Join and make it less lib. It’s that easy.
The only way you’d make it more lib is if you think you’re more lib than DSA 😳 👀
To those of you requesting I move my posts proselytizing people about joining an organization over to /strugglesession I have but one thing to say:
Join an organization
To those who repeat the line “I believe in democratic centralism so I won’t join” I say: so do I. If that’s such a sticking point for you to not join DSA, which organization practicing democratic centralism are you currently a part of?
Do you think Lenin or Mao woke up one day with a perfectly structured organization laying at their feet comprised of only those who held similar beliefs to them? Of course they didn’t. They crafted and cultivated these organizations and revolutionary mindsets for decades before seeing the fruits of their labor. If you aren’t organizing you are not only not a revolutionary, you are a counterrevolutionary. Are you waiting for a perfect movement to be waiting at the foot of your bed one morning instead of putting in the labor to craft one you see as suitably revolutionary? Not to even scold you, but factually your absence from organization based on personal ideology favors only the capitalist and harms only your comrades.
There might be things you don't like about the DSA, that's fine and valid. But if the left is going to win, we need to fucking cooperate. The DSA isn't perfect, but there's no such thing as a perfect org.
Ask the Floridians and Mainers who's wage got raised if the DSA is too lib.
Ask people from Boulder, CO who are now protected by No Eviction Without Representation if the DSA is too lib.
Ask the Oregonians who now get universal Pre-K paid for by the rich if the DSA is too lib.
All 3 of these were campaigns DSA put in serious work on.
But most importantly, ask the rich how they feel about the DSA. There's no active American org out there (with the possible exceptions of some of the larger unions, who the DSA supports) that has separated more bourgeois from their money.
Ask the working New Yorkers who lost their jobs due to COVID but were ineligible for unemployment benefits because of their undocumented status who are now being allocated $2.1 BILLION in unpaid wages ($15600 per person in an untaxable lump sum) if DSA is too lib for them.
this is literally what entryism means and it is widely recognized to be a terrible strategy. the organization will change you, not the other way around.
I am ambivalent about whether the DSA is too lib or not but when people complain about trots it's because they waste time on stupid crap like this and wind up as neocons
saying "organizations change from the inside" isn't the same as "we should join an organization to change it from the inside"
What the actual fuck. If this is the best that the USA can get to the mainstream, third worldism becomes more true day by day. Even the neoliberal ANC in my country practices a form of democratic centralisation. (A hold over from their more radical days, but still)
The radical history of South Africa is pretty impressive, the amount of skill and purpose that existed is mind numbing. There are few places more apt to show intersecting aspects of capitalist repression than the history and the resistance, too.
I can only wonder how a post apartheid could've looked without a crash of the Soviet Union and viable alternatives to neoliberal WMF and chicago school policies. A radical ANC(?) could've been a huge stepping stone for economic democracy in the country.
The Trot SALT recently joined the DSA, wonder how that's gonna turn out?
probably the same way entryism has turned out for them the past 100 years
We should take the same approach Lenin took with the UK Labour Party. The DSA is a bougeois workers organisation.
Join, but do not compromise views or aims and ruthlessly criticise non-revolutionary views. You're not there to do things, you're there to radicalise the base.
This is a good point, thanks for contributing to the discussion comrade. I'm with you right up until the last sentence - why not participate in good DSA campaigns? There are certainly some campaigns the DSA conducts that are pretty goofy (see @guydebord's local experience) but I think collectively throwing our weight behind only good DSA work does even more to further the cause than just participating in the org solely for the purpose of discussion.
Absolutely, reformist concessions are important, but they are primarily important in strengthening and radicalising the working class. In order to prevent complacency we should be clear about any DSA work being simply a first step, or even a propaganda move to far more radical change. At all points our view of a worker-controlled society moving towards stateless, moneyless, classless communism should be advanced.
Bingo. You are there to combat liberalism. They have built the organization in such a way that everyone has an equal voice. Make yours the loudest and most sure and you’ll undoubtedly win people over
If you think you're too good for the DSA and that the folks in it are literally no better than standard libs, IMO you're about 2 steps away from being a leftcom.
That sucks. DSA-LA spent the last 2+ years literally watching over homeless encampments making sure police don't do sweeps, breaking into vacant homes owned by the city to move people in to squat, and fighting police in the streets. It's pretty sweet.
Edit: oh and setting up a community mutual aid fund and support network once the pandemic hit to help people get food, money, and other stuff.
In their defense they thought that $2000 checks would go out the door immediately
for real it's like americans just forget about the rest of the world regardless of their political leanings
I've seen a lot of complaints about leftist forums being too american as a dogwhistle for anti-idpol types but the basic complaint is valid
e.g. everyone has extremely rigid high horse opinions about the DSA and american politics but somehow it's funny to pull up random conflicts from wikipedia and be like "which side do you choose?" like they're proud nobody here knows shit about dick outside america
real, valid, and valuable input comrade. I think it can't be helped that a lot of this site's discussion is America-centric; so many of us are Extremely Online and English is the most accessable language for a lot of this stuff, and those facts lend themselves to heavily American discussion. I hope there's something to be learned from the discussion we have in this thread and how it relates to local equivalents for you.
^ not a :LIB:, thank you for fighting the good fight comrade :red-fist:
Onboarding is a big one - that was my biggest hurdle to joining my local DSA. This is just my two cents but work to make sure that you have structures in place to personally communicate with new members. Make them feel welcome as individuals and give them the tools to feel like they are making a difference as soon as possible. Good luck :heart-sickle:
Echoing this 100 percent! I'm loosely a member of my local chapter, but one big reason I've never found a clear niche where I feel like I can help/make a difference is the lack of real onboarding infrastructure.
YES SIR THATS WHAT I LIKE TO HEAR! This is a true communist and organizer
Portland DSA in the pre-covid times had weekly potlucks with mostly vegan/vegetarian food.
Weekly potlucks build communities.
You could be the hardlinest MLM in the world
Marx, Lenin, and Mao would all laugh at you ignoring a simple opportunity to engage with your community and build relationships as comrades through mutual aid like this
I joined DSA during COVID so I haven't had a chance to go to a meeting yet, but this is my plan.
Unironically ironically shitposting my way towards empowering the American left
echoing @notthenameiwant - this is so toxic that the feds ought to be paying you to spread it. The DSA has been victorious in minimum wage hikes, rent control measures, and strong environmental legislation, on the level of entire states, in the last 6 months alone. You won't catch me saying they're not at least a little lib, but "a little lib and saving the proletariat from abuse by landlords and employers on a scale of hundreds of thousands of people" is a lot better than whatever you want to call "not lib" that presumably comprises nothing but turning leftist infighting to a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I love comparing active socialists doing good work on the ground to the police. Good thing I can make this point online without ever having to make a difference on the ground.
This take is straight toxic.
untrue!
good things is when you feel morally superior for your own inaction in light of the flawed actions of others
bad things is when people could potentially make fun of you for the flawed actions taken by people you choose to associate with
geez its like you dont even read theory:
'to indulge in irresponsible action in public instead of passively putting forward invective about the organization. to say something to people to their faces, instead of gossiping behind their backs, or to interrupt at a meeting, not gossip afterwards, which is just so rude. to show regard for the principles of the collective, instead of following ones own heart. this is definitely liberalism' -seatguy moo
okay? :very-smart:
good things is when you feel morally superior for your own inaction in light of the flawed actions of others
bingo lmao. it's not even worth getting mad about. it's funny seeing losers poke their heads up and own themselves the moment anyone here is like "hey go volunteer somewhere".
uhhh... wha? viola, violin, voltron.. valium? you offering? o oooh, volunteer! :cat-confused: why would i do that?
edit: more theory for you libs, okay?
'to let things drift if they do not affect one personally; to say as little as possible while knowing perfectly well what is wrong, to be worldly wise, yet play safe and seek only to avoid blame. this is totes awesome' -seatguy moo
yes the democratic socialists of america are the same thing as the police force. this is the most well-adjusted possible opinion and definitely not minimizing the violence of the state.
:thonk:
This is understandable but join now anyway and maybe just try to get involved in even phone banking or something!
Just join any org and do shit irl pls. The USA is so far from a revolution at this point that it doesn't really matter which leftist org you join tbh. Is the DSA overly liberal with stuff like straight up banning democratic centralisation within the org? Probably, but it's still good to join and go do stuff irl with other members and comrades, and actually advocate for and accomplish things within your local community.
If Mao could ally with fascists for a goal that would only be realized 20 years down the line, we can ally with AOC to attempt to build on what little left momentum there is here in the US
The Soviets were also twisting Chiang's balls pretty hard but you got a point
Everything is remote right now! But comrade, if you do not join that small ass organization immediately and influence them with all of your communist might you are a lib.
In all seriousness, the smaller the org the better. Then you (the commie) are a higher percentage of people involved and have more personal relationships with the people in the org. That’s what organization is all about!
Then you (the commie) are a higher percentage of people involved
brb starting an organization with 100% commies (it's just me) :sicko-hair:
This is fine and good. That’s just you organizing and 100% valid
Comrade, I am so proud of you and it is things like this that makes the whole post worth it honestly :heart-sickle:
