He can't go any further right, so he can't be pushed right. Ergo, he can only be pushed left. Libs owned us yet again oooaaaaaaauhhh

  • FlakesBongler [they/them]
    hexbear
    94
    3 months ago

    Also, it's great because the same people who said we could push him left are now mad because... we are trying to push him left

    • Infamousblt [any]
      hexagon
      hexbear
      49
      3 months ago

      You can push him left! You shouldn't try because that would be UNCIVIL, but, you know, you could! In theory!

    • @Great_Leader_Is_Dead
      hexbear
      29
      3 months ago

      Don't worry I'm sure once Trump loses a second time he'll totally fizzle out and the RNC will far apart, then you can push Biden left cuz the US will be a one-party... oh wait.

        • @Tinidril@midwest.social
          hexbear
          1
          3 months ago

          Awesome dig. But, it makes me wonder. Have you or your strategies made any progress, or are you just not trying to push the boulder at all? In which way are you not Sisyphus?

          • @robinn_IV
            hexbear
            52
            3 months ago

            Have you or your strategies made any progress

            How far have you pushed the boulder? I've pushed it sooo far that it's publicly saying it's a little annoyed about the genocide it's perpetrating. That's progress.

            • @Tinidril@midwest.social
              hexbear
              1
              3 months ago

              The increased aid isn't nothing. It's not enough, but it's something we might not have without people pushing that boulder. It's also just one issue. Overall Biden's administration has been much further left than his history predicted.

              • @robinn_IV
                hexbear
                46
                edit-2
                3 months ago

                Soooo much further left. How’s that border wall coming?

                Wrt US aid, it literally is nothing, it’s PR nonsense. You CANNOT be left wing and propping up/funding a genocide.

                • @Tinidril@midwest.social
                  hexbear
                  1
                  3 months ago

                  That nothing aid is saving lives. You clearly care more about being smug than helping Palestinians. If it were Trump I guarantee it would be worse.

                  • @robinn_IV
                    hexbear
                    39
                    3 months ago

                    You stabbed me once, but the other guy would stab me twice? Wow I gotta vote for the lesser evil. That nothing aid is NOT saving lives as it’s coupled with complete support for Israeli settler-colonialism. It’s not a genuine gesture to help Palestinians, it’s a cynical PR campaign. The way to help Palestinians is to get the US OUT of Palestine.

                  • Rod_Blagojevic [none/use name]
                    hexbear
                    38
                    3 months ago

                    Are we talking about literally dropping aid onto Palestinians and killing them while also funding an army that's committing a genocide against Palestinians? That's not what I call saving lives.

                    I guess I'm just a smug asshole?

                  • BountifulEggnog [they/them]
                    hexbear
                    36
                    3 months ago

                    https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/08/middleeast/gaza-airdropped-aid-deaths-intl/index.html

                    The airdropped aid literally killed people, because the US refuses to stand up to Israel and tell them to let aid in other ways.

                  • Rom [he/him]
                    hexbear
                    32
                    3 months ago

                    You know what would save Palestinian lives? Making Israel stop their genocide, something Biden absolutely has the power to do. Why isn't he doing it?

                  • ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]
                    hexbear
                    30
                    edit-2
                    3 months ago

                    Here it is, we found it, the molten core of self-delusional liberal fascism

                    You boneless, bloodless fucks are like those cannibal ghouls in warhammer who live in an Arthurian hallucination and are fully convinced they're noble questing knights

                  • D61 [any]
                    hexbear
                    27
                    3 months ago

                    Flour Massacre.

                  • Egon [they/them]
                    hexbear
                    14
                    3 months ago

                    Yeah the 3.8billion to Israel are sure to help Palestinians. Get over yourself, just admit you're fine with genocide. "Oh this other guy wants to do it even more" isn't a real argument, I'm not voting for the other guy ever, I'm telling the first guy that I might, if he doesn't do genocide.

              • D61 [any]
                hexbear
                38
                3 months ago

                We're feeding the people who are being shot by the people we are arming.

                lets-fucking-go

                Progress!

          • ashinadash [she/her, comrade/them]
            hexbear
            51
            3 months ago

            There are huge pro-Palestine protests going on in the states, (and elsewhere) have been since October 7th. He still refuses to budge a fucking inch, funding & arming the genocide whilst USian citizens get in shit for supporting Palestine.

            That boulder?

            • @Tinidril@midwest.social
              hexbear
              1
              3 months ago

              I didn't ask "which boulder". To put it plainly, my question was what different strategy from pushing Biden left has achieved something more, or whether they just prefer to be a bystander and jeer from the sidelines.

              Biden is far from perfect, but he has indeed been pushed to the left on many issues. Based on his record it would be fair to predict that he would be right of Obama of Clinton, and he has generally been further left. (Not a high bar to clear.)

              • ashinadash [she/her, comrade/them]
                hexbear
                65
                3 months ago

                Are you a complete asshole? He is literally funding and arming a fucking genocide. Where the fuck do you draw the line if not at genocide?

                He has not been pushed left on anything. He canned his student debt relief plans, he's currently in the middle of lettings tons of anti-trans bills pass while pushing a bill that includes a ban on pride flags at embassies and such. He is not dramatically different from any Republican, he still puts kids in cages at the border.

                You remind me why I hate liberals so passionately.

                • @robinn_IV
                  hexbear
                  49
                  3 months ago

                  He’s NOT perfect okay, nobody is. Sure there’s the genocide and the concentration camps and the border wall and the strike breaking and you know what? Look, we all make mistakes, that’s what makes us human. Like Jesus said, let anyone who is without sin throw the first stone.

                • D61 [any]
                  hexbear
                  41
                  3 months ago

                  I mean.. I know he's murdering babies... but like... its not OUR babies. maybe-later-kiddo

                  • Rom [he/him]
                    hexbear
                    47
                    edit-2
                    3 months ago

                    You think Palestinians would be better off with Trump?

                    Oh my god shut the fuck up. Biden is literally arming a genocide against the Palestinians right fucking now. You don't get to pull this "well the other guy would be worse" line when your guy is committing actual war crimes with zero remorse. "Well you see under Trump Israel would slaughter 300 civilians every day compared to the 250 civilians per day being slaughtered under Biden" fuck you.

                  • Infamousblt [any]
                    hexagon
                    hexbear
                    43
                    edit-2
                    3 months ago

                    What line are we drawing? Maybe "don't do a fucking genocide" is a good place to start. Sounds like you support the genocide though. How does that feel to know that you are supporting the senseless slaughter of an entire people? Does that feel like you're doing the right thing? Bet you won't answer though

                  • @robinn_IV
                    hexbear
                    37
                    3 months ago

                    You are a liberal. Oh, sorry you’re a Bernie-supporting leftist who wants the US to be like Sweden without understanding at all why they aren’t or why Sweden is.

                  • Egon [they/them]
                    hexbear
                    18
                    edit-2
                    3 months ago

                    You think Palestinians would be better off with Trump?

                    Are you trying to argue that it would be easier to make trump stop funding a genocide? The reason people on the left say that they will not vote for Biden due to genocide is because they hope he might stop.

          • Infamousblt [any]
            hexagon
            hexbear
            42
            3 months ago

            I'm not pushing on that boulder no. I'm doing lots of actual effective organizing and effort elsewhere though. Stuff that makes real differences to real people. So you keep wasting your effort on voting for genocide and I'll keep cleaning up the mess you make. Hopefully someday you stop wasting your time supporting genocide and instead start spending it doing something that matters

              • @robinn_IV
                hexbear
                52
                edit-2
                3 months ago

                Genocide isn’t on the ballot? Wow, maybe we should violently overthrow whatever “democracy” doesn’t let you vote against genocide. The popular vote amounts to those fake steering wheels in cars for toddlers anyways.

                • @Tinidril@midwest.social
                  hexbear
                  1
                  3 months ago

                  So that's your alternative? A violent overthrow of the US government? Ignoring the fact that it's not possible, there would be no Palestinians left by the time it was done. The aid would certainly come to a swift end.

                  The left (including myself) couldn't gather enough support to nominate Bernie, but you think you can put together a cohesive army to overthrow the US by force? And who's to say the left would even be in control when the smoke cleared? You are just being ridiculous.

                  • @robinn_IV
                    hexbear
                    35
                    3 months ago

                    So that's your alternative? A violent overthrow of the US government? Ignoring the fact that it's not possible, there would be no Palestinians left by the time it was done. The aid would certainly come to a swift end

                    It’s not impossible, and with the US aid coming to an end there would also be the end to support of the Israeli settler regime, support which vastly overpowers this aid.

