But when the choice is a straight fascist who's talking like he's going to put my queer friends in the fucking ground vs same old America, I'll take same old America a little bit longer so the people I care about don't fucking die in 2 years.
Biden is putting Palestinians in the fucking ground, but they’re not your friends, nor people you care about (our only two options will probably both do this, but we must work with these choices God gave us and ignore this). He put migrants in concentration camps, continued the sanctions regime for the starvation of the citizens of enemy nations, and wrought imperialism across the globe. But this is the “same old America” and Biden is only a “straight fascist” when he comes for the precious Americans at home. Well he did that with the crushing of the rail workers strike and the continuation of the same old poverty and racist systems. Is coming for your queer friends the one thing that makes someone a “straight fascist”? Biden could have used federal authority to work towards the suppression of anti-trans laws in backward states, but he didn’t.
Meanwhile organize, effect change, praxis. All that good jazz.
I love empty words, but tell me, what does this mean when you passively play the electoral game? What is this “effective change” and “praxis” (“all that good jazz”)?
Sucks that it's our choice here, but I don't think y'all are considering what a trump round 2 would look like. And we are playing with fire.
I was told that a second Trump term would see the U.S. pulling out of NATO (objectively good) and a national abortion ban (the Democrats already allowed Roe v. Wade to be repealed, and the defense among them has been that Biden does not have the power to do anything about this, as, woe, he was born into the wrong branch; given Trump would be the president as well, surely he would not have the power to institute such a ban) along with a bunch of unsubstantiated uncreative Hitler 3.0 stuff like “Trump Youth.”
Biden is putting palastinians in the fucking ground and that is a complaint, but voting or not voting in this election doesn't change that. That's not on the table. US is going to commit genocide no matter the winner and it fucking sucks. But what do you want me to do? You want me as a cis straight white man to tell my queer friends that I'm willing to sacrifice their life and safety to make a point? For what? To what end? What's your preferred outcome here?
At the end of the day, I'm not an accelerationist. I have a preferred outcome here, and no amount of wishing for a 3rd choice will change anything. Not choosing ain't gonna stop the choice from being made. And I'll take the, however small, less worse choice than the other.
Voting as well has no effect on your effect you can do in your community. It doesn't effect the orgs your in or whatever activism your up to. The best case scenario is you own the libs and while they scratch their head wondering for the billionth time why we won't vote for them and change nothing, more people suffer than would have otherwise.
I am not willing to sacrifice people, especially knowing the groups targeted will not be me.
The dems have pulled this "You'd better vote for us because the other guy will literally kill you if they win!" thing since the 60s, they've just shifted around the minority group they target with their threats. Please listen to this 8 minute speech by Malcolm X, it's incredibly relevant here.
Biden is putting palastinians in the fucking ground and that is a complaint, but voting or not voting in this election doesn't change that.
Don't you see that's the point? You're accepting the framework of the two party system. God gave us two options and it would be sacrilege to deny him! You're allowing the "harm reduction party" to do harm unchecked, where opposing them in any meaningful way is impossible because it leaves the door open for the other party. You're guaranteeing them unlimited stability so that you can feel good about yourself for "reducing harm" forever. It doesn't matter if you hate the genocide against Palestinians or imperialism if in the end you have the same total political impact as a geriatric suburbanite pig who loves Amerikkka and the Democrats to the core. Again, what is this nebulous "praxis" you referenced?
If your queer friends care more about the potential "harm reduction" done by staying within the lines and allowing the 2.5th Reich to carry on its crimes unchecked than actually promoting independent political organization by driving votes away from the two "options" while there is mass discontent and the potential for a better future either through abstention or voting/campaigning for PSL, the Green Party, etc., then they're not worth it.
I'm allowing the harm reduction party to do harm unchecked, and you are wanting people to suffer so they'll see the error of their liberal ways. What you are advocating for is turning that gun around and firing it until the point is made. I am not okay with sacrificing people to stand on pride. If even one less person would die voting for Biden over trump, that's my choice in this exact moment in time. I am not willing to sacrifice untolds number of people on the gamble that maybe the libs will get it this time.
Yeah dude. And not voting is doing a world of difference. Basically won the revolution already.
Your insulting me for saying i cannot stand on my pride and tell others to sacrifice when I know I will not be the one to suffer. I don't have a choice in the genocide. Voting Biden, voting trump, voting none ultimately changes nothing because we both are small cogs in the machine. We are still comrades, even if you would rather insult me over it.
I get your anger. I do not want to argue about it anymore. I got too emotional about this and need to log off and cool it. But I understand your anger and I share it. Im sorry if I implied some kinda moral superiority (bit more than imply) for my reasoning for voting. Ultimately voting does nothing and we both know it. I just cannot get past the reasoning I stated to not vote, but it is my own problem and I shouldn't of put that on anyone else.
We are still comrades, thank you for trying to convince me, I appreciate your view.
Apologies for not seeing the pronouns. I'm not used to checking them yet. Not used to being somewhere they are so easily presented. Definitely something to work on.
My problem at this point is that I see this as a small issue and you are presenting it as one worthy of actual fascisism. I find your position extremely accusational and unreasonable.
You say I support fascism. I give my personal stance on why I feel I cannot abstain from voting due to the reasons I laid out and you insult me like Im wearing an SS uniform. I cannot in any fucking way see that as anything other but unreasonable anger with no actual belief behind it because that's fucking insane.
Do you really believe that? Are you genuinely really actually telling me that it's so important that I don't vote, that if you knew me and we were friends you would be taking a baseball bat to me over it? You would boot me from your org and kick my ass on the way out?
If so, I don't fucking understand. Spent all this time talking about how voting is pointless , both candidates are the same, voting changes nothing and turn around and say but if you put a name down in the hopes maybe less people would get hurt that you are a card carrying Nazi scumbag.
Your right, I don't understand you. I don't understand why you continue threatening and talking about physical violence you wish you could enact on me. I do not consider it a way to encourage me to see your point. I ain't a fucking Nazi. I ain't a fucking fascist. You fucking know I ain't and trying to gaslight me into thinking I am some kinda monster is just fucking mean. It's manipulative. It's disrespectful. It's angry bad vibe bullshit for what. You convince me not to do the thing that doesn't matter? Cool. Glad I lost sleep over this.
Maybe instead of acting aggressively in the hopes my fear of not fitting in, you talk to me like a god damn human being. Now I'm all emotional, insomniac, and just generally pissed off and it's gonna continue. Mental state ruined. Even saying all this is just more fuel to your fire.
Whatever. If that's your bar, that's your bar. If you don't want to be nice, I am not dependent on you being so. After all that I'm still going to call you comrade, because I ain't gonna let some petty bullshit discussion make me forget my solidarity.
Holy shit, it's worse than I thought. I didn't think they would give a half-hearted corporate apology followed by several paragraphs of how sad 😩 you made them you meanie! How dare you upset them, the Main Character of the internet?
You'd think they'd consider why you keep saying that they're saying things that a fascist would say, and why you'd aggressively kick them out of any org you are a part of, but nope. You're just being mean.
They just don't seem to get that we aren't just being "mean people on the internet" but are being harsh and rude because we do not think their behaviour is in any way acceptable. This person wants to be friends, but doesn't seem to understand that if your friends tell you to stop being such a shitty person before you get bashed or killed, you should take that as a wake-up call and stop being so shitty.
Yeah, shitlibs gonna shitlib I guess. I was hoping there'd be something a little more interesting here.
I don't think they understand that actual genuine anger at their words is pretty rare, and out of frustration for wanting them to actually improve, usually we just dunk on people who say dumb shit (like that guy with the reddit avatar). So fucking narcissistic, thinking that we need to "play nice" and stop being mean just because they said so. Kind of wish I was playing lib bingo tonight, would've probably gotten one.
Their final signoff was a lib classic though. "You could've changed my mind if you had just coddled me and let me keep my toxic ideas intact, instead I'm going to refuse to self reflect because of how mean you were to me!"
Yeah, being harsh like this sucks for them, it's not nice to try and be friendly and have people get mad at the things you say, it hurts, but it isn't done out of genuine hatred, just anger at what they are saying, and hope that they improve in the future. I do think this whole conversation will spark a big change in their behaviour going forward, hopefully a positive one, or at least helps them on the way to one. They seemed more close to proper self-crit than most libs I've seen, so I hope they reflect on this. Probably good that it's stopping now, if I had kept going, it wouldn't be out of a desire to see them improve, but it would just be bullying them. I should probably self-crit a bit myself and work on improving my self control.
I meant more that it would no longer be bullying them to change their ways, but just mocking them to be a smug douchebag, being cruel for cruelty's sake. That's never a good place to be in.
Maybe there's a little daylight between "bullying" by being firm and telling people they should be killed - and then acting incredulous that they thought you meant it.
Spent all this time talking about how voting is pointless , both candidates are the same, voting changes nothing
You stated above that you would still vote blue for the sake of your LGBTQ+ friends.
Does voting affect the well being of these peoples or does it change nothing? Make up your mind. It's either 1 or the other, you can't have it both ways.
They aren't the "harm reduction" party though. They are the "A lot of harm" party, and they are trying to scare you by saying that the other party, the "Potentially even more harm" party is worse.
Would you rather be shot in the arm or the leg? Which one? Obviously you'd rather neither one, but you MUST choose one. You must! And you must choose again in 4 years, where it will be your spine or your lung to choose from, but you MUST choose then as well.
I'm sorry, but participating in this system in the hopes that it "buys more time" for the libs to "wake up" is incredibly stupid. That's like participating in bashing someone up in the hopes that the other people bashing them will one day learn their lesson, while you're actively there, participating in the same actions as them. Don't you think that will just encourage them instead of waking them up?
If you want things to change, you start by making it clear that things need to change, instead of grumbling and accepting the status quo. Educating people on demanding more out of the system, (and hopefully much further than that) will do far, far more than just simply going along with the system and accepting the idea that being forced to pick between two actively genocidal parties is in any way acceptable. People vote because they, like yourself, seem to think that there is "no other option." Things will never change if this is how we operate. The way things change is by teaching people that there are alternatives, and they can actually demand things of their government, instead of grovelling and begging, but always falling in line.
Here's that Malcolm X clip again, since you must've missed it the last time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg3dr-o4_fc
I watched the video. I watched it again here. The problem for me is that Malcom X is talking about black folk. He is talking about their block and advocating for essentially self sacrifice at the hands of his "worse option" to make a point. I am not black. Nor am I queer. Nor am I a woman. I am not a target. It is not my sacrifice to give. It is not within my right I believe to tell someone who will suffer that it's necessary to make a point when I know for a fact that I will not suffer. I know for a fact that I wouldn't be a target. I cannot make that decision in good conscious because I am not the one who will pay that price.
How can you honestly be this dense? We've got a dozen people here, all telling you the same thing, and you refuse to get your head out of your own ass and listen to them. VOTING WILL NOT SAVE ANYONE. VOTING ONLY PROVIDES LEGITIMACY TO THIS CORRUPT AND BROKEN SYSTEM THAT HAS GOTTEN THIS BAD DUE TO THIS KIND OF COMPLACENCY. YOU ARE NOT A HERO FOR VOTING FOR A GENOCIDAL WAR CRIMINAL, EVEN IF HE IS GOING UP AGAINST ANOTHER GENOCIDAL WAR CRIMINAL. YOUR VOTE WILL CHANGE NOTHING, AND WILL DO NOTHING EXCEPT STROKE YOUR SMUG EGO. Fuck you.
Literally since the founding of the country we’ve never had 50% or more turnout. People who abstain from voting have been the majority in this country this whole time. If not voting fixed a broken system why isn’t it fixed if the majority already don’t vote?
Do you ever think about the reasons why voter turnout is so low here? Consider, by comparison, Cuba, which has over 90% voter turnout. What is different there to here? Why do so many more people (percentage-wise) vote in Cuba than in the US?
Instead of spending your time in here getting insulted (which is what is going to happen if you keep commenting in this thread), you might instead go research voting in Cuba. Try to answer for yourself why their voter turnout is so high. Then ask yourself if we here in the US can learn something from the way Cuba does politics.
Or you can stay here and get dunked on. You do you.
Nice of you to acknowledge that I’m mostly being insulted and dunked on, but if that was going to stop me from commenting why would I even use Lemmy, or any social media?
Voting in Cuba is pointless for national elections. It’s a one-party state so each candidate runs unopposed in their district. One-party states are bad. There is nothing the U.S. can learn from voting in Cuba, it is one of the least democratic countries in Latin America.
Voter turnout has been 88% or better in Australia since 1925. Why didn’t you list them as an example? Voter turnout is good there because voters are fined a few hundred dollars for not voting. They have a mandatory voting law. That could increase voter turnout in the United States, but if it didn’t come with rules that employers must give their employees time to vote, and states must have fair standards for registering to vote, then it would just be fining poor people for being poor.
Other things the United States could do to increase voter turnout: make Election Day on the weekend instead of a Tuesday, which was selected so farmers traveling by horse and buggy could get to the polls. We don’t have that many farmers anymore, much less ones that travel by horse and buggy. That’s really the only rule at the federal level on how states run elections, other rules to increase voter turnout would be implemented by individual states. Early voting, mail-in voting, the ability to register to vote when you’re interacting with a state office anyway, like when you get a driver’s license, or pay your taxes. Letting people vote after they’ve served their prison sentence. Letting people vote while serving their prison sentence. &c.
Voting in Cuba is pointless for national elections. It’s a one-party state so each candidate runs unopposed in their district. One-party states are bad. There is nothing the U.S. can learn from voting in Cuba, it is one of the least democratic countries in Latin America.
Ok, thanks for telling me who you are! I can now comfortably join the group of people telling you to fuck off back to reddit.
Man, you can't even name the elephant in the room filling the room with elephant shit: the electoral college makes voting for president outside of like 6 states entirely pointless, which would obviously have an effect on voter turnout. People tend to not want to waste their time voting in a sham election where the results are already decided. You've wasted your time in Hexbear posting a bunch of garbage for what? So people living in New York, Alabama, California, Arkansas, Massachusetts, and Texas can be convinced to check Biden's name as if we don't already know who will win those states.
"Hexbear has had a track record of antisocial users who will do anything to get offended at anyone, for any reason." --Hexbear front page
OK, that explains a lot.
I left out abolishing the Electoral College because that would require a Constitutional amendment, which is much more difficult to do than get a bill through Congress, or a state bill through state congress, which is all those other solutions would require. Amending the Constitution is also a possible solution for any political problem in the United States, I thought it went without saying.
Fuck the Constitution, it was written by cracker slaveowners seeking to enrich themselves and create a cracker ethnostate.
I think the US needs to be dismantled and destroyed entirely. No names, monuments, or anything reminiscent of the US needs to be completely destroyed and thrown in the dustbin of history and it's physical lands returned to its original owners, because it's what it deserves, having it's entire history bathed in the blood of colonized people.
Voting in Cuba is pointless for national elections. It’s a one-party state so each candidate runs unopposed in their district. One-party states are bad. There is nothing the U.S. can learn from voting in Cuba, it is one of the least democratic countries in Latin America.
How can you just sit there and type "Cuba has elections where only one person is allowed to run for each office"? It's such a stupid thing to say, as though any country would willingly make an exhibition of its own falseness like that. You would do well to actually research Cuba instead of relying on information you got through cultural osmosis from tar-mongers in Miami. In Cuba, you run as a de-facto independent against everyone else, and indeed that includes challenging incumbents. I hope you weren't the same person pretending to be a communist elsewhere in the thread while spreading the most moronic misinformation about a country you've clearly never researched. Like, you know that the US, the entity that you've admitted was fascist as shit just earlier, has been slandering Cuba for close to a century now, right?
And your a hero for not voting? Neither of us are. We ultimately will not change anything and this argument will do nothing but effect me and you. I have my reasons, I have explained them. I am sorry if I said explicitly and implied that it was a more moral choice to vote than to not. I let myself get emotional and said things I do not really believe. I cannot in my own mind be okay with not voting for the reasons I stated. This is not a judgement. It was, now it is not.
At the end of the day we are comrades. We have the same goal. I'm sorry we both got angry over something so pointless.
You are not a comrade. You are the Dixiecrat Malcolm X was talking about. I see the knife in your hands, you won't stabbing my back.
Don't pull this "we both said some mean things, so let's both say we're sorry and make up" bullshit. I said some mean things, you were advocating for voting for a genocidal war criminal on the grounds that another genocidal war criminal might win if they don't.
Would you have voted for Himmler over Hitler? Picked the "harm reduction" nazi? Would you have been insisting that "sure the system is broken, but we must vote, if voting for the harm reduction nazi would save even one life, then it is a moral duty to participate in their sham elections and give them the legitimacy they need to stay in power!"
Look, I'm done arguing about it. I made my point, you made yours, we both agree it's pointless. Neither of us came in with the possibility of being convinced, and that isn't going to change with more arguing.
I will in fact pull the "we both said mean things, say sorry and make up"
You don't have to say anything. You can keep being angry, I have already gotten you there and I apologize for that. Doing this now I'm sure will just make you even more mad. But please understand that I get your anger. I share it. We are closer than we are apart. We share the same goal.
I already said that I didn't come into this conversation with intent to be convinced. Apologized for that, and tries to disengage on good terms. Call that a fucking high horse all you want, I call it recognizing that I am defensive and needing to settle that mindset back to an open state before being able to do self crit.
That shit takes time and a proper state of mind. Of which I am not in right now. And you instead choose to tell me to die and call me a fascist that you'd beat.
I am being as open about that as possible, your acting as if for every second I don't declare I won't vote for Biden another genocide starts up.
You kept pushing it. I'm not even arguing the idea anymore. I am just arguing about why will you not let me kindly end the discussion on good terms even after I acknowledged that I couldn't, at this moment, dissect my entire stance on voting because I had become emotional. Why did you need to keep pushing it towards hate?
Because I came off as a smug piece of shit? Because I wanted to feel some solidarity with a fellow commie after a disagreement? I'm trying to learn, I have been on a growing journey my whole life. I was a full ass Nazi in a racist ass shit fucking town as a kid and I have done so much to grow past that. All I fucking wanted was to end the conversation so I could think about everything said in a less defensive mindset and feel some good vibes from a peer.
You ruined that for me. You made me feel like shit, I'm even more defensive, and now got to work through all these bullshit feelings of being a "traitor" in some random fuckers eyes before I can begin even considering what you and others said.
Im no mod but that false version of politeness they and other lib bastids all learn by watching Rachel maddow et al gets my back up so hard.
And watching people trying to honestly explain the way the world works while they acted both like the adult in the room and a witless babe at the same time was getting me extra riled up.
They're a liar, i know it in my bones. I think you took it too easy on them
You don't share our anger though! We are angry about a genocide that you want to give passive support towards! Ok? You don't "get it" at all, and you need to get off your smug high horse and admit that to yourself, that you do not understand why we are mad at you. Fuck off with this faux "I understand really!" bullshit, you're not fooling anyone except yourself.
You're not a comrade by any definition, you're a fascist sympathizing genocide supporting scumbag who hides behind the struggles of marginalized people to advance an incoherent politics centered around YOUR sense of personnel comfort
It's quite obvious real world suffering has absolutely no valence on your beliefs except as rhetorical tools to bludgeon people who upset your comfort-centered sensibilities
The best case scenario is you own the libs and while they scratch their heads...
Oh, here's your problem! You are thinking like a child. This is what a child thinks elections are. You'll never understand my position because you don't understand the problem.
Your words are empty to me because i can tell by your attitude you do not "hear" what i am saying, or even hear the why of anything.
How could you? You are too busy deciding that everything, even genocide, must be viewed through the lens of the coming election.
Good god there's gonna be a lot of masked liberals "talking sense to the left" coming up, huh?
Get better copypasta, because "don't you care bout my queer/brown friends?" is already played out.
Biden is putting palastinians in the fucking ground and that is a complaint
You think anyone's gonna take your unprincipled ass seriously when you call genocide a fuckin "complaint", you don't care about queer people motherfucker, you hide behind their struggles trying to maintain your crumbling sense of normalcy
I want Trump to win precisely because liberal cockroaches like you will be forced to pretend to take genocide seriously, and in that way LESS people will indeed suffer, because there will be more pressure to oppose fascism unlike today when even the libs have gone full Nazi
I'd sacrifice every cishet white Amerikan in this country for any oppressed subject-of-empire in the world in a New York minute. Death to the settler empire, death to the DNC. Voting absolutely does affect my community; do you realize that Biden has sent more military surplus through the 1033 program to PDs all over the country than Trump did with the same amount of time? The cops in my city are two steps and another humvee from being a whole-ass new branch of the military, some City Force-type shit, but "voting doesn't affect the orgs in my community", fuckin sure.
I hope to Fuck you're the first one to learn the consequences of your electoralist garbage.
Hey as a queer person, fuck you. Get my community out of your fucking mouth. Biden has not done one single thing for me or for my community. Do not support genocide in the name of "protecting queer people." Genocide does not protect us. Open slaughter of thousands upon thousands of innocent people does not protect us. Hiding behind the queer community in defense of genocide is cowardly and wrong. "Oh yeah well I have a queer friend" is the new white asshole way to say "well I have a black friend!" I am queer and you don't get to use me as an excuse for genocide.
What has genocide Joe done to stop fascist state legislatures from passing anti-trans legislation? What has he done to prevent them from forcing women to give birth? What has he done to protect the victims?
I don't know how to tell you this, but a conservative catholic octogenarian with a lifelong history of supporting racists, homophobes and oligarchs is not going to be a progressive just because there's a D next to his name.
Those are valid complaints, and all day fuck Joe biden, but at the end of the day I am not an accelerationist. I see no argument from a leftist perspective for not voting for our shitty option unless you think things getting worse will make them better faster. What is the outcome you have in mind? Don't vote to stick it to the libs, trump gets elected and then we all suffer that much more? For what?
Your choice isn't between accelerationism or not, it's how funny your buffoon in chief will be.
Considering the last 4 years of actual events, what makes you think your friends will be any safer under Biden than Trump? He hasn't stopped any of the anti-trans legislation during his presidency, or anti-abortion, or anti-immigrant - who are you trying to protect? Who do you think you are protecting by voting 100% Hitler instead of 100% Hitler?
It's the difference between lackluster do nothing, or active harm. Biden hasn't stopped it but he's not using his platform to push it. That's a small difference but it's a difference that effects actual people. Is one person not enough for you? Either all must be saved or just let other people make the choices? If you can't have who you want you don't get the privilege of not getting something. Your going to get something weather you like it or not. And I know I'm not going to be the target under trump. I don't have the right to say the people who would be targets arent worth it.
And how many of these would still be happening under trump? You act like if you don't vote that there's a chance neither will happen. One or the other will become a reality. Which would you rather live in for your immediate future? None isn't an option.
I get what your saying. I'm saying that when they both are the same, the degrees by which they commit these atrocities is the only thing up for consideration. In that scenario my morals dictate that I must advocate for the side I thing will ultimately result in less tragedy, even if I believe that to be slight. A single life makes it worth it.
We don't have to agree friend. I know this is a touchy subject for us, especially now and I'm sorry for implying that I was in any way morally superior for my choice over yours and I hope you feel the same. Ultimately the only thing this conversation effects is me and you right now. My vote and your lack of one will change nothing. Neither of us can stop it. Let us not be angry.
Buddy, I'm just tired of arguing over something we both agree doesn't even fucking matter. I apologize for grandstanding, I let myself get emotional about justifications that only really apply to me and my state of mind.
I am trying to take the high road in the sense I want to be less angry about it. I want to be less angry and less emotional about something we both agree doesn't matter.
Like, saying I support all that shit for what? You know I fucking dont. I wouldn't be here if I did. Your just angry and being insulting and I just don't want to fight about it anymore. Weather you like it or not, we are still comrades and trying to act like the issue of voting, which we both know doesn't do anything ultimately anyways changes that is why I want to stop arguing.
We are too angry, too emotional, about fucking nothing. And I'm sorry I pushed it this far. I knew how it'd be seen and I wanted to argue my case anyways. I didn't come into it with the ability to be convinced and neither did you. It was pointless to start and has done nothing but make my night one of insomnia. So I'm sorry. Hate me if you want. I'm just trying to genuinely tell you I'm sorry for letting it get here.
I think I realise why this guy is making me so mad. I would've been this "well meaning" left-lib white-splaining why "lesser evilism" is great actually about a decade ago. I see my own past smug ignorance in this guy. Someone getting angry at me and calling me out on my bullshit helped me along the path to understanding how ignorant and smug I was being, while thinking I was "helping" disenfranchised people, when the only thing I was really helping was my own ego.
I hope they take this conversation to heart and actually listen to what we've been saying to them, and seek to understand our opposition to them instead of trying to pull this "reaching across aisle, we can agree to disagree" lib shit. I do think they "mean well" they're just completely unaware of how harmful and impotent their attitudes actually are.
That's the thing, they think it is genuine. They think they are "seeing the person on the other side of the screen" and we are failing to do the same. Any time I ever see anyone trying to remind the person they're talking to to "remember the human" it's always someone insisting on "humanity for me, not for thee."
They just flatly aren't understanding that we've seen plenty of people in their position before, and seen those people get better and improve, and examine their own beliefs critically.
I've seen this exact thing in plenty of local organising (and in myself). The guy who encourages us to vote for the "least bad" candidate in bourgeoisie election and discourages others from reading or actively doing anything they find uncomfortable because it "won't help." Finding some excuse as to why their way of doing this is the only correct one, and when they receive pushback, it is always just "people talking past each other" even when it's literally everyone else in the room telling them that they understand their position, but their position is not an acceptable one to have.
It's always a comfortable middle class white guy doing it as well. Someone so used to eating up all the oxygen in the room that they just flat out aren't even aware that they are doing it.
And yeah, their constant insistence that we are "friends" is just code for "This conversation is challenging my pre-concieved notions and making me feel uncomfortable, so stop doing that." but again, they don't seem to realise that we've seen this before, and know how bullshit they're being.
Yeah, I just saw that, funny how the left libs always talk about respecting people, but abandon that respect the instant they are no longer treated as The Most Important Person In The Room. I think this was just a mistake on their part, but we'll see. I have a feeling that their apology (if they even acknowledge that they misgendered you) will be incredibly backhanded and blaming you for their actions.
It was even worse than I thought! You should read it, it's hilarious. They're lucky it's late and I need to head to bed soon, or else I'd probably spend the next couple of hours dunking on this shitlib who thinks they're a communist because they're "open minded" or some shit.
What is up with you calling me a fascist genocider? Is that really the line for you? If you could kill me right now would you? Am I deserving of that to you? Another guy in the thread thinks so. Tell me you want a fellow communist dead because of a disagreement on voting.
Y'all forget that this text box is a whole ass human being on the other end trying to genuinely connect and talk with you. I didn't come into this conversation to be convinced and that was poor conditions for this conversation, and your going to throw around your big enemy words to what, guilt me? Make me feel bad? Just wanna hurt me? What do you want from me?
Do not belittle me so. likewise do not talk down to me as if this is some matter of "heated emotions" or something. You are not the first fashy "we see you, we hear you" lib I've met. If you truly respected me as a comrade as you claim, then you would not consign my words to being uttered unknowingly in anger.
Completely unrelated but thank you for putting into words what pisses me off so much about my dumbass lib-Trot housemate
You can make a 99% Hitler vs 100% Hitler argument if you want to, but you shouldn't pretend it's fascism vs no fascism. Zionism is fascism and should be labeled as such.
Zionism is fascism, Biden is a fascist, but Biden ain't the one talking about declaring himself a dictator. Sure it's 99 vs 100% Hitler, but there is no other option. And my morals say that when you have a bad choice and a worse choice, you don't stand on pride and choose none just for the choice to be made for you.
but Biden ain't the one talking about declaring himself a dictator. Sure it's 99 vs 100% Hitler, but there is no other option.
Did Trump ever seriously talk about "declaring himself a dictator"? When you are only given the choices between 99 and 100% Hitler you reject the system and actually utilize the mass discontent instead of voting for the "least bad bad guys" regardless, effectively guaranteeing whatever they do is acceptable as long as they do not become the other guys.
My personal or our group rejection of the system has no actual material effect except to make things worse. You can't just reject society without having the organized structure in place to actively rebel against it. Just not participating does nothing but make things worse.
Voting doesn't stop you from organizing, unionizing and joining local organizations. It does nothing at all but make things worse. Is your argument accelerationist? Do you want things to get bad before getting better? If not I don't see the point in your stance. I don't want to be mean, I don't mean to be rude. I genuinely do not understand. Do you not care what happens tomorrow?
And who has to suffer in the meantime while we see if that gamble pays off? I'm just not willing to make that decision. I can't in good conscious knowing the fact that more people would suffer under trump than Biden. That's my simple calculus.
Biden ain't the one talking about declaring himself a dictator.
This doesn't mean anything unless your head is still filled with magical liberal thinking. Either he has the power and support to be in power indefinitely or he doesn't. People who can and will do coups don't usually care about how you vote.
And my morals say that when you have a bad choice and a worse choice, you don't stand on pride and choose none just for the choice to be made for you.
And my moral tells me that if I don't live in a small pool of like 6 states, there's absolutely no point in thinking about, let alone voting for, who gets to be president. Not all of us live in Georgia or Michigan. And unless you live in one of those 6 states, congrats, you've wasted your time and energy on something you have absolutely no control over.
I think you misunderstood me. I am saying do not just go vote and then chill. Voting does not stop you from organizing, volunteering and getting involved in your local community and leftist orgs. I'm saying voting is not the be all end all. It's not the secret weapon. But it is a small, basically functionless tool for harm reduction.
So you should vote for trump then. If you believe him to be the less harmful of the two options. This is me baiting you to tell me you think trump is a less harmful option. Or did you not understand what harm reduction means? Or was is just not enough people whomst harm would be reduced for you to think it's worth it? Or is the people's whos harm would be reduced not be worthy of it?
I cannot in good conscious as a cis straight man tell my non binary partner that they need to be the sacrifice to the political statement of "sticking it to the libs"
I am not saying shit didn't get worse under Biden. I am saying between Biden and trump that I believe it would be worse under trump and I do not see it within my rights as a group that wouldn't be targeted to cross my arms and say that I won't participate and risk people who would be targeted. I cannot in my own mind be okay with that. It's not my choice. I'm sorry that I implied moral superiority for this mindset. I understand this is my own personal hangup and I got emotional and argumentive. Sorry.
Harm reduction is when you vote for a fascist who arms and funds Nazis in Ukraine, while arming and funding the mass murder of innocent children. Harm reduction is when we decide that genocide is not a red line, this time
Genocide is happening either way, I believe the liberals will do less of a genocide because they at least try to pretend like they aren't doing it. Trump wouldn't care as much. More people would suffer. It's a small insignificant chance in terms of numbers of bodies on a page, but I truly believe less people fucking die this way. Is that not enough?
How many human beings need to live over the other option to make it worth it to you? For me it's 1. And I genuinely believe Biden will kill at least 1 less person at least. I am not willing to sacrifice that person on pride.
Just because voting doesn't matter in the way it's advertised doesn't mean it actually has no effect whatsoever. It does. Just not the one we was told. That means not to rely on voting as the be all end all, but recognizing at times we can shift things ever so slightly away from the worst case scenario.
As for reduction, it doesn't require biden to do anything other than not make things worse than trump would. You answered the question. You believe that harm reduction as in, avoiding a worse outcome of an already bad outcome isn't worth it. If you can't have good, there's no point stopping the worst. I do not understand that stance, besides being blinded to material outcome by anger. I do understand anger. I feel it with you. I just cannot allow that anger to put people on a sacrificial block they don't have to be on.
I pain for the palastinians. I cannot express that enough. But right now, with the methods readily available to us, I believe that trump would ruin more of their lives too. I can't be so angry as to remove myself from the outcome and pretend that it wasn't my fault.
There is no point talking anymore. You are angry and resorted to insulting. I understand your anger. I share it with you. I genuinely do. Above all else, understand that.
In the end, neither your nor my actions will do anything at all. Me convincing your or you convincing me has no effect on anything but each other. Understand, please, on my own morals of wanting the least amount of people to suffer at any given time, i just believe less would suffer under Biden. That is enough for me to be unable to not vote.
I'm sorry this has driven us to this angry place. But as a comrade, which we both are, I love you. We are on the same side. Have a good rest of your day friend.
Inb4 their "So much for the tolerant left, now that you've scratched me, I have no choice but to abandon leftism entirely and become pro-fascist!" response.
Oh yeah, I just meant their next response will be the typical "left lib" thing of "waah! You were mean to me on the internet! I was going to hold my nose and vote for a genocidal fascist and feel really bad about it, but now I'm going to do it with pride and support his every action because you were mean to me!" thing they always do in this situation after they try their condescending "let's just be friends" thing they do.
I was extremely uncivil to them in my last reply, so they're likely to high road for a bit because I got mad about them insisting that voting for genocide is ok if it means only 999,999 people killed instead of 1,000,000.
Because genocide is one of those things we should just calmly talk about the pros and cons of, instead of opposing entirely.
I've sometimes wondered what a lot of self proclaimed "leftists" would've done under Nazi Germany, and now I know. They would've insisted on voting for the "harm reduction" Nazi.
Trump is a less harmful option. Biden is funding Israel's genocide because he rabidly wants to, at least with Trump there's a chance he might bail in the middle of it just because he's bored that day and he wants to cause some drama.
I disagree with that gamble. I'm tired of fighting today. I didn't mean for this to turn into an argument. I'm going to log off and cool it. Think over what everyone has been saying.
Just wanted to put it out there that we are comrades, even after this disagreement over something we both say ultimately does nothing.
Liberals on were saying that the pro Palestine protests the other day "looked to coordinated to be grassroots" and are "Russian influence" because "they have the same goal as Putin" which is apparently making Biden look like an idiot?
Know how I know these libs have never organized? Because apparently they think protests are when a bunch of randos decide independent of each other to go to a place and hold glib signs. They can't fathom that there are different groups that meet up and plan where the action will take place.
Ever wonder if youll be able to vote for a guy you aren't positive will fund a genocide?
Ever get tired of advocating for something so very disrurbing? It must be ennervating, right? You thought Trump would be gone after the last time.
Ever ask yourself why you ask for so little?
Is it the pragmatic choice to make yourself so small?
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Biden is putting Palestinians in the fucking ground, but they’re not your friends, nor people you care about (our only two options will probably both do this, but we must work with these choices God gave us and ignore this). He put migrants in concentration camps, continued the sanctions regime for the starvation of the citizens of enemy nations, and wrought imperialism across the globe. But this is the “same old America” and Biden is only a “straight fascist” when he comes for the precious Americans at home. Well he did that with the crushing of the rail workers strike and the continuation of the same old poverty and racist systems. Is coming for your queer friends the one thing that makes someone a “straight fascist”? Biden could have used federal authority to work towards the suppression of anti-trans laws in backward states, but he didn’t.
I love empty words, but tell me, what does this mean when you passively play the electoral game? What is this “effective change” and “praxis” (“all that good jazz”)?
I was told that a second Trump term would see the U.S. pulling out of NATO (objectively good) and a national abortion ban (the Democrats already allowed Roe v. Wade to be repealed, and the defense among them has been that Biden does not have the power to do anything about this, as, woe, he was born into the wrong branch; given Trump would be the president as well, surely he would not have the power to institute such a ban) along with a bunch of unsubstantiated uncreative Hitler 3.0 stuff like “Trump Youth.”
Biden is putting palastinians in the fucking ground and that is a complaint, but voting or not voting in this election doesn't change that. That's not on the table. US is going to commit genocide no matter the winner and it fucking sucks. But what do you want me to do? You want me as a cis straight white man to tell my queer friends that I'm willing to sacrifice their life and safety to make a point? For what? To what end? What's your preferred outcome here?
At the end of the day, I'm not an accelerationist. I have a preferred outcome here, and no amount of wishing for a 3rd choice will change anything. Not choosing ain't gonna stop the choice from being made. And I'll take the, however small, less worse choice than the other.
Voting as well has no effect on your effect you can do in your community. It doesn't effect the orgs your in or whatever activism your up to. The best case scenario is you own the libs and while they scratch their head wondering for the billionth time why we won't vote for them and change nothing, more people suffer than would have otherwise.
I am not willing to sacrifice people, especially knowing the groups targeted will not be me.
The dems have pulled this "You'd better vote for us because the other guy will literally kill you if they win!" thing since the 60s, they've just shifted around the minority group they target with their threats. Please listen to this 8 minute speech by Malcolm X, it's incredibly relevant here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg3dr-o4_fc
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
And what the fuck has Biden done about any of your concerns? You think he gives a fuck about LGBTQ people?
Don't you see that's the point? You're accepting the framework of the two party system. God gave us two options and it would be sacrilege to deny him! You're allowing the "harm reduction party" to do harm unchecked, where opposing them in any meaningful way is impossible because it leaves the door open for the other party. You're guaranteeing them unlimited stability so that you can feel good about yourself for "reducing harm" forever. It doesn't matter if you hate the genocide against Palestinians or imperialism if in the end you have the same total political impact as a geriatric suburbanite pig who loves Amerikkka and the Democrats to the core. Again, what is this nebulous "praxis" you referenced?
If your queer friends care more about the potential "harm reduction" done by staying within the lines and allowing the 2.5th Reich to carry on its crimes unchecked than actually promoting independent political organization by driving votes away from the two "options" while there is mass discontent and the potential for a better future either through abstention or voting/campaigning for PSL, the Green Party, etc., then they're not worth it.
I'm allowing the harm reduction party to do harm unchecked, and you are wanting people to suffer so they'll see the error of their liberal ways. What you are advocating for is turning that gun around and firing it until the point is made. I am not okay with sacrificing people to stand on pride. If even one less person would die voting for Biden over trump, that's my choice in this exact moment in time. I am not willing to sacrifice untolds number of people on the gamble that maybe the libs will get it this time.
You can tell yourself that all you like but we can all see that plainly isn't true
Yeah dude. And not voting is doing a world of difference. Basically won the revolution already.
Your insulting me for saying i cannot stand on my pride and tell others to sacrifice when I know I will not be the one to suffer. I don't have a choice in the genocide. Voting Biden, voting trump, voting none ultimately changes nothing because we both are small cogs in the machine. We are still comrades, even if you would rather insult me over it.
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I get your anger. I do not want to argue about it anymore. I got too emotional about this and need to log off and cool it. But I understand your anger and I share it. Im sorry if I implied some kinda moral superiority (bit more than imply) for my reasoning for voting. Ultimately voting does nothing and we both know it. I just cannot get past the reasoning I stated to not vote, but it is my own problem and I shouldn't of put that on anyone else.
We are still comrades, thank you for trying to convince me, I appreciate your view.
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Apologies for not seeing the pronouns. I'm not used to checking them yet. Not used to being somewhere they are so easily presented. Definitely something to work on.
My problem at this point is that I see this as a small issue and you are presenting it as one worthy of actual fascisism. I find your position extremely accusational and unreasonable.
You say I support fascism. I give my personal stance on why I feel I cannot abstain from voting due to the reasons I laid out and you insult me like Im wearing an SS uniform. I cannot in any fucking way see that as anything other but unreasonable anger with no actual belief behind it because that's fucking insane.
Do you really believe that? Are you genuinely really actually telling me that it's so important that I don't vote, that if you knew me and we were friends you would be taking a baseball bat to me over it? You would boot me from your org and kick my ass on the way out?
If so, I don't fucking understand. Spent all this time talking about how voting is pointless , both candidates are the same, voting changes nothing and turn around and say but if you put a name down in the hopes maybe less people would get hurt that you are a card carrying Nazi scumbag.
Your right, I don't understand you. I don't understand why you continue threatening and talking about physical violence you wish you could enact on me. I do not consider it a way to encourage me to see your point. I ain't a fucking Nazi. I ain't a fucking fascist. You fucking know I ain't and trying to gaslight me into thinking I am some kinda monster is just fucking mean. It's manipulative. It's disrespectful. It's angry bad vibe bullshit for what. You convince me not to do the thing that doesn't matter? Cool. Glad I lost sleep over this.
Maybe instead of acting aggressively in the hopes my fear of not fitting in, you talk to me like a god damn human being. Now I'm all emotional, insomniac, and just generally pissed off and it's gonna continue. Mental state ruined. Even saying all this is just more fuel to your fire.
Whatever. If that's your bar, that's your bar. If you don't want to be nice, I am not dependent on you being so. After all that I'm still going to call you comrade, because I ain't gonna let some petty bullshit discussion make me forget my solidarity.
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Holy shit, it's worse than I thought. I didn't think they would give a half-hearted corporate apology followed by several paragraphs of how sad 😩 you made them you meanie! How dare you upset them, the Main Character of the internet?
You'd think they'd consider why you keep saying that they're saying things that a fascist would say, and why you'd aggressively kick them out of any org you are a part of, but nope. You're just being mean.
They just don't seem to get that we aren't just being "mean people on the internet" but are being harsh and rude because we do not think their behaviour is in any way acceptable. This person wants to be friends, but doesn't seem to understand that if your friends tell you to stop being such a shitty person before you get bashed or killed, you should take that as a wake-up call and stop being so shitty.
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Yeah, shitlibs gonna shitlib I guess. I was hoping there'd be something a little more interesting here.
I don't think they understand that actual genuine anger at their words is pretty rare, and out of frustration for wanting them to actually improve, usually we just dunk on people who say dumb shit (like that guy with the reddit avatar). So fucking narcissistic, thinking that we need to "play nice" and stop being mean just because they said so. Kind of wish I was playing lib bingo tonight, would've probably gotten one.
Their final signoff was a lib classic though. "You could've changed my mind if you had just coddled me and let me keep my toxic ideas intact, instead I'm going to refuse to self reflect because of how mean you were to me!"
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Yeah, being harsh like this sucks for them, it's not nice to try and be friendly and have people get mad at the things you say, it hurts, but it isn't done out of genuine hatred, just anger at what they are saying, and hope that they improve in the future. I do think this whole conversation will spark a big change in their behaviour going forward, hopefully a positive one, or at least helps them on the way to one. They seemed more close to proper self-crit than most libs I've seen, so I hope they reflect on this. Probably good that it's stopping now, if I had kept going, it wouldn't be out of a desire to see them improve, but it would just be bullying them. I should probably self-crit a bit myself and work on improving my self control.
Good night!
Sometimes bullying is all that works. That is sort of why hexbear got its reputation.
I meant more that it would no longer be bullying them to change their ways, but just mocking them to be a smug douchebag, being cruel for cruelty's sake. That's never a good place to be in.
Maybe there's a little daylight between "bullying" by being firm and telling people they should be killed - and then acting incredulous that they thought you meant it.
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Yea, would punch them in real life
Not sorry
You stated above that you would still vote blue for the sake of your LGBTQ+ friends.
Does voting affect the well being of these peoples or does it change nothing? Make up your mind. It's either 1 or the other, you can't have it both ways.
The only accurate statement you've made.
They aren't the "harm reduction" party though. They are the "A lot of harm" party, and they are trying to scare you by saying that the other party, the "Potentially even more harm" party is worse.
Would you rather be shot in the arm or the leg? Which one? Obviously you'd rather neither one, but you MUST choose one. You must! And you must choose again in 4 years, where it will be your spine or your lung to choose from, but you MUST choose then as well.
I'm sorry, but participating in this system in the hopes that it "buys more time" for the libs to "wake up" is incredibly stupid. That's like participating in bashing someone up in the hopes that the other people bashing them will one day learn their lesson, while you're actively there, participating in the same actions as them. Don't you think that will just encourage them instead of waking them up?
If you want things to change, you start by making it clear that things need to change, instead of grumbling and accepting the status quo. Educating people on demanding more out of the system, (and hopefully much further than that) will do far, far more than just simply going along with the system and accepting the idea that being forced to pick between two actively genocidal parties is in any way acceptable. People vote because they, like yourself, seem to think that there is "no other option." Things will never change if this is how we operate. The way things change is by teaching people that there are alternatives, and they can actually demand things of their government, instead of grovelling and begging, but always falling in line.
Here's that Malcolm X clip again, since you must've missed it the last time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg3dr-o4_fc
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
I watched the video. I watched it again here. The problem for me is that Malcom X is talking about black folk. He is talking about their block and advocating for essentially self sacrifice at the hands of his "worse option" to make a point. I am not black. Nor am I queer. Nor am I a woman. I am not a target. It is not my sacrifice to give. It is not within my right I believe to tell someone who will suffer that it's necessary to make a point when I know for a fact that I will not suffer. I know for a fact that I wouldn't be a target. I cannot make that decision in good conscious because I am not the one who will pay that price.
How can you honestly be this dense? We've got a dozen people here, all telling you the same thing, and you refuse to get your head out of your own ass and listen to them. VOTING WILL NOT SAVE ANYONE. VOTING ONLY PROVIDES LEGITIMACY TO THIS CORRUPT AND BROKEN SYSTEM THAT HAS GOTTEN THIS BAD DUE TO THIS KIND OF COMPLACENCY. YOU ARE NOT A HERO FOR VOTING FOR A GENOCIDAL WAR CRIMINAL, EVEN IF HE IS GOING UP AGAINST ANOTHER GENOCIDAL WAR CRIMINAL. YOUR VOTE WILL CHANGE NOTHING, AND WILL DO NOTHING EXCEPT STROKE YOUR SMUG EGO. Fuck you.
Literally since the founding of the country we’ve never had 50% or more turnout. People who abstain from voting have been the majority in this country this whole time. If not voting fixed a broken system why isn’t it fixed if the majority already don’t vote?
Yes because its never been a democracy.
Do you ever think about the reasons why voter turnout is so low here? Consider, by comparison, Cuba, which has over 90% voter turnout. What is different there to here? Why do so many more people (percentage-wise) vote in Cuba than in the US?
Instead of spending your time in here getting insulted (which is what is going to happen if you keep commenting in this thread), you might instead go research voting in Cuba. Try to answer for yourself why their voter turnout is so high. Then ask yourself if we here in the US can learn something from the way Cuba does politics.
Or you can stay here and get dunked on. You do you.
Nice of you to acknowledge that I’m mostly being insulted and dunked on, but if that was going to stop me from commenting why would I even use Lemmy, or any social media?
Voting in Cuba is pointless for national elections. It’s a one-party state so each candidate runs unopposed in their district. One-party states are bad. There is nothing the U.S. can learn from voting in Cuba, it is one of the least democratic countries in Latin America.
Voter turnout has been 88% or better in Australia since 1925. Why didn’t you list them as an example? Voter turnout is good there because voters are fined a few hundred dollars for not voting. They have a mandatory voting law. That could increase voter turnout in the United States, but if it didn’t come with rules that employers must give their employees time to vote, and states must have fair standards for registering to vote, then it would just be fining poor people for being poor.
Other things the United States could do to increase voter turnout: make Election Day on the weekend instead of a Tuesday, which was selected so farmers traveling by horse and buggy could get to the polls. We don’t have that many farmers anymore, much less ones that travel by horse and buggy. That’s really the only rule at the federal level on how states run elections, other rules to increase voter turnout would be implemented by individual states. Early voting, mail-in voting, the ability to register to vote when you’re interacting with a state office anyway, like when you get a driver’s license, or pay your taxes. Letting people vote after they’ve served their prison sentence. Letting people vote while serving their prison sentence. &c.
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Seconded, please mods
Thirded plz
Ok, thanks for telling me who you are! I can now comfortably join the group of people telling you to fuck off back to reddit.
Man, you can't even name the elephant in the room filling the room with elephant shit: the electoral college makes voting for president outside of like 6 states entirely pointless, which would obviously have an effect on voter turnout. People tend to not want to waste their time voting in a sham election where the results are already decided. You've wasted your time in Hexbear posting a bunch of garbage for what? So people living in New York, Alabama, California, Arkansas, Massachusetts, and Texas can be convinced to check Biden's name as if we don't already know who will win those states.
"Hexbear has had a track record of antisocial users who will do anything to get offended at anyone, for any reason." --Hexbear front page
OK, that explains a lot.
I left out abolishing the Electoral College because that would require a Constitutional amendment, which is much more difficult to do than get a bill through Congress, or a state bill through state congress, which is all those other solutions would require. Amending the Constitution is also a possible solution for any political problem in the United States, I thought it went without saying.
Fuck the Constitution, it was written by cracker slaveowners seeking to enrich themselves and create a cracker ethnostate.
I think the US needs to be dismantled and destroyed entirely. No names, monuments, or anything reminiscent of the US needs to be completely destroyed and thrown in the dustbin of history and it's physical lands returned to its original owners, because it's what it deserves, having it's entire history bathed in the blood of colonized people.
That's the only thing that'll make this right.
Preach to em
I'mma stay talkin that TALK 🗣️
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How can you just sit there and type "Cuba has elections where only one person is allowed to run for each office"? It's such a stupid thing to say, as though any country would willingly make an exhibition of its own falseness like that. You would do well to actually research Cuba instead of relying on information you got through cultural osmosis from tar-mongers in Miami. In Cuba, you run as a de-facto independent against everyone else, and indeed that includes challenging incumbents. I hope you weren't the same person pretending to be a communist elsewhere in the thread while spreading the most moronic misinformation about a country you've clearly never researched. Like, you know that the US, the entity that you've admitted was fascist as shit just earlier, has been slandering Cuba for close to a century now, right?
I'd rather have one workers' party than two capitalist parties.
If I wanted to speak to a smug redditor, I'd go to reddit.
And your a hero for not voting? Neither of us are. We ultimately will not change anything and this argument will do nothing but effect me and you. I have my reasons, I have explained them. I am sorry if I said explicitly and implied that it was a more moral choice to vote than to not. I let myself get emotional and said things I do not really believe. I cannot in my own mind be okay with not voting for the reasons I stated. This is not a judgement. It was, now it is not.
At the end of the day we are comrades. We have the same goal. I'm sorry we both got angry over something so pointless.
You are not a comrade. You are the Dixiecrat Malcolm X was talking about. I see the knife in your hands, you won't stabbing my back.
Don't pull this "we both said some mean things, so let's both say we're sorry and make up" bullshit. I said some mean things, you were advocating for voting for a genocidal war criminal on the grounds that another genocidal war criminal might win if they don't.
Would you have voted for Himmler over Hitler? Picked the "harm reduction" nazi? Would you have been insisting that "sure the system is broken, but we must vote, if voting for the harm reduction nazi would save even one life, then it is a moral duty to participate in their sham elections and give them the legitimacy they need to stay in power!"
Look, I'm done arguing about it. I made my point, you made yours, we both agree it's pointless. Neither of us came in with the possibility of being convinced, and that isn't going to change with more arguing.
I will in fact pull the "we both said mean things, say sorry and make up"
You don't have to say anything. You can keep being angry, I have already gotten you there and I apologize for that. Doing this now I'm sure will just make you even more mad. But please understand that I get your anger. I share it. We are closer than we are apart. We share the same goal.
Have a good night friend.
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I already said that I didn't come into this conversation with intent to be convinced. Apologized for that, and tries to disengage on good terms. Call that a fucking high horse all you want, I call it recognizing that I am defensive and needing to settle that mindset back to an open state before being able to do self crit.
That shit takes time and a proper state of mind. Of which I am not in right now. And you instead choose to tell me to die and call me a fascist that you'd beat.
I am being as open about that as possible, your acting as if for every second I don't declare I won't vote for Biden another genocide starts up.
You kept pushing it. I'm not even arguing the idea anymore. I am just arguing about why will you not let me kindly end the discussion on good terms even after I acknowledged that I couldn't, at this moment, dissect my entire stance on voting because I had become emotional. Why did you need to keep pushing it towards hate?
Because I came off as a smug piece of shit? Because I wanted to feel some solidarity with a fellow commie after a disagreement? I'm trying to learn, I have been on a growing journey my whole life. I was a full ass Nazi in a racist ass shit fucking town as a kid and I have done so much to grow past that. All I fucking wanted was to end the conversation so I could think about everything said in a less defensive mindset and feel some good vibes from a peer.
You ruined that for me. You made me feel like shit, I'm even more defensive, and now got to work through all these bullshit feelings of being a "traitor" in some random fuckers eyes before I can begin even considering what you and others said.
Does that mean you'll finally go away?
They will for three days at least.
Thanks :D
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Slapped em with a 3 day ban so hopefully they take the hint that their bullshit is not welcome here.
Kinda surprising coming from a lemmygrad poster.
Even I'm questioning how that mf got in
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Im no mod but that false version of politeness they and other lib bastids all learn by watching Rachel maddow et al gets my back up so hard.
And watching people trying to honestly explain the way the world works while they acted both like the adult in the room and a witless babe at the same time was getting me extra riled up.
They're a liar, i know it in my bones. I think you took it too easy on them
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You don't share our anger though! We are angry about a genocide that you want to give passive support towards! Ok? You don't "get it" at all, and you need to get off your smug high horse and admit that to yourself, that you do not understand why we are mad at you. Fuck off with this faux "I understand really!" bullshit, you're not fooling anyone except yourself.
You're not a comrade by any definition, you're a fascist sympathizing genocide supporting scumbag who hides behind the struggles of marginalized people to advance an incoherent politics centered around YOUR sense of personnel comfort
It's quite obvious real world suffering has absolutely no valence on your beliefs except as rhetorical tools to bludgeon people who upset your comfort-centered sensibilities
You are a comrade of genocidaires, not us. You are no more our comrade than the SPD was to Thalmann
Theyll never get it, thats the point. The third world suffer eternal because liberals dont care if thr wrist bending doesnt work
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Oh, here's your problem! You are thinking like a child. This is what a child thinks elections are. You'll never understand my position because you don't understand the problem.
Your words are empty to me because i can tell by your attitude you do not "hear" what i am saying, or even hear the why of anything.
How could you? You are too busy deciding that everything, even genocide, must be viewed through the lens of the coming election.
Good god there's gonna be a lot of masked liberals "talking sense to the left" coming up, huh?
Get better copypasta, because "don't you care bout my queer/brown friends?" is already played out.
Wow, perfect! The liberal view in a nutshell. Things only have relevance to libs through the lens of the next election to them. Insight unlocked.
Genocide is a little bit more than a complaint. Especially given that americans are supposed to stop Trump from doing the exact same thing.
You think anyone's gonna take your unprincipled ass seriously when you call genocide a fuckin "complaint", you don't care about queer people motherfucker, you hide behind their struggles trying to maintain your crumbling sense of normalcy
I want Trump to win precisely because liberal cockroaches like you will be forced to pretend to take genocide seriously, and in that way LESS people will indeed suffer, because there will be more pressure to oppose fascism unlike today when even the libs have gone full Nazi
Imagine taking his unprincipled ass serious when he can't even spell Palestine correct when the fuckin nation's been in the news for six fuckin months
I'd sacrifice every cishet white Amerikan in this country for any oppressed subject-of-empire in the world in a New York minute. Death to the settler empire, death to the DNC. Voting absolutely does affect my community; do you realize that Biden has sent more military surplus through the 1033 program to PDs all over the country than Trump did with the same amount of time? The cops in my city are two steps and another humvee from being a whole-ass new branch of the military, some City Force-type shit, but "voting doesn't affect the orgs in my community", fuckin sure.
I hope to Fuck you're the first one to learn the consequences of your electoralist garbage.
Yes you fucking are, you're willing to sacrifice 40,000 Palestinians and counting
Hey as a queer person, fuck you. Get my community out of your fucking mouth. Biden has not done one single thing for me or for my community. Do not support genocide in the name of "protecting queer people." Genocide does not protect us. Open slaughter of thousands upon thousands of innocent people does not protect us. Hiding behind the queer community in defense of genocide is cowardly and wrong. "Oh yeah well I have a queer friend" is the new white asshole way to say "well I have a black friend!" I am queer and you don't get to use me as an excuse for genocide.
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getting a lot of mail out of the facts machine today
What has genocide Joe done to stop fascist state legislatures from passing anti-trans legislation? What has he done to prevent them from forcing women to give birth? What has he done to protect the victims?
I don't know how to tell you this, but a conservative catholic octogenarian with a lifelong history of supporting racists, homophobes and oligarchs is not going to be a progressive just because there's a D next to his name.
Those are valid complaints, and all day fuck Joe biden, but at the end of the day I am not an accelerationist. I see no argument from a leftist perspective for not voting for our shitty option unless you think things getting worse will make them better faster. What is the outcome you have in mind? Don't vote to stick it to the libs, trump gets elected and then we all suffer that much more? For what?
Your choice isn't between accelerationism or not, it's how funny your buffoon in chief will be.
Considering the last 4 years of actual events, what makes you think your friends will be any safer under Biden than Trump? He hasn't stopped any of the anti-trans legislation during his presidency, or anti-abortion, or anti-immigrant - who are you trying to protect? Who do you think you are protecting by voting 100% Hitler instead of 100% Hitler?
It's the difference between lackluster do nothing, or active harm. Biden hasn't stopped it but he's not using his platform to push it. That's a small difference but it's a difference that effects actual people. Is one person not enough for you? Either all must be saved or just let other people make the choices? If you can't have who you want you don't get the privilege of not getting something. Your going to get something weather you like it or not. And I know I'm not going to be the target under trump. I don't have the right to say the people who would be targets arent worth it.
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And how many of these would still be happening under trump? You act like if you don't vote that there's a chance neither will happen. One or the other will become a reality. Which would you rather live in for your immediate future? None isn't an option.
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Stop othering me. We are still comrades here.
I get what your saying. I'm saying that when they both are the same, the degrees by which they commit these atrocities is the only thing up for consideration. In that scenario my morals dictate that I must advocate for the side I thing will ultimately result in less tragedy, even if I believe that to be slight. A single life makes it worth it.
We don't have to agree friend. I know this is a touchy subject for us, especially now and I'm sorry for implying that I was in any way morally superior for my choice over yours and I hope you feel the same. Ultimately the only thing this conversation effects is me and you right now. My vote and your lack of one will change nothing. Neither of us can stop it. Let us not be angry.
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Buddy, I'm just tired of arguing over something we both agree doesn't even fucking matter. I apologize for grandstanding, I let myself get emotional about justifications that only really apply to me and my state of mind.
I am trying to take the high road in the sense I want to be less angry about it. I want to be less angry and less emotional about something we both agree doesn't matter.
Like, saying I support all that shit for what? You know I fucking dont. I wouldn't be here if I did. Your just angry and being insulting and I just don't want to fight about it anymore. Weather you like it or not, we are still comrades and trying to act like the issue of voting, which we both know doesn't do anything ultimately anyways changes that is why I want to stop arguing.
We are too angry, too emotional, about fucking nothing. And I'm sorry I pushed it this far. I knew how it'd be seen and I wanted to argue my case anyways. I didn't come into it with the ability to be convinced and neither did you. It was pointless to start and has done nothing but make my night one of insomnia. So I'm sorry. Hate me if you want. I'm just trying to genuinely tell you I'm sorry for letting it get here.
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I think I realise why this guy is making me so mad. I would've been this "well meaning" left-lib white-splaining why "lesser evilism" is great actually about a decade ago. I see my own past smug ignorance in this guy. Someone getting angry at me and calling me out on my bullshit helped me along the path to understanding how ignorant and smug I was being, while thinking I was "helping" disenfranchised people, when the only thing I was really helping was my own ego.
I hope they take this conversation to heart and actually listen to what we've been saying to them, and seek to understand our opposition to them instead of trying to pull this "reaching across aisle, we can agree to disagree" lib shit. I do think they "mean well" they're just completely unaware of how harmful and impotent their attitudes actually are.
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That's the thing, they think it is genuine. They think they are "seeing the person on the other side of the screen" and we are failing to do the same. Any time I ever see anyone trying to remind the person they're talking to to "remember the human" it's always someone insisting on "humanity for me, not for thee."
They just flatly aren't understanding that we've seen plenty of people in their position before, and seen those people get better and improve, and examine their own beliefs critically.
I've seen this exact thing in plenty of local organising (and in myself). The guy who encourages us to vote for the "least bad" candidate in bourgeoisie election and discourages others from reading or actively doing anything they find uncomfortable because it "won't help." Finding some excuse as to why their way of doing this is the only correct one, and when they receive pushback, it is always just "people talking past each other" even when it's literally everyone else in the room telling them that they understand their position, but their position is not an acceptable one to have.
It's always a comfortable middle class white guy doing it as well. Someone so used to eating up all the oxygen in the room that they just flat out aren't even aware that they are doing it.
And yeah, their constant insistence that we are "friends" is just code for "This conversation is challenging my pre-concieved notions and making me feel uncomfortable, so stop doing that." but again, they don't seem to realise that we've seen this before, and know how bullshit they're being.
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Yeah, I just saw that, funny how the left libs always talk about respecting people, but abandon that respect the instant they are no longer treated as The Most Important Person In The Room. I think this was just a mistake on their part, but we'll see. I have a feeling that their apology (if they even acknowledge that they misgendered you) will be incredibly backhanded and blaming you for their actions.
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It was even worse than I thought! You should read it, it's hilarious. They're lucky it's late and I need to head to bed soon, or else I'd probably spend the next couple of hours dunking on this shitlib who thinks they're a communist because they're "open minded" or some shit.
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What is up with you calling me a fascist genocider? Is that really the line for you? If you could kill me right now would you? Am I deserving of that to you? Another guy in the thread thinks so. Tell me you want a fellow communist dead because of a disagreement on voting.
Y'all forget that this text box is a whole ass human being on the other end trying to genuinely connect and talk with you. I didn't come into this conversation to be convinced and that was poor conditions for this conversation, and your going to throw around your big enemy words to what, guilt me? Make me feel bad? Just wanna hurt me? What do you want from me?
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Completely unrelated but thank you for putting into words what pisses me off so much about my dumbass lib-Trot housemate
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Mutual aid
Edit:
You are no comrade. Delete your useless account, you stupid, breying jackass
Death to Amerika, you settler fuck
Biden is a fascist, you shouldn't imply he isn't.
You can make a 99% Hitler vs 100% Hitler argument if you want to, but you shouldn't pretend it's fascism vs no fascism. Zionism is fascism and should be labeled as such.
Zionism is fascism, Biden is a fascist, but Biden ain't the one talking about declaring himself a dictator. Sure it's 99 vs 100% Hitler, but there is no other option. And my morals say that when you have a bad choice and a worse choice, you don't stand on pride and choose none just for the choice to be made for you.
Did Trump ever seriously talk about "declaring himself a dictator"? When you are only given the choices between 99 and 100% Hitler you reject the system and actually utilize the mass discontent instead of voting for the "least bad bad guys" regardless, effectively guaranteeing whatever they do is acceptable as long as they do not become the other guys.
https://apnews.com/article/trump-hannity-iowa-town-hall-d9cad413851b60f6c0abd2a564d86338
Yes, here is him saying it.
My personal or our group rejection of the system has no actual material effect except to make things worse. You can't just reject society without having the organized structure in place to actively rebel against it. Just not participating does nothing but make things worse.
Voting doesn't stop you from organizing, unionizing and joining local organizations. It does nothing at all but make things worse. Is your argument accelerationist? Do you want things to get bad before getting better? If not I don't see the point in your stance. I don't want to be mean, I don't mean to be rude. I genuinely do not understand. Do you not care what happens tomorrow?
Freudian slip. It stops you from directing votes away from the two parties and showing that changes have to be made.
And who has to suffer in the meantime while we see if that gamble pays off? I'm just not willing to make that decision. I can't in good conscious knowing the fact that more people would suffer under trump than Biden. That's my simple calculus.
This doesn't mean anything unless your head is still filled with magical liberal thinking. Either he has the power and support to be in power indefinitely or he doesn't. People who can and will do coups don't usually care about how you vote.
There is another option lmao, it involves everything around a bourgeoisie democracy
And my moral tells me that if I don't live in a small pool of like 6 states, there's absolutely no point in thinking about, let alone voting for, who gets to be president. Not all of us live in Georgia or Michigan. And unless you live in one of those 6 states, congrats, you've wasted your time and energy on something you have absolutely no control over.
There is another option. The French knew that when their Kings and Queens told them to eat cake.
The fact you don't even consider that is sus. Gaslightng even.
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I think you misunderstood me. I am saying do not just go vote and then chill. Voting does not stop you from organizing, volunteering and getting involved in your local community and leftist orgs. I'm saying voting is not the be all end all. It's not the secret weapon. But it is a small, basically functionless tool for harm reduction.
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#resist
So you should vote for trump then. If you believe him to be the less harmful of the two options. This is me baiting you to tell me you think trump is a less harmful option. Or did you not understand what harm reduction means? Or was is just not enough people whomst harm would be reduced for you to think it's worth it? Or is the people's whos harm would be reduced not be worthy of it?
I cannot in good conscious as a cis straight man tell my non binary partner that they need to be the sacrifice to the political statement of "sticking it to the libs"
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I am not saying shit didn't get worse under Biden. I am saying between Biden and trump that I believe it would be worse under trump and I do not see it within my rights as a group that wouldn't be targeted to cross my arms and say that I won't participate and risk people who would be targeted. I cannot in my own mind be okay with that. It's not my choice. I'm sorry that I implied moral superiority for this mindset. I understand this is my own personal hangup and I got emotional and argumentive. Sorry.
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Harm reduction is when you vote for a fascist who arms and funds Nazis in Ukraine, while arming and funding the mass murder of innocent children. Harm reduction is when we decide that genocide is not a red line, this time
Genocide is happening either way, I believe the liberals will do less of a genocide because they at least try to pretend like they aren't doing it. Trump wouldn't care as much. More people would suffer. It's a small insignificant chance in terms of numbers of bodies on a page, but I truly believe less people fucking die this way. Is that not enough?
How many human beings need to live over the other option to make it worth it to you? For me it's 1. And I genuinely believe Biden will kill at least 1 less person at least. I am not willing to sacrifice that person on pride.
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Just because voting doesn't matter in the way it's advertised doesn't mean it actually has no effect whatsoever. It does. Just not the one we was told. That means not to rely on voting as the be all end all, but recognizing at times we can shift things ever so slightly away from the worst case scenario.
As for reduction, it doesn't require biden to do anything other than not make things worse than trump would. You answered the question. You believe that harm reduction as in, avoiding a worse outcome of an already bad outcome isn't worth it. If you can't have good, there's no point stopping the worst. I do not understand that stance, besides being blinded to material outcome by anger. I do understand anger. I feel it with you. I just cannot allow that anger to put people on a sacrificial block they don't have to be on.
I pain for the palastinians. I cannot express that enough. But right now, with the methods readily available to us, I believe that trump would ruin more of their lives too. I can't be so angry as to remove myself from the outcome and pretend that it wasn't my fault.
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There is no point talking anymore. You are angry and resorted to insulting. I understand your anger. I share it with you. I genuinely do. Above all else, understand that.
In the end, neither your nor my actions will do anything at all. Me convincing your or you convincing me has no effect on anything but each other. Understand, please, on my own morals of wanting the least amount of people to suffer at any given time, i just believe less would suffer under Biden. That is enough for me to be unable to not vote.
I'm sorry this has driven us to this angry place. But as a comrade, which we both are, I love you. We are on the same side. Have a good rest of your day friend.
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Inb4 their "So much for the tolerant left, now that you've scratched me, I have no choice but to abandon leftism entirely and become pro-fascist!" response.
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Oh yeah, I just meant their next response will be the typical "left lib" thing of "waah! You were mean to me on the internet! I was going to hold my nose and vote for a genocidal fascist and feel really bad about it, but now I'm going to do it with pride and support his every action because you were mean to me!" thing they always do in this situation after they try their condescending "let's just be friends" thing they do.
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I was extremely uncivil to them in my last reply, so they're likely to high road for a bit because I got mad about them insisting that voting for genocide is ok if it means only 999,999 people killed instead of 1,000,000.
Because genocide is one of those things we should just calmly talk about the pros and cons of, instead of opposing entirely.
I've sometimes wondered what a lot of self proclaimed "leftists" would've done under Nazi Germany, and now I know. They would've insisted on voting for the "harm reduction" Nazi.
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Figures they love Joe Biden so much, they seem to think that loyalty is something given automatically without question instead of something earned.
Fuck off. They're going to have to invent a new insult because I can't think of one bad enough to call you.
Fuck you and everyone reading this since I'm sure you're screen capping a bunch of these and posting them in whatever fash hellhole you come from
Fuck you and I hope you reap the consequences of your shitty politics faster than the rest of us.
Trump is a less harmful option. Biden is funding Israel's genocide because he rabidly wants to, at least with Trump there's a chance he might bail in the middle of it just because he's bored that day and he wants to cause some drama.
I disagree with that gamble. I'm tired of fighting today. I didn't mean for this to turn into an argument. I'm going to log off and cool it. Think over what everyone has been saying.
Just wanted to put it out there that we are comrades, even after this disagreement over something we both say ultimately does nothing.
Why do you think people aren't organizing
Because they're a liberal who has never considered political action outside of voting for the anointed dem every 4 years.
Liberals on
were saying that the pro Palestine protests the other day "looked to coordinated to be grassroots" and are "Russian influence" because "they have the same goal as Putin" which is apparently making Biden look like an idiot?
Know how I know these libs have never organized? Because apparently they think protests are when a bunch of randos decide independent of each other to go to a place and hold glib signs. They can't fathom that there are different groups that meet up and plan where the action will take place.
They didn't see the march advertised on Twitter with a link to buy your own merchandise before hand so they assume it isn't a real protest.
That's true. We all know liberals won protesting with the pussy hat parade.