President Vladimir Putin said on Tuesday that Russia would be prepared to talk to Ukraine, the United States and Europe about the future of Ukraine if they wanted to, but that Moscow would defend its…
Hasn't this been Russia's position the entire time? I've only ever seen them actively trying to have peace negotiations over the past decade, much to the chagrin and mockery of Ukraine and the West who declare it either SUBTERFUGE or WEAKNESS.
This headline in a western news outlet is, to me, more of an indicator to me that the West is now bored with this proxy war, wants to end it and is looking to save face.
Is that what you call invading a sovereign country?
It's not even like this is the first time Putin has invaded another sovereign country,
Ukraine isn't a sovereign country and hasn't been since the US couped their democratically elected leader. You can't be a sovereign country if a foreign country has veto power over your elections.
Let’s say you’re right (which has problems of its own I’ll address later) and that Ukraines’s democracy has been subverted by USA, that doesn’t make a military invasion and armed occupancy a righteous or even justifiable act.
This makes no sense, first you stake your position against the invasion because "Ukraine is a sovereign country" and then you turn around and say it doesn't matter that it's not sovereign. Pick one and stick to it.
yeah you said "which has problems of its own I’ll address later" but didn't address anything later, so instead i responded to what you said in that reply
The condition of the Ukrainian state is literally the crux of the entire conflict since 2014, what are you on about?
and that Ukraines's democracy has been subverted by USA, that doesn't make a military invasion and armed occupancy a righteous or even justifiable act.
It does when that subverted state begins to suppress ethnic minorities and political opposition, your argument rests on willful ignorance of the conflict and the Ukrainian state's actions in Donbass and the genocidal threats it regularly issues to Crimeans who DO NOT AND HAVE NEVER considered themselves Ukrainian
Sorry bud, but intervening in a vicious civil war brought about by the violent overthrow of an actual democratically elected government, is not the same thing as unprovoked aggression for the sake of land grabs as claimed by historically brain-dead liberals
Why doesn't Putin just say that? Why would he insist on mislabelling this as an "SMO" instead of a war of liberation?
SMO is just a technical political title for the operation, Putin's rhetoric concerning Crimea and the separatist states has been quite clearly centered on unification, independence referendums and international recognition for their secession from Ukraine
Are you asserting in the whole two years of this war Putin has never mentioned the separatist republics?????
I'm not sure how correcting the term that you repeatedly used is "whataboutism". Surely you meant something when you wrote "sovereign country" multiple times? It's just inaccurate, it would be like referring to the US as a kingdom or referring to Washington D.C. as a country.
Why doesn't Putin just say that? Why would he insist on mislabelling this as an "SMO" instead of a war of liberation?
Modern countries don't like to call their wars a war for some reason. The "Special Military Operation" labeling in particular is based Ukraine labeling their war against the Donbas Republics as an "Anti-Terrorist Operation". Russia did state that one of their goals was the liberation of the Donbas Republics.
And why wouldn't Russia use the same means to subvert their subversion instead of resorting to bombing civilians?
Russia is far worse at subverting countries than the US is. The US has massive experience in fomenting color revolutions in foreign countries, using NGOs to undermine foreign governments, and in supporting far-right movements within countries and using them to topple or put pressure on those hostile (to the US) governments. Russia did attempt to use diplomacy (for eight years) to stop Ukraine's bombing of civilians in Donbas but that didn't work out. Russia tried one last resort by diplomatically recognizing the Donbas Republics but that just caused Ukraine to start shelling the Donbas even harder.
Don't tell me....the verified evidence of countless war crimes are just propaganda right? For which you're going to offer no counter evidence.
All war is a crime and all wars come with war crimes. Some war crimes were committed by Russia, some were committed by Ukraine and then blamed on Russia, and some were pure atrocity propaganda that was just made up. The made up atrocity propaganda was so bad that the Ukrainian Rada (parliament) had to fire their commissioner for human rights. She was just spreading made-up atrocity propaganda and also wasn't bothering to organize the evacuation of civilians.
As for the accuracy of your accusation - do you have some sources? I'm interested to read and learn about your viewpoint. Assuming that it's not just your armchair intelligence briefing.
Here's an overview. Click the links to get details about the parts you're interested in.
The short version is that the National Endowment for Democracy (a CIA cut-out) has openly spent over $5 Billion dollars to "promote democracy" in Ukraine. Do you remember how much the US freaked out over Prigozhin (Wagner guy) spending a hundred thousand dollars in order to "promote democracy" in the US? John McCain and Victoria Nuland openly met with the protestors and announced their full support and the backing of the US. Nuland had a leaked phone call where she was hand-selecting the new leader of Ukraine. The new Ukrainian Finance Minister become a Ukrainian citizen the very same day she was sworn in as Finance Minister.
As a bonus. Here's one of the guys that McCain met with.
Tyahnybok himself was expelled from the Our Ukraine parliamentary faction in 2004 after giving a speech demanding that Ukrainians fight against a "Muscovite-Jewish mafia" (he later clarified this by saying that he actually had Jewish friends and was only against to "a group of Jewish oligarchs who control Ukraine and against Jewish-Bolsheviks [in the past]"). In 2005 he wrote open letters demanding Ukraine do more to halt "criminal activities" of "organized Jewry," and, even now, Svoboda openly calls for Ukrainian citizens to have their ethnicity printed onto their passports.
Tyahnybok is a prominent leader in the Ukrainian protests, so perhaps it was only right that McCain met with him as he did with the others (we reached out to McCain's office to find out how much he interacted with Tyahnybok, but have not heard back at the time of writing). You can defintely understand, however, why Jewish leaders in Ukraine and abroad are concerned about him.
It's actually from Northern Ireland! Everybody thinks the phrase came from the US during the cold war but it didn't.
According to lexicographer Ben Zimmer,[13] the term originated in Northern Ireland in the 1970s. Zimmer cites a 1974 letter by history teacher Sean O'Conaill which was published in The Irish Times where he complained about "the Whatabouts", people who defended the IRA by pointing out supposed wrongdoings of their enemy:
Their enemy in this case is the Black and Tans and the British Army and their supposed wrongdoings are the reprisal killings they committed against Irish civilians.
thanks, I'll ammend my jokes accordingly. Also nice to know that it was always a thought terminating cliche to defend state approved violence over the violence of the oppressed
Did you ever notice these Russian invasions of "sovereign" countries always occurs right on their borders and in the places where NATO is planning to establish a presence? I wonder if this had anything to do with safeguarding Russian sovereignty? I guess we'll never know. If only there was a historical record of what NATO did to Russia (and Ukraine) in the late 80s and the 90s.
I didn't. Re-read my comment; this was purely hypothetical.
As we all know, no one one won either of the World Wars. Being the bloodiest conflicts in history, they are furthest from the possibility of having a victor.
are you saying 1m people have died in the russian ukraine war??? thats 10x more than I'm seeing reported ANYWHERE what the fuck are you talking about. Its barely 10x more people than have been killed in palestine in the last month, are you deranged?
I thought keyboard warriors were those who put time and importance on the act of explaining and arguing online? I just told you to shut up and fuck off, loser
Nice try Ruzzian shill, but we true defenders of liberal democracy know that Nazis are the good guys now, and RUSSIA is like the Nazis, who weren't so bad really because they were fighting Russia, who is like the damn Nazis, who actually weren't so bad bec
A picture speaks a thousand words. So that must mean this picture speaks 1006 words.
I take your point though - I could be brainwashed by the propaganda. As could you. And we're both certain that we're not. Except my country actually has a free press, doesn't imprison detractors, and has released the verifiable evidence of war crimes being committed.
The west doesn't really need to do much propaganda - dropping bombs on cities, targeting civilian buildings and infrastructure, and launching a full scale invasion of a sovereign country speaks for itself.
Julian Assange, and when they don't imprison them they just straight up murder them like they did with Gary Webb
and has released the verifiable evidence of war crimes being committed
Like the incubator babies? Or maybe you mean Iraq's WMDs
The west doesn’t really need to do much propaganda
lol, lmao
dropping bombs on cities, targeting civilian buildings and infrastructure, and launching a full scale invasion of a sovereign country speaks for itself
Okay, what is this country that wouldn't imprison Julian Assange? I don't think it exists. I think you live in a country that would have imprisoned Assange and Edward Snowden.
The problem with your logic is that "they did it first, so we're going to do it second" leads to a never ending cycle of violence.
I'm not saying it didn't happen, or doesn't matter because it's the West, I'm just saying that "west bad" is a fucking shit reason to kill 1m people invading another country.
That an adult should be able to devote the attention span to read about something they pretend to care about, instead of demanding to be spoon-fed. That's what you're asking for, "can you break my food down for me first".
I'm capable of writing articles like these in practically no time at all. Instead of begrudging free information that's suppressed by our fucking government with propaganda, why don't you crack it open? But you'd rather be a child like every redditor and complain about being handed real solid gold.
Youtube — John McCain and Lindsay Graham tell neo nazis to cement the damage done by the 2014 coup and be their holy warriors against Russia https://youtube.com/watch?v=lMMvSiVkjfg
https://invidious.no-logs.com/watch?v=lMMvSiVkjfg YT mirror for convenience
They went and electrocuted babushkas through the kidneys. They build grandmas different in Donetsk so she kept on fighting. Online Ukraine supporters don't have it in them. I'm surprised you haven't moved back to trashing 🇻🇪 or something alteady considering things are going south. https://sputnikglobe.com/20230721/the-truth-about-ukrainian-war-crimes-against-donbass-civilians-1112031958.html
Before we begin wading through laborious examples of Ukrainian fake news, and their own deliberate terror bombing of civilians in Donetsk since they rebelled against the post-Maidan government, here's a forensic takedown of the Bucha lie by the same guy who did the article I linked about the Maidan.
A simple look at the way Israel operates reveals what terror bombing against urban areas, rather than attacks calