Yikes
Most of them are saying that it's exploitative and aren't attacking the workers themselves?
As if that's the argument against this moralizing bullshit and it's not about criticizing this paternalistic holier-than-thou attitude taken by supposed leftists. Sex work is work, just like any other. And under capitalism, most people are forced (directly, through threats etc.) into it, or coerced into it my their material conditions. If China managed to free some people from it and allowed them to pursue what they wanted, then that's great. But to go from their to claiming sex work is "immoral" or something is something that deserves to be called out. You can say most sex workers are exploited and that the industry is exploitative without being anti-sex work. If you have any actual material arguments for why sex work is "bad" then let's hear it.
Pointing out the particularly exploitative parts of prostitution under capitalism and that they should be addressed by removing the necessity of that work to survive seems pretty reasonable to me. No shaming of sex workers or sex work, no celebration of punitive approaches directed at sex workers...
One of the "sex work defenders" there was saying that sex work is necessary due to people with disabilites.
Imagine repeating incel shit in order to "defend" sex work.
The argument that sex work is a fundamentally different category than other work, that no one has ever expressed agency in choosing sex work, the flattening of all sex work into prostitution, the argument that only white imperial women willingly choose sex work and that therefore any woman who chooses sex work is a white lib, that every sex worker is constantly being raped even if they don't know it, the downvoting of sex workers who disagree, the framing that all sex workers need to be rescued, claiming sex work couldn't exist in a socialist/communist society, actively mocking sex worker activists, mass downvoting people who say you should have the right to choose sex work as work, screaming that sex work is never good. All pretty swerfy.
Are you suggesting that sex workers are equally able to understand their situation and consent as children?
It is a form of violence against sex workers but dont say sex work is rape, it is an extremely bad look. There is economic coercion but that isnt the same as an individual actor having sex with you without your consent.
Yeah the landlord would be a rapist
Rape is a very serious topic. Be straightforward with your language, dont attempt any sleight of hand.
“Sex work is rape” is a sleight-of-hand on who the implied perpetrator and victim are.
Okay buddy.
Even if youre only making comparisons, don't call something rape that isnt actually rape. It cheapens rape.
I'm not denying the suffering of full service escorts buddy. It just isn't rape. Have you talked to any actual sex workers about their lived experiences? Because it doesn't fucking sound like it.
I've done sex work and I've been raped. They aren't equivalent. I dont feel like arguing this out in detail, because I don't feel like triggering myself over some Ben Shapiro "Not an argument" wannabee.
Dude, I'm not a mind reader. You're comment comes off a very different way than you meant it.
I can't find half these sentiments in the comments. I mean there are definitely yikesy stuff in there but that hardly constitutes a majority.
Then you aren't looking because they're absolutely everywhere. It is, no doubt, the vast majority of the thread. Linking seems pointless because it's almost every comment.
I did look.
the argument that only white imperial women willingly choose sex work
This is an extrapolation from a single comment that argues that sex workers in the imperial core are more privileged and therefore lack perspective when it comes to the specific issue at hand. I don't agree with this but it is in no way saying that only white women choose sex work.
any woman who chooses sex work is a white lib
See above.
that every sex worker is constantly being raped even if they don’t know it
They are saying lots of depraved shit happens in the industry as it currently exists.
the downvoting of sex workers who disagree
Yeah, not a good look.
the framing that all sex workers need to be rescued
They argue that the sex industry is exploitative, yes.
claiming sex work couldn’t exist in a socialist/communist society
Because the conditions that create the need for it will have ended.
mass downvoting people who say you should have the right to choose sex work as work
Instead of pointing out the fact that people who disagree are downvoted, wouldn't it be better to criticize the reasons behind it (e.g. the responses)?
It literally says "exclusively white women in the imperial core" disagree. And it's far from the only comment with that sentiment.
Lots of depraved shit in the industry =/= every single sex worker being a constant rape victim.
All industries are exploitative but that doesn't mean sex workers need rescuing from sex work on particular (discussing one particular segment here, not the many, many people forced into sex work). They need liberation from capitalism.
And I don't see why the conditions for sex work well cease in a communist society. People will want sex and may not be able to get it otherwise. People will want to watch porn. Etc.
And I don’t see why the conditions for sex work well cease in a communist society. People will want sex and may not be able to get it otherwise.
So in our communist society, when we've eliminated money and the need for it, we're going to somehow compel people to fuck incels who otherwise wouldn't?
This comment really demonstrates that you're viewing prostitution from the perspective of the client, not the people being exploited.
Only if you assume that literally no one would ever choose sex work
People would choose to have sex, that's not "work". It's work when you have sex when you don't want to, which isn't something that anybody would need to do in a communist society. Other kinds of work are things that are necessary, having sex with incels is not one of those things. This is honestly so dumb.
Sex as a commodity wouldn't exist in a communist society, just like any other commodity. But till we have money, some people will choose to engage in all sorts of sex work (that isn't just sex). Being paid for something isn't conditional on hating/being forced into doing it.
I agree with everything you've said. You'll notice my issue was with the OP saying that having sex with people who want it but "can't get it" is somehow going to be a form of work in a communist society.
It’s work when you have sex when you don’t want to
What the fuck kind of definition is this?
It's like diabetics selling nudes on only fans for insulin money. It's fucked up that is happening. But if they had insulin and still did it because they enjoyed it that's fine.
The context of what is occurring under capitalism is why it's fucked up.
You should not have to have sex with a stranger to be allowed to live. 95% are coerced into such work by capitalism. Many of them living in poverty overseas, especially south east Asia.
I have zero issue by the remaining % on OnlyFans etc. that enjoy and wish to engage in their work. Their work is valid.
These are two separate things. It is possible to be pro-voluntary sex-work, whilst still acknowledging the forces of capitalism that force millions to sell their bodies in order to put food on the table.
These are two separate things. It is possible to be pro-voluntary sex-work, whilst still acknowledging the forces of capitalism that force millions to sell their bodies in order to put food on the table.
Yeah, that's what I'm doing, while the GZD thread denies the existence of the first group.
That's a braindead liberal argument.
So what if privileged white women want to be sex workers? There are plenty of women who want to be Wall Street executives as well. Their desires aren't the correct measure of what's good or bad.
The reason why it feels to you like people are white knighting is because you're actually white knighting your friends, and you just don't have any self-awareness.
my friends work for insurance companies lol have you ever interacted with one or is your analysis purely online. stop with this <some incoherent liberal category> shit it’s almost exclusively redditor men who pull this shit even tho most insurance workers are women/nb. its so patronizing / without any real life experience informing it
Sex worker co-ops with access to armaments and the option to leave the profession at any time as well as a full license to kill abusive johns and pimps?
Nobody is into selling their body
lmao, plenty of people are. They're just usually not the ones who need to do it for a living.
I'm quoting a comment from the thread that was saying that, and then replying to it.
GZD always malds over sw because they're a bunch of conservatives, you can set your clock to it.
We will remain pro sex worker but never pro sex work.
That's the most up voted response to the person defending sex work, is that bad?
Why is the person defending sex work so massively downvoted? Makes that rhetoric seem extremely hollow, especially in the light of the rest of the thread.
I mean, what swerfs outright say "I hate sex workers"?
The response to their second (long) comment lays it out pretty well. Abolition of sex as work is abolition of the patriarchal system that fosters it.
Sex as work is a method of control that allows for the imposition of class power over an individual. Sex is a deeply personal thing that should not be treated as an act of social labor and more as an act of a free individual.
If you want to fuck, go ahead. No one's stopping you. But the existence of sex as work implies that it's being done to pay for ones subsistence when that should be done through labor. Sex should be a leisure activity.
that should be done through labor.
There are some people who would rather their labour be sex work than say standard customer service or factory work. It's a hard subject to deal with as the current system is so steeped in exploitation, but should all sex work be banned? Even socialist countries require some coercion to exist as labour is necessary to provide for the population (for now and the foreseeable future at least), so is sex work less worthy than other types purely due to its nature or just because of the current exploitation?
I really think that it's such a niche thing that it's not worth even exploring until the abolition of the capitalist system. There needs to be a complete destruction of the current system though. If something reforms later under more equitable conditions, it can be handled, but preserving any form of the existing sex work system is not good and will result in the reproduction of the same existing power dynamics that currently exist.
Also I'm gonna let the sex workers make those decisions for themselves after they're provided for and given access to free education, housing, and alternative employment options.
Yes for sure things would need to be completely restructured from the current system . I do think its worth discussing and thinking about what those replacement options might be though, at least a little as it is good to gauge how people feel about the subject, a lot of socialist countries have had very conservative views on things like relationships and sexuality after all and is something that needs to be worked on in a lot of international leftist groups. Any actual functional details of how such a system might actually work should really be left to the people that would actually want to do sex work given the option though.
It's not like we are all going to work at the widget factory during communism, there will be almost as many jobs then as there is now (less need for pointless shit like PR or marketing) , so if someone wants to fulfill their obligations via sex work when given the option then I don't really see the problem. Not something I'd consider or need personally but some would, there are already people working as sex therapists etc.
The stats would mostly be made up by right wing think tanks.
So long as we keep sex work illegal we wont be able to know.
I think a drive to abolish sex as work while also supporting the sex worker and providing a safe venue for the fulfilment of sex as work until the contradiction can be resolved by the workers themselves is about the only option.
Also there's a huge assumption that a lot of people making that like you can go to a job fair and choose "sex worker" right now when in reality it's a heavy combination of people who do other labor and need to supplement that wage income with sex work and people who have been trafficked either as children or as immigrants and are essentially slaves.
Until the only version of sex work is "part time sex work", I don't even think this conversation is productive. No one's saying part time sex work is bad, it's the other kind that's horrifically common everywhere that's the problem.
It's the /r/GZD version of "I have no problem with Chinese people but fUCk thE sEE-SeE-PeE"
*ducks
And the same as the Christians saying "I love gay people, I just can't support their lifestyle".
its a cornypost. whats the proposed solution to this unique social ill? the "nordic model"? this blinkered prudishness masking as materialist analysis correctly describes sex work as necessitated by workers' conditions, but then can't make a distinction between the work and the conditions.
I really don't think there's even a way to discuss the continuation of sex work until the rotten core of it is revealed and removed. Modern sex work is primarily through either boyfriend style pimps or trafficking of children and teenagers. There is also the landlord situation of sex for rent (either the landlord or someone who pays the rent for sex).
These sorts of things cannot be allowed to exist. They need to be rooted out and destroyed. Some form of legalization and assistance to sex workers will be helpful, but there's a lot of generational trauma built into that system that can't be taken out.
Abolition of the current model of sex work is an absolute necessity. Abolition of sex work as a necessity for subsistence needs to be a priority. Abolition of small scale operations and even individual operations needs to stop (individual as in on the street). There needs to be a registry and active effort to check on as many people as possible to make sure they're okay.
Formation of legalized and safe environments for the temporary continuation of sex work in a safe way is also necessary. You can't abolish that system overnight, that'll just drive out underground and make the abuse worse. Bring it to the surface and shine a light on it, make sure everyone's safe.
As the trauma fades and the workers themselves begin to gain more autonomy, then you might have a system that's okay, but it's not an industry that you can just flip a switch on.
We all sell our bodies to eat. That's the basis of wage labor.
Singling out sex worker's for doing it is.
By isolating and moralizing sex worker's right to work, you implicitly differentiate their work from others and make it more difficult to have legitimate labor discussions around legalization or organizing.
It's not really about being an incel. It's about how people treat fellow workers.
Chapo/hexbear/shrekland/citationsneeded listen to sex workers Challenge.
Edit: here's a freebie for you tweeters out there
why would I listen to sex workers if I already know sex work is evil? checkmate
You feel differently about your private parts. You shouldn't speak for everyone in that. As someone who used to be a sex worker (because it was the easiest way for me not to starve), not everyone sees it the same way you do.
Of course, there's room for exploitation in sex work, but that comes from it's illegality moreso than from anything else.
I'm begging you and anyone who feels simarly to listen to that podcast, read work from the sex workers project, or both.
No matter the society, not every person feels sex as an innately intimate experience.
All of the examples or situations you named (which there are a lot and I'm not sure exactly where to even start) aren't specifically sex work. Those are situations (like a relationship) or hierarchies (like with your boss) that's nowhere near the situation a safe sex work Environment has.
I don't think your viewpoint is horrible by any means. I just disagree with you.
I also don't think you come off as debate-bro-y and hope I don't, either.
In the end, sex work under capitalism will be exploited in the same way as every other type of labor. There can be no real liberation until it's outside a capitalist system. All sex workers are asking for, though, are the right to be treated as actual and legal work.
Edit: just as a side note, if your boss asked you to wash his car or clean his feet that would be weird and uneasy, too. Not because they're sexual acts but because it's a weird fucking thing for a boss to ask to do inatead of regular labor.
We're anti-work, but also pro-choice. If people are forced into sex work, or any other type of work, either by threats or simply material circumstances, then obviously that's bad and an ill of capitalism. But to go from there to saying sex work as a whole is somehow immoral is just ludicrous. What China did, as far as I can interpret from that picture, is probably a net positive for those people, given the sheer number of current sex workers who'd prefer doing something else if given the choice. But that thread isn't just saying that. They're going a step further and claiming all sex work is "immoral".
I don't know, i haven't looked at all the comments, but imo sex work is immoral tho not because i think having sex is immoral but because i think taking advantage of others economic situation for sexual gains is immoral. And in the massive majority of sex as a commodity that happens.
They're not saying sex work is immoral. Normal sex, as in, the work that goes into the physical reproduction of human bodies, is sex work. Your brain is so full of capitalist ideology that you think that work is only work if it's mediated by capital.
Normal sex, as in, the work that goes into the physical reproduction of human bodies
LOL gays aren't real amirite fellow leftists
Gen Zedong being based, as usual.
Defending sex workers =/= defending pimps
No one is defending pimps, or saying people should be forced into sex work, either by threats or material circumstances. But it is a huge leap to go from there into saying sex work, as a whole, is "bad". Like, I agree, what China did (at least as it is portrayed in the picture) is a good thing given that most people today are not sex workers independent of their desire to survive. But that is very different from, again, denouncing sex work on immoral grounds. That is not "based".
The most boring, uncontroversial leftist formula is "commodification of X is generally bad" (X being some important social or cultural relation or institution, or whatever) but for some reason, lib brains get so triggered when X = "sexual relations". It's like their CIA programming kicks in and they become physically unable to think straight and start arguing against some random ass point that nobody made.
