashed/break through the indoctrination.
I'm aware.
I think we could get those numbers up if they were forced to really understand what they have done, to see and hear and smell the genocide.
They've had plenty of chances to educate themselves. If I can see right from wrong halfway around the world they have no excuse. They have access to everything I do. If they can hear the constant airstrikes, see the plumes of smoke, and just go one with their day? They are as guilty as if they are pulling the triggers themselves.
Not to mention the mandatory military service means a decent chunk are pulling triggers themselves. 0 sympathy for Israeli occupiers. Ignorance of the consequences of your actions is no excuse. You can't drop a bomb on a crowded city and tell yourself "I sure am glad I hit exactly what I was aiming at and didn't kill anyone else!".
Do you think I'm absolving them of guilt?
Not at all!
I just think they can be reeducated through direct exposure and forced labor.
Ah fair enough, I misunderstood your point and came in a little hot. I still think certain members of the IOF (mainly pilots but pretty much any one directly involved in the genocide) should get the
. Another example are the IOF foot soldiers who are walking through the rubble of a city, the stench of death permeating the air, while they are laughing and taking selfies. They are already up close and personal with the atrocities being committed. If they had an iota of sympathy for the Palestinian people they would have defected, 
, or done some drastic protest akin to what Aaron Bushnell did.
It takes more than sympathy to defect, that takes courage. The penalty is almost certain death or worse.
Aaron Bushnell is far braver than us. How can we comdemn cowards to death for being too afraid to betray their rulers when we, too, are choosing to not throw our bodies into the gears of the empire?
You definitely aren't aware of Zionist Telegrams that show nothing but mutilated Palestinian corpses full of comments in Hebrew mocking the bodies as they get desecrated by IOF goons.
They know. And not only do they know, they fucking love it. They delight in seeing dead Palestinians. The sight of a dead Palestinian getting their fallen body desecrated and organs harvested brings a shit-eating grin to these ghouls' faces.
And how many people does that actually represent? Many tens of thousands I'm sure! But is the average Israeli visiting those Telegrams? I doubt it. The majority just don't think about it, same as every genocide.
And what of popular Israeli talkshows where the hosts say Gaza should be razed to the ground with the entire audience applauding? Are they just "tens of thousands?"
Those talk shows don't show the bodies for a reason.
And you certainly can't smell through the TV.
You're really underestimating human empathy. People get PTSD from working in slaughterhouses, actual human bodies would break through the standard programming. Yes, there are a lot of genocidal freaks, but I just don't believe most of the war's supporters really understand what they're supporting.
And we should make them. By force.
I believe the majority of the israeli people would clap and guffaw when seeing what the idf has done, i think their indoctienation unironically goes deeper than ww2 germans
Then why isn't it being shown to them on television?
They'd cum too much
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As a German who visited Dachau, shut the fuck up.
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Palestinian people are imprisoned in a city, prevented from leaving, denied access to food, water, medicine, and fuel, constantly bombed and massacred, and the vast majority of them have never been convicted of crimes. How is this not a concentration camp, exactly?
You might want to learn some history of what concentration camps are and what their purpose is. Start with the second Boer War.
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Hey, South Africa and Namibia both say "shut the fuck up KKKracker"
I assume your country is Germany, a country that has previously had problems with their citizens trusting their leader instead of thinking for themselves. Could your leader have a political bias that causes him to twist language around?
As to what words we'll use, we'll continue to use the word genocide as history proves us right. Germany started committing a genocide long before the Wannsee conference and continued committing one throughout the duration of WW2.
You realize how fucking stupid you sound arguing that a state has to hit some kind of deranged genocide quota before we can start treating it as a genocide right?
Shut the fuck up you stupid cracker.
This is why Gaza must be visited.
You need to understand.
https://hexbear.net/post/1319345
Line them up on the walls of Gaza and the west bank