But when the choice is a straight fascist who's talking like he's going to put my queer friends in the fucking ground vs same old America, I'll take same old America a little bit longer so the people I care about don't fucking die in 2 years.
Biden is putting Palestinians in the fucking ground, but they’re not your friends, nor people you care about (our only two options will probably both do this, but we must work with these choices God gave us and ignore this). He put migrants in concentration camps, continued the sanctions regime for the starvation of the citizens of enemy nations, and wrought imperialism across the globe. But this is the “same old America” and Biden is only a “straight fascist” when he comes for the precious Americans at home. Well he did that with the crushing of the rail workers strike and the continuation of the same old poverty and racist systems. Is coming for your queer friends the one thing that makes someone a “straight fascist”? Biden could have used federal authority to work towards the suppression of anti-trans laws in backward states, but he didn’t.
Meanwhile organize, effect change, praxis. All that good jazz.
I love empty words, but tell me, what does this mean when you passively play the electoral game? What is this “effective change” and “praxis” (“all that good jazz”)?
Sucks that it's our choice here, but I don't think y'all are considering what a trump round 2 would look like. And we are playing with fire.
I was told that a second Trump term would see the U.S. pulling out of NATO (objectively good) and a national abortion ban (the Democrats already allowed Roe v. Wade to be repealed, and the defense among them has been that Biden does not have the power to do anything about this, as, woe, he was born into the wrong branch; given Trump would be the president as well, surely he would not have the power to institute such a ban) along with a bunch of unsubstantiated uncreative Hitler 3.0 stuff like “Trump Youth.”
Biden is putting palastinians in the fucking ground and that is a complaint, but voting or not voting in this election doesn't change that. That's not on the table. US is going to commit genocide no matter the winner and it fucking sucks. But what do you want me to do? You want me as a cis straight white man to tell my queer friends that I'm willing to sacrifice their life and safety to make a point? For what? To what end? What's your preferred outcome here?
At the end of the day, I'm not an accelerationist. I have a preferred outcome here, and no amount of wishing for a 3rd choice will change anything. Not choosing ain't gonna stop the choice from being made. And I'll take the, however small, less worse choice than the other.
Voting as well has no effect on your effect you can do in your community. It doesn't effect the orgs your in or whatever activism your up to. The best case scenario is you own the libs and while they scratch their head wondering for the billionth time why we won't vote for them and change nothing, more people suffer than would have otherwise.
I am not willing to sacrifice people, especially knowing the groups targeted will not be me.
The dems have pulled this "You'd better vote for us because the other guy will literally kill you if they win!" thing since the 60s, they've just shifted around the minority group they target with their threats. Please listen to this 8 minute speech by Malcolm X, it's incredibly relevant here.
Biden is putting palastinians in the fucking ground and that is a complaint, but voting or not voting in this election doesn't change that.
Don't you see that's the point? You're accepting the framework of the two party system. God gave us two options and it would be sacrilege to deny him! You're allowing the "harm reduction party" to do harm unchecked, where opposing them in any meaningful way is impossible because it leaves the door open for the other party. You're guaranteeing them unlimited stability so that you can feel good about yourself for "reducing harm" forever. It doesn't matter if you hate the genocide against Palestinians or imperialism if in the end you have the same total political impact as a geriatric suburbanite pig who loves Amerikkka and the Democrats to the core. Again, what is this nebulous "praxis" you referenced?
If your queer friends care more about the potential "harm reduction" done by staying within the lines and allowing the 2.5th Reich to carry on its crimes unchecked than actually promoting independent political organization by driving votes away from the two "options" while there is mass discontent and the potential for a better future either through abstention or voting/campaigning for PSL, the Green Party, etc., then they're not worth it.
I'm allowing the harm reduction party to do harm unchecked, and you are wanting people to suffer so they'll see the error of their liberal ways. What you are advocating for is turning that gun around and firing it until the point is made. I am not okay with sacrificing people to stand on pride. If even one less person would die voting for Biden over trump, that's my choice in this exact moment in time. I am not willing to sacrifice untolds number of people on the gamble that maybe the libs will get it this time.
Yeah dude. And not voting is doing a world of difference. Basically won the revolution already.
Your insulting me for saying i cannot stand on my pride and tell others to sacrifice when I know I will not be the one to suffer. I don't have a choice in the genocide. Voting Biden, voting trump, voting none ultimately changes nothing because we both are small cogs in the machine. We are still comrades, even if you would rather insult me over it.
They aren't the "harm reduction" party though. They are the "A lot of harm" party, and they are trying to scare you by saying that the other party, the "Potentially even more harm" party is worse.
Would you rather be shot in the arm or the leg? Which one? Obviously you'd rather neither one, but you MUST choose one. You must! And you must choose again in 4 years, where it will be your spine or your lung to choose from, but you MUST choose then as well.
I'm sorry, but participating in this system in the hopes that it "buys more time" for the libs to "wake up" is incredibly stupid. That's like participating in bashing someone up in the hopes that the other people bashing them will one day learn their lesson, while you're actively there, participating in the same actions as them. Don't you think that will just encourage them instead of waking them up?
If you want things to change, you start by making it clear that things need to change, instead of grumbling and accepting the status quo. Educating people on demanding more out of the system, (and hopefully much further than that) will do far, far more than just simply going along with the system and accepting the idea that being forced to pick between two actively genocidal parties is in any way acceptable. People vote because they, like yourself, seem to think that there is "no other option." Things will never change if this is how we operate. The way things change is by teaching people that there are alternatives, and they can actually demand things of their government, instead of grovelling and begging, but always falling in line.
Here's that Malcolm X clip again, since you must've missed it the last time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg3dr-o4_fc
I watched the video. I watched it again here. The problem for me is that Malcom X is talking about black folk. He is talking about their block and advocating for essentially self sacrifice at the hands of his "worse option" to make a point. I am not black. Nor am I queer. Nor am I a woman. I am not a target. It is not my sacrifice to give. It is not within my right I believe to tell someone who will suffer that it's necessary to make a point when I know for a fact that I will not suffer. I know for a fact that I wouldn't be a target. I cannot make that decision in good conscious because I am not the one who will pay that price.
How can you honestly be this dense? We've got a dozen people here, all telling you the same thing, and you refuse to get your head out of your own ass and listen to them. VOTING WILL NOT SAVE ANYONE. VOTING ONLY PROVIDES LEGITIMACY TO THIS CORRUPT AND BROKEN SYSTEM THAT HAS GOTTEN THIS BAD DUE TO THIS KIND OF COMPLACENCY. YOU ARE NOT A HERO FOR VOTING FOR A GENOCIDAL WAR CRIMINAL, EVEN IF HE IS GOING UP AGAINST ANOTHER GENOCIDAL WAR CRIMINAL. YOUR VOTE WILL CHANGE NOTHING, AND WILL DO NOTHING EXCEPT STROKE YOUR SMUG EGO. Fuck you.
The best case scenario is you own the libs and while they scratch their heads...
Oh, here's your problem! You are thinking like a child. This is what a child thinks elections are. You'll never understand my position because you don't understand the problem.
Your words are empty to me because i can tell by your attitude you do not "hear" what i am saying, or even hear the why of anything.
How could you? You are too busy deciding that everything, even genocide, must be viewed through the lens of the coming election.
Good god there's gonna be a lot of masked liberals "talking sense to the left" coming up, huh?
Get better copypasta, because "don't you care bout my queer/brown friends?" is already played out.
Biden is putting palastinians in the fucking ground and that is a complaint
You think anyone's gonna take your unprincipled ass seriously when you call genocide a fuckin "complaint", you don't care about queer people motherfucker, you hide behind their struggles trying to maintain your crumbling sense of normalcy
I want Trump to win precisely because liberal cockroaches like you will be forced to pretend to take genocide seriously, and in that way LESS people will indeed suffer, because there will be more pressure to oppose fascism unlike today when even the libs have gone full Nazi
I'd sacrifice every cishet white Amerikan in this country for any oppressed subject-of-empire in the world in a New York minute. Death to the settler empire, death to the DNC. Voting absolutely does affect my community; do you realize that Biden has sent more military surplus through the 1033 program to PDs all over the country than Trump did with the same amount of time? The cops in my city are two steps and another humvee from being a whole-ass new branch of the military, some City Force-type shit, but "voting doesn't affect the orgs in my community", fuckin sure.
I hope to Fuck you're the first one to learn the consequences of your electoralist garbage.
Hey as a queer person, fuck you. Get my community out of your fucking mouth. Biden has not done one single thing for me or for my community. Do not support genocide in the name of "protecting queer people." Genocide does not protect us. Open slaughter of thousands upon thousands of innocent people does not protect us. Hiding behind the queer community in defense of genocide is cowardly and wrong. "Oh yeah well I have a queer friend" is the new white asshole way to say "well I have a black friend!" I am queer and you don't get to use me as an excuse for genocide.
What has genocide Joe done to stop fascist state legislatures from passing anti-trans legislation? What has he done to prevent them from forcing women to give birth? What has he done to protect the victims?
I don't know how to tell you this, but a conservative catholic octogenarian with a lifelong history of supporting racists, homophobes and oligarchs is not going to be a progressive just because there's a D next to his name.
Those are valid complaints, and all day fuck Joe biden, but at the end of the day I am not an accelerationist. I see no argument from a leftist perspective for not voting for our shitty option unless you think things getting worse will make them better faster. What is the outcome you have in mind? Don't vote to stick it to the libs, trump gets elected and then we all suffer that much more? For what?
Your choice isn't between accelerationism or not, it's how funny your buffoon in chief will be.
Considering the last 4 years of actual events, what makes you think your friends will be any safer under Biden than Trump? He hasn't stopped any of the anti-trans legislation during his presidency, or anti-abortion, or anti-immigrant - who are you trying to protect? Who do you think you are protecting by voting 100% Hitler instead of 100% Hitler?
It's the difference between lackluster do nothing, or active harm. Biden hasn't stopped it but he's not using his platform to push it. That's a small difference but it's a difference that effects actual people. Is one person not enough for you? Either all must be saved or just let other people make the choices? If you can't have who you want you don't get the privilege of not getting something. Your going to get something weather you like it or not. And I know I'm not going to be the target under trump. I don't have the right to say the people who would be targets arent worth it.
And how many of these would still be happening under trump? You act like if you don't vote that there's a chance neither will happen. One or the other will become a reality. Which would you rather live in for your immediate future? None isn't an option.
You can make a 99% Hitler vs 100% Hitler argument if you want to, but you shouldn't pretend it's fascism vs no fascism. Zionism is fascism and should be labeled as such.
Zionism is fascism, Biden is a fascist, but Biden ain't the one talking about declaring himself a dictator. Sure it's 99 vs 100% Hitler, but there is no other option. And my morals say that when you have a bad choice and a worse choice, you don't stand on pride and choose none just for the choice to be made for you.
but Biden ain't the one talking about declaring himself a dictator. Sure it's 99 vs 100% Hitler, but there is no other option.
Did Trump ever seriously talk about "declaring himself a dictator"? When you are only given the choices between 99 and 100% Hitler you reject the system and actually utilize the mass discontent instead of voting for the "least bad bad guys" regardless, effectively guaranteeing whatever they do is acceptable as long as they do not become the other guys.
My personal or our group rejection of the system has no actual material effect except to make things worse. You can't just reject society without having the organized structure in place to actively rebel against it. Just not participating does nothing but make things worse.
Voting doesn't stop you from organizing, unionizing and joining local organizations. It does nothing at all but make things worse. Is your argument accelerationist? Do you want things to get bad before getting better? If not I don't see the point in your stance. I don't want to be mean, I don't mean to be rude. I genuinely do not understand. Do you not care what happens tomorrow?
And who has to suffer in the meantime while we see if that gamble pays off? I'm just not willing to make that decision. I can't in good conscious knowing the fact that more people would suffer under trump than Biden. That's my simple calculus.
Biden ain't the one talking about declaring himself a dictator.
This doesn't mean anything unless your head is still filled with magical liberal thinking. Either he has the power and support to be in power indefinitely or he doesn't. People who can and will do coups don't usually care about how you vote.
And my morals say that when you have a bad choice and a worse choice, you don't stand on pride and choose none just for the choice to be made for you.
And my moral tells me that if I don't live in a small pool of like 6 states, there's absolutely no point in thinking about, let alone voting for, who gets to be president. Not all of us live in Georgia or Michigan. And unless you live in one of those 6 states, congrats, you've wasted your time and energy on something you have absolutely no control over.
I think you misunderstood me. I am saying do not just go vote and then chill. Voting does not stop you from organizing, volunteering and getting involved in your local community and leftist orgs. I'm saying voting is not the be all end all. It's not the secret weapon. But it is a small, basically functionless tool for harm reduction.
So you should vote for trump then. If you believe him to be the less harmful of the two options. This is me baiting you to tell me you think trump is a less harmful option. Or did you not understand what harm reduction means? Or was is just not enough people whomst harm would be reduced for you to think it's worth it? Or is the people's whos harm would be reduced not be worthy of it?
I cannot in good conscious as a cis straight man tell my non binary partner that they need to be the sacrifice to the political statement of "sticking it to the libs"
I am not saying shit didn't get worse under Biden. I am saying between Biden and trump that I believe it would be worse under trump and I do not see it within my rights as a group that wouldn't be targeted to cross my arms and say that I won't participate and risk people who would be targeted. I cannot in my own mind be okay with that. It's not my choice. I'm sorry that I implied moral superiority for this mindset. I understand this is my own personal hangup and I got emotional and argumentive. Sorry.
Harm reduction is when you vote for a fascist who arms and funds Nazis in Ukraine, while arming and funding the mass murder of innocent children. Harm reduction is when we decide that genocide is not a red line, this time
Genocide is happening either way, I believe the liberals will do less of a genocide because they at least try to pretend like they aren't doing it. Trump wouldn't care as much. More people would suffer. It's a small insignificant chance in terms of numbers of bodies on a page, but I truly believe less people fucking die this way. Is that not enough?
How many human beings need to live over the other option to make it worth it to you? For me it's 1. And I genuinely believe Biden will kill at least 1 less person at least. I am not willing to sacrifice that person on pride.
Just because voting doesn't matter in the way it's advertised doesn't mean it actually has no effect whatsoever. It does. Just not the one we was told. That means not to rely on voting as the be all end all, but recognizing at times we can shift things ever so slightly away from the worst case scenario.
As for reduction, it doesn't require biden to do anything other than not make things worse than trump would. You answered the question. You believe that harm reduction as in, avoiding a worse outcome of an already bad outcome isn't worth it. If you can't have good, there's no point stopping the worst. I do not understand that stance, besides being blinded to material outcome by anger. I do understand anger. I feel it with you. I just cannot allow that anger to put people on a sacrificial block they don't have to be on.
I pain for the palastinians. I cannot express that enough. But right now, with the methods readily available to us, I believe that trump would ruin more of their lives too. I can't be so angry as to remove myself from the outcome and pretend that it wasn't my fault.
Trump is a less harmful option. Biden is funding Israel's genocide because he rabidly wants to, at least with Trump there's a chance he might bail in the middle of it just because he's bored that day and he wants to cause some drama.
I disagree with that gamble. I'm tired of fighting today. I didn't mean for this to turn into an argument. I'm going to log off and cool it. Think over what everyone has been saying.
Just wanted to put it out there that we are comrades, even after this disagreement over something we both say ultimately does nothing.
Liberals on were saying that the pro Palestine protests the other day "looked to coordinated to be grassroots" and are "Russian influence" because "they have the same goal as Putin" which is apparently making Biden look like an idiot?
Know how I know these libs have never organized? Because apparently they think protests are when a bunch of randos decide independent of each other to go to a place and hold glib signs. They can't fathom that there are different groups that meet up and plan where the action will take place.
Ever wonder if youll be able to vote for a guy you aren't positive will fund a genocide?
Ever get tired of advocating for something so very disrurbing? It must be ennervating, right? You thought Trump would be gone after the last time.
Ever ask yourself why you ask for so little?
Is it the pragmatic choice to make yourself so small?
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Biden is putting Palestinians in the fucking ground, but they’re not your friends, nor people you care about (our only two options will probably both do this, but we must work with these choices God gave us and ignore this). He put migrants in concentration camps, continued the sanctions regime for the starvation of the citizens of enemy nations, and wrought imperialism across the globe. But this is the “same old America” and Biden is only a “straight fascist” when he comes for the precious Americans at home. Well he did that with the crushing of the rail workers strike and the continuation of the same old poverty and racist systems. Is coming for your queer friends the one thing that makes someone a “straight fascist”? Biden could have used federal authority to work towards the suppression of anti-trans laws in backward states, but he didn’t.
I love empty words, but tell me, what does this mean when you passively play the electoral game? What is this “effective change” and “praxis” (“all that good jazz”)?
I was told that a second Trump term would see the U.S. pulling out of NATO (objectively good) and a national abortion ban (the Democrats already allowed Roe v. Wade to be repealed, and the defense among them has been that Biden does not have the power to do anything about this, as, woe, he was born into the wrong branch; given Trump would be the president as well, surely he would not have the power to institute such a ban) along with a bunch of unsubstantiated uncreative Hitler 3.0 stuff like “Trump Youth.”
Biden is putting palastinians in the fucking ground and that is a complaint, but voting or not voting in this election doesn't change that. That's not on the table. US is going to commit genocide no matter the winner and it fucking sucks. But what do you want me to do? You want me as a cis straight white man to tell my queer friends that I'm willing to sacrifice their life and safety to make a point? For what? To what end? What's your preferred outcome here?
At the end of the day, I'm not an accelerationist. I have a preferred outcome here, and no amount of wishing for a 3rd choice will change anything. Not choosing ain't gonna stop the choice from being made. And I'll take the, however small, less worse choice than the other.
Voting as well has no effect on your effect you can do in your community. It doesn't effect the orgs your in or whatever activism your up to. The best case scenario is you own the libs and while they scratch their head wondering for the billionth time why we won't vote for them and change nothing, more people suffer than would have otherwise.
I am not willing to sacrifice people, especially knowing the groups targeted will not be me.
The dems have pulled this "You'd better vote for us because the other guy will literally kill you if they win!" thing since the 60s, they've just shifted around the minority group they target with their threats. Please listen to this 8 minute speech by Malcolm X, it's incredibly relevant here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg3dr-o4_fc
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
Don't you see that's the point? You're accepting the framework of the two party system. God gave us two options and it would be sacrilege to deny him! You're allowing the "harm reduction party" to do harm unchecked, where opposing them in any meaningful way is impossible because it leaves the door open for the other party. You're guaranteeing them unlimited stability so that you can feel good about yourself for "reducing harm" forever. It doesn't matter if you hate the genocide against Palestinians or imperialism if in the end you have the same total political impact as a geriatric suburbanite pig who loves Amerikkka and the Democrats to the core. Again, what is this nebulous "praxis" you referenced?
If your queer friends care more about the potential "harm reduction" done by staying within the lines and allowing the 2.5th Reich to carry on its crimes unchecked than actually promoting independent political organization by driving votes away from the two "options" while there is mass discontent and the potential for a better future either through abstention or voting/campaigning for PSL, the Green Party, etc., then they're not worth it.
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I'm allowing the harm reduction party to do harm unchecked, and you are wanting people to suffer so they'll see the error of their liberal ways. What you are advocating for is turning that gun around and firing it until the point is made. I am not okay with sacrificing people to stand on pride. If even one less person would die voting for Biden over trump, that's my choice in this exact moment in time. I am not willing to sacrifice untolds number of people on the gamble that maybe the libs will get it this time.
You can tell yourself that all you like but we can all see that plainly isn't true
Yeah dude. And not voting is doing a world of difference. Basically won the revolution already.
Your insulting me for saying i cannot stand on my pride and tell others to sacrifice when I know I will not be the one to suffer. I don't have a choice in the genocide. Voting Biden, voting trump, voting none ultimately changes nothing because we both are small cogs in the machine. We are still comrades, even if you would rather insult me over it.
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The only accurate statement you've made.
They aren't the "harm reduction" party though. They are the "A lot of harm" party, and they are trying to scare you by saying that the other party, the "Potentially even more harm" party is worse.
Would you rather be shot in the arm or the leg? Which one? Obviously you'd rather neither one, but you MUST choose one. You must! And you must choose again in 4 years, where it will be your spine or your lung to choose from, but you MUST choose then as well.
I'm sorry, but participating in this system in the hopes that it "buys more time" for the libs to "wake up" is incredibly stupid. That's like participating in bashing someone up in the hopes that the other people bashing them will one day learn their lesson, while you're actively there, participating in the same actions as them. Don't you think that will just encourage them instead of waking them up?
If you want things to change, you start by making it clear that things need to change, instead of grumbling and accepting the status quo. Educating people on demanding more out of the system, (and hopefully much further than that) will do far, far more than just simply going along with the system and accepting the idea that being forced to pick between two actively genocidal parties is in any way acceptable. People vote because they, like yourself, seem to think that there is "no other option." Things will never change if this is how we operate. The way things change is by teaching people that there are alternatives, and they can actually demand things of their government, instead of grovelling and begging, but always falling in line.
Here's that Malcolm X clip again, since you must've missed it the last time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg3dr-o4_fc
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
I watched the video. I watched it again here. The problem for me is that Malcom X is talking about black folk. He is talking about their block and advocating for essentially self sacrifice at the hands of his "worse option" to make a point. I am not black. Nor am I queer. Nor am I a woman. I am not a target. It is not my sacrifice to give. It is not within my right I believe to tell someone who will suffer that it's necessary to make a point when I know for a fact that I will not suffer. I know for a fact that I wouldn't be a target. I cannot make that decision in good conscious because I am not the one who will pay that price.
How can you honestly be this dense? We've got a dozen people here, all telling you the same thing, and you refuse to get your head out of your own ass and listen to them. VOTING WILL NOT SAVE ANYONE. VOTING ONLY PROVIDES LEGITIMACY TO THIS CORRUPT AND BROKEN SYSTEM THAT HAS GOTTEN THIS BAD DUE TO THIS KIND OF COMPLACENCY. YOU ARE NOT A HERO FOR VOTING FOR A GENOCIDAL WAR CRIMINAL, EVEN IF HE IS GOING UP AGAINST ANOTHER GENOCIDAL WAR CRIMINAL. YOUR VOTE WILL CHANGE NOTHING, AND WILL DO NOTHING EXCEPT STROKE YOUR SMUG EGO. Fuck you.
Theyll never get it, thats the point. The third world suffer eternal because liberals dont care if thr wrist bending doesnt work
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And what the fuck has Biden done about any of your concerns? You think he gives a fuck about LGBTQ people?
Oh, here's your problem! You are thinking like a child. This is what a child thinks elections are. You'll never understand my position because you don't understand the problem.
Your words are empty to me because i can tell by your attitude you do not "hear" what i am saying, or even hear the why of anything.
How could you? You are too busy deciding that everything, even genocide, must be viewed through the lens of the coming election.
Good god there's gonna be a lot of masked liberals "talking sense to the left" coming up, huh?
Get better copypasta, because "don't you care bout my queer/brown friends?" is already played out.
Wow, perfect! The liberal view in a nutshell. Things only have relevance to libs through the lens of the next election to them. Insight unlocked.
Genocide is a little bit more than a complaint. Especially given that americans are supposed to stop Trump from doing the exact same thing.
You think anyone's gonna take your unprincipled ass seriously when you call genocide a fuckin "complaint", you don't care about queer people motherfucker, you hide behind their struggles trying to maintain your crumbling sense of normalcy
I want Trump to win precisely because liberal cockroaches like you will be forced to pretend to take genocide seriously, and in that way LESS people will indeed suffer, because there will be more pressure to oppose fascism unlike today when even the libs have gone full Nazi
Imagine taking his unprincipled ass serious when he can't even spell Palestine correct when the fuckin nation's been in the news for six fuckin months
I'd sacrifice every cishet white Amerikan in this country for any oppressed subject-of-empire in the world in a New York minute. Death to the settler empire, death to the DNC. Voting absolutely does affect my community; do you realize that Biden has sent more military surplus through the 1033 program to PDs all over the country than Trump did with the same amount of time? The cops in my city are two steps and another humvee from being a whole-ass new branch of the military, some City Force-type shit, but "voting doesn't affect the orgs in my community", fuckin sure.
I hope to Fuck you're the first one to learn the consequences of your electoralist garbage.
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Hey as a queer person, fuck you. Get my community out of your fucking mouth. Biden has not done one single thing for me or for my community. Do not support genocide in the name of "protecting queer people." Genocide does not protect us. Open slaughter of thousands upon thousands of innocent people does not protect us. Hiding behind the queer community in defense of genocide is cowardly and wrong. "Oh yeah well I have a queer friend" is the new white asshole way to say "well I have a black friend!" I am queer and you don't get to use me as an excuse for genocide.
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getting a lot of mail out of the facts machine today
What has genocide Joe done to stop fascist state legislatures from passing anti-trans legislation? What has he done to prevent them from forcing women to give birth? What has he done to protect the victims?
I don't know how to tell you this, but a conservative catholic octogenarian with a lifelong history of supporting racists, homophobes and oligarchs is not going to be a progressive just because there's a D next to his name.
Those are valid complaints, and all day fuck Joe biden, but at the end of the day I am not an accelerationist. I see no argument from a leftist perspective for not voting for our shitty option unless you think things getting worse will make them better faster. What is the outcome you have in mind? Don't vote to stick it to the libs, trump gets elected and then we all suffer that much more? For what?
Your choice isn't between accelerationism or not, it's how funny your buffoon in chief will be.
Considering the last 4 years of actual events, what makes you think your friends will be any safer under Biden than Trump? He hasn't stopped any of the anti-trans legislation during his presidency, or anti-abortion, or anti-immigrant - who are you trying to protect? Who do you think you are protecting by voting 100% Hitler instead of 100% Hitler?
It's the difference between lackluster do nothing, or active harm. Biden hasn't stopped it but he's not using his platform to push it. That's a small difference but it's a difference that effects actual people. Is one person not enough for you? Either all must be saved or just let other people make the choices? If you can't have who you want you don't get the privilege of not getting something. Your going to get something weather you like it or not. And I know I'm not going to be the target under trump. I don't have the right to say the people who would be targets arent worth it.
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And how many of these would still be happening under trump? You act like if you don't vote that there's a chance neither will happen. One or the other will become a reality. Which would you rather live in for your immediate future? None isn't an option.
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Biden is a fascist, you shouldn't imply he isn't.
You can make a 99% Hitler vs 100% Hitler argument if you want to, but you shouldn't pretend it's fascism vs no fascism. Zionism is fascism and should be labeled as such.
Zionism is fascism, Biden is a fascist, but Biden ain't the one talking about declaring himself a dictator. Sure it's 99 vs 100% Hitler, but there is no other option. And my morals say that when you have a bad choice and a worse choice, you don't stand on pride and choose none just for the choice to be made for you.
Did Trump ever seriously talk about "declaring himself a dictator"? When you are only given the choices between 99 and 100% Hitler you reject the system and actually utilize the mass discontent instead of voting for the "least bad bad guys" regardless, effectively guaranteeing whatever they do is acceptable as long as they do not become the other guys.
https://apnews.com/article/trump-hannity-iowa-town-hall-d9cad413851b60f6c0abd2a564d86338
Yes, here is him saying it.
My personal or our group rejection of the system has no actual material effect except to make things worse. You can't just reject society without having the organized structure in place to actively rebel against it. Just not participating does nothing but make things worse.
Voting doesn't stop you from organizing, unionizing and joining local organizations. It does nothing at all but make things worse. Is your argument accelerationist? Do you want things to get bad before getting better? If not I don't see the point in your stance. I don't want to be mean, I don't mean to be rude. I genuinely do not understand. Do you not care what happens tomorrow?
Freudian slip. It stops you from directing votes away from the two parties and showing that changes have to be made.
And who has to suffer in the meantime while we see if that gamble pays off? I'm just not willing to make that decision. I can't in good conscious knowing the fact that more people would suffer under trump than Biden. That's my simple calculus.
This doesn't mean anything unless your head is still filled with magical liberal thinking. Either he has the power and support to be in power indefinitely or he doesn't. People who can and will do coups don't usually care about how you vote.
There is another option lmao, it involves everything around a bourgeoisie democracy
And my moral tells me that if I don't live in a small pool of like 6 states, there's absolutely no point in thinking about, let alone voting for, who gets to be president. Not all of us live in Georgia or Michigan. And unless you live in one of those 6 states, congrats, you've wasted your time and energy on something you have absolutely no control over.
There is another option. The French knew that when their Kings and Queens told them to eat cake.
The fact you don't even consider that is sus. Gaslightng even.
Death to Amerika, you settler fuck
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I think you misunderstood me. I am saying do not just go vote and then chill. Voting does not stop you from organizing, volunteering and getting involved in your local community and leftist orgs. I'm saying voting is not the be all end all. It's not the secret weapon. But it is a small, basically functionless tool for harm reduction.
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#resist
So you should vote for trump then. If you believe him to be the less harmful of the two options. This is me baiting you to tell me you think trump is a less harmful option. Or did you not understand what harm reduction means? Or was is just not enough people whomst harm would be reduced for you to think it's worth it? Or is the people's whos harm would be reduced not be worthy of it?
I cannot in good conscious as a cis straight man tell my non binary partner that they need to be the sacrifice to the political statement of "sticking it to the libs"
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I am not saying shit didn't get worse under Biden. I am saying between Biden and trump that I believe it would be worse under trump and I do not see it within my rights as a group that wouldn't be targeted to cross my arms and say that I won't participate and risk people who would be targeted. I cannot in my own mind be okay with that. It's not my choice. I'm sorry that I implied moral superiority for this mindset. I understand this is my own personal hangup and I got emotional and argumentive. Sorry.
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Harm reduction is when you vote for a fascist who arms and funds Nazis in Ukraine, while arming and funding the mass murder of innocent children. Harm reduction is when we decide that genocide is not a red line, this time
Genocide is happening either way, I believe the liberals will do less of a genocide because they at least try to pretend like they aren't doing it. Trump wouldn't care as much. More people would suffer. It's a small insignificant chance in terms of numbers of bodies on a page, but I truly believe less people fucking die this way. Is that not enough?
How many human beings need to live over the other option to make it worth it to you? For me it's 1. And I genuinely believe Biden will kill at least 1 less person at least. I am not willing to sacrifice that person on pride.
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Just because voting doesn't matter in the way it's advertised doesn't mean it actually has no effect whatsoever. It does. Just not the one we was told. That means not to rely on voting as the be all end all, but recognizing at times we can shift things ever so slightly away from the worst case scenario.
As for reduction, it doesn't require biden to do anything other than not make things worse than trump would. You answered the question. You believe that harm reduction as in, avoiding a worse outcome of an already bad outcome isn't worth it. If you can't have good, there's no point stopping the worst. I do not understand that stance, besides being blinded to material outcome by anger. I do understand anger. I feel it with you. I just cannot allow that anger to put people on a sacrificial block they don't have to be on.
I pain for the palastinians. I cannot express that enough. But right now, with the methods readily available to us, I believe that trump would ruin more of their lives too. I can't be so angry as to remove myself from the outcome and pretend that it wasn't my fault.
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Trump is a less harmful option. Biden is funding Israel's genocide because he rabidly wants to, at least with Trump there's a chance he might bail in the middle of it just because he's bored that day and he wants to cause some drama.
I disagree with that gamble. I'm tired of fighting today. I didn't mean for this to turn into an argument. I'm going to log off and cool it. Think over what everyone has been saying.
Just wanted to put it out there that we are comrades, even after this disagreement over something we both say ultimately does nothing.
Why do you think people aren't organizing
Because they're a liberal who has never considered political action outside of voting for the anointed dem every 4 years.
Liberals on
were saying that the pro Palestine protests the other day "looked to coordinated to be grassroots" and are "Russian influence" because "they have the same goal as Putin" which is apparently making Biden look like an idiot?
Know how I know these libs have never organized? Because apparently they think protests are when a bunch of randos decide independent of each other to go to a place and hold glib signs. They can't fathom that there are different groups that meet up and plan where the action will take place.
They didn't see the march advertised on Twitter with a link to buy your own merchandise before hand so they assume it isn't a real protest.
That's true. We all know liberals won protesting with the pussy hat parade.