                    The left (including myself) couldn't gather enough support to nominate Bernie

                    LMAO.

                    And who's to say the left would even be in control when the smoke cleared? You are just being ridiculous.

                    No material analysis. The reason you think the left doesn’t have support in the US is due to opportunism and the dual interests of labor in the imperial core. So, if the dust settles and US interference abroad had crumbled, it would certainly be the left in control. Read Lenin’s Imperialism.

                  • Rod_Blagojevic [none/use name]
                    hexbear
                    29
                    3 months ago

                    You can't even say the genocide is inevitable but at least you'll get an increased minimum wage with Biden. He's actively creating the false scarcity where reactionaries thrive. He's their partner in this disaster. It doesn't really matter if you vote for him or not because it all leads to genocide, but I'm telling you I'm not voting for him.

              • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
                hexbear
                31
                edit-2
                3 months ago

                So did you miss the US putting forward a weak ceasefire resolution at the UN Security Council? Yeah, it wasn't good enough (and that's why it failed) but that's a huge leap from where we were before when the US was absolutely opposed to a ceasefire. That sure as hell looks like a result of electoral pressure. The uncommitted campaign did that, and if it weren't for fucking coward Blue No Matter Who's like you we'd actually be able to push Biden on the issue.

                If we fail it's your fault.

                • @Tinidril@midwest.social
                  hexbear
                  1
                  3 months ago

                  I supported the uncommitted campaign. Biden is still better for Palestine than Trump, and you still have no viable path to a third option. The politics of outrage just drives people away.

                  You're just defining a tiny in-group, then putting everyone else in an out-group. There is no room for building alliances or cooperation because everyone else is just the enemy. It wouldn't even matter if we had rank choice voting, you would still be irrelevant.

                  • MolotovHalfEmpty [he/him]
                    hexbear
                    30
                    3 months ago

                    You blinkered libs repeat this ad infinitum because (assuming you actually believe it) you've made the farce of red vs blue American political theatre your whole world. I don't view the world like that, users here in general don't, and most people aren't American voters.

                    But it also doesn't even stand up to scrutiny on its own merits if you assume everyone is an American electoral obsessed lib like yourself:

                    • The Biden admin is committing genocide, factually and materially right now. The fact that another admin in all likelihood would is still less certain than the unshakable material reality of actual current events.

                    • Given the evidence of the previous Trump presidency, there's every reason to believe that a Trump admin would be less competent and less functional, which could prove better for Palestine and America's victims.

                    • Trump would actually receive opposition both politically and in terms of laundered public opinion from liberals like yourself, thr Democrats, and potentially the few diehard never-Trump Republicans. That would also be an improvement over an admin that skates by without real opposition and that you're insisting even those opposed to it have to offer support to.

                    • Trump has historically been unpredictable on foreign policy and diplomacy with foreign leaders. He's more prone to shifting his position on the basis of grudges, flattery, social connections, hell, even being bought off potentially. When the certainty is continued, unlimited genocide, any uncertainly is an opportunity for improvement.

                  • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
                    hexbear
                    28
                    edit-2
                    3 months ago

                    The whole fucking point of the uncommitted campaign is to leverage our support to force Biden to capitulate to our demands.

                    You aren't willing to do that. You are committed to Biden and thus undermining the uncommitted campaign, because you're telling Biden that he can do anything he wants and you will support him. You and every Blue No Matter Who like you are responsible for Biden not being responsive to demands from his electoral base until recently. They really thought they couldn't lose enough votes to matter and we can pressure him by making it clear that he is going to lose if he supports genocide. Already he has been moved on this issue and we can move him farther. He should know I'll vote for him if there's a permanent ceasefire, UNRWA funding, and an end to military support for Israel.

                    That's the viable third option - we force him to capitulate and end the genocide. We can do it. Why are you undermining us?

          • Black Charlie White@lemmygrad.ml
            hexbear
            36
            edit-2
            3 months ago

            Honestly, I'm willing to let the boulder flatten the 'shining city' behind me at this point. Nothing I've seen on this earth, being trapped by wage slavery in paycheck-to-paycheck binds that keep me from escaping, has led me to believe that 'shining city' is still worth saving. Maybe something better can be built of the rubble the boulder leaves in its wake.

            You genocidal settlers are not my countrymen.

          • casskaydee [she/her]
            hexbear
            22
            3 months ago

            Have you or your strategies made any progress, or are you just not trying to push the boulder at all?

            You've admitted yourself that the uncommitted campaign is the only thing that has actually served to push him to the left, so yes? They have. Your plan to be committed while lying about being uncommitted can only serve to undermine our effort in the long run, so fuck off, liberal scum

          • Egon [they/them]
            hexbear
            18
            3 months ago

            Lmao have your strategies worked? "We can push them left" has been the motto for several decades now, and were are we? The Dems won't even fight for abortion rights anymore. This was unthinkable 8 years ago. The platonic ideal of a compromise the left has been sold has time and again been proven to do nothing but cede ground to the right.
            The reason Dems masturbate to the word "bi-partisan" while screaming like demons at any who dare suggest they should maybe worn with their left wing base, is because the Dems know they don't have to appease that base as long as troglodytes like you keep regurgitating the same tired mottos instead of giving a shit.

          • Wakmrow [he/him]
            hexbear
            16
            3 months ago

            Well I voted for Hilary so no that strategy didn't work.

            Now I didn't vote and just make fun of liberals online. Learned my lesson.

      • Rojo27 [he/him]
        hexbear
        27
        3 months ago

        He got pushed so far left that he ended up being in the far right. Horseshoe theory do be like that thoughsadness-abysmal

        • @Tinidril@midwest.social
          hexbear
          4
          3 months ago

          Whatever is available? The uncommitted votes seem to have moved his rhetoric (which does help change opinions) and contributed to increasing aid to Gaza. He's not where I want him to be, but it is something.

          I totally understand complaints that he hasn't moved enough, but if that's not connected to some kind of effort to do better than it's kind of pointless. People who have achieved nothing shouldn't be mocking those who have achieved something.

          • TechnoUnionTypeBeat [he/him, they/them]
            hexbear
            30
            3 months ago

            and contributed to increasing aid to Gaza

            While still abetting a genocide

            Sending aid to Gaza is fine in a vacuum, but it's fucking meaningless when he's the one assisting in the genocide

            • @Tinidril@midwest.social
              hexbear
              1
              3 months ago

              I'm not sure the people who got those meals agree with you.

              50+ years of American foreign policy is aiding and abetting this genocide. The position Biden is in at this moment gives him limited leverage. The second he drops aid to Israel, that leverage is gone. Threats are dangerous if following through makes you powerless.

              A series of small punishments maximizes leverage in situations like this. Kill one hostage at a time, and you are taken seriously. Kill all the hostages and you get taken out. Israel has other places to go for aid and alliances. America needs a foothold in the Middle East, and Israel works far better than Saudi Arabia which has its own genocide going on.

              I think Biden should be moving faster, but he has the right strategy. Turn up the heat a bit at a time to maximize leverage instead of pulling all support "on principle" and burning all the leverage for nothing. I care more about outcome than purity.

              • MolotovHalfEmpty [he/him]
                hexbear
                12
                edit-2
                3 months ago

                Biden has all the leverage. The Israeli state cannot function as it does without massive support - financial, political, military - from the USA. Hell, they can't even carry out this genocide to this extent without US (and it's allies) help. They're relying on the US and UK for targeting info and having support and surveillance flights (at the very least) run out of RAF Akrotiri in Cyprus. They're used British and American mercenaries and volunteers, signing deals with fucking Blackwater (now renamed) for land grabs in Gaza.

                You seem to have created and swallow this bizarre rubric about imaginary 'gaining political leverage' that does not reflect any actual relationship to material reality.

                How has the US turned the heat up? By doubling down on blocking and vetoing international efforts to get Israel to accept international law? By starting a military conflict in the Red Sea to break a blockade of Israel? By granting and proposing more new massive spending bills that will send weapons and support to Israel? By pressuring it's allies and puppet states to defund the only real UN organisation on the ground that not only provides aid, but could actually observe and report the scale of the deaths and atrocities taking place? By giving it's media apparatus carte blanche to triple down on spewing disinformation, already debunked atrocity propaganda, and genocide justification? By proposing and supporting massive crackdowns on free speech and protest from the streets to college campuses?

                And what are the achievements for Palestine the Biden admin and US allies have supposedly won? Fuck all.

                If there's even an ounce of sincerity in you and your argument, then put aside all the vague, unquantifiable political media talk about leverage or political capital or diplomatic strategy and look at the simple facts. What has happened. What has been done. What hasn't been done. Not press statements, not political speeches. Material reality.

                And if you can't do that, then it's time to admit to yourself that all this spurious logic about imagined restrictions or political game playing is just veil you've thrown over the fact that you simply do not care enough to oppose or perhaps even support the horrors of this genocide. That you're telling yourself you're not party to it as you watch more and more people die, perhaps hoping that Israel can just hurry up and finish the job so you can throw up your hands and say, 'we tried but it was too little too late'. You can cling to that veil to try and tell yourself you're one of the good, moral people if you want. But people here are telling you, it's so fucking sheer that everyone else can and will see right through it to what you are.

          • MolotovHalfEmpty [he/him]
            hexbear
            25
            3 months ago

            What does the Biden admin 'changing their rhetoric' while still doing the exact same material things do, except help launder and disguise the continued participation in genocide?

          • CyborgMarx [any, any]
            hexbear
            19
            3 months ago

            Aiding and abetting genocide is just a "complaint" to you?

            Honestly my guy if that's where your at, why not just be a Trump supporter, it's clear you have no principles or sense of morality so what's holding you back from going all the way, is it the decorum?

            • @Tinidril@midwest.social
              hexbear
              1
              3 months ago

              That's what you think you read? I can't even figure where you think you see that. No, that's not what I think.

              • Black Charlie White@lemmygrad.ml
                hexbear
                18
                edit-2
                3 months ago

                I totally understand complaints that he hasn’t moved enough

                You absolutely labeled taking a stand against Anglo-Saxon settler-colonial genocide as a complaint. The party you claim we can 'keep leverage on' is not JUST an accomplice; they have provided aid, materiel, and comfort to the Zionist murderers. If this were any of the terrorist organizations the NSA has fomented in the last 20 years, every single person who pencilwhipped Israel's funding would've faced a firing squad by now; but because Fortress Israel is the settler mongrel's bulwark in the middle east, it's suddenly all sweet, right? It's suddenly not a genocide, and worth incrementally letting you bastards turn Gaza into a fucking parking lot, right?

                I spit on your bloodline.

              • CyborgMarx [any, any]
                hexbear
                16
                3 months ago

                I totally understand complaints that he hasn't moved enough

                You literally called people's opposition to Biden's support for genocide "complaints", are you high on something? You can barely conceal your racism you dumb fuck lmao

              • Egon [they/them]
                hexbear
                10
                3 months ago

                You don't understand those complaints. If you did you wouldnt be talking down to people like this.

          • casskaydee [she/her]
            hexbear
            15
            3 months ago

            You contradict yourself in a single reply here.

            On the one hand you admit "The uncommitted votes seem to have moved his rhetoric ... it is something."

            But then you go on to contradict that by implying we've "achieved nothing". You seem like you're not a serious person at all. Or at the very least not intellectually honest.

          • Egon [they/them]
            hexbear
            10
            3 months ago

            The uncommitted votes seem to have moved his rhetoric

            Wow so you're telling me it's working and we should stop? Great idea idiot

      • ZWQbpkzl [none/use name]
        hexbear
        21
        3 months ago

        I see you support the uncommitted movement and thats good in my book. However, do you think the left should vote uncommitted in the primary but still vote for Biden in November?

          • Tachanka [comrade/them]
            hexbear
            42
            edit-2
            3 months ago

            Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. American support for Israeli atrocities has been bipartisan foreign policy for decades. Both Biden and Trump are rabid on this issue. The only difference is that democrats will pretend it's the Likud party or honestly just Netanyahu's fault and not the actual inherent nature of a settler colonial regime. Republicans don't bother with such formalities. They are more honest about their bloodthirst. (I wonder why? Could it be that looking at Israel is like looking in the mirror for Amerikkkans?)

          • ElChapoDeChapo [he/him, comrade/them]
            hexbear
            32
            3 months ago

            How? How can things possibly get worse? What do you even think Trump could do to make things worse for people who are already being starved to death while being bombed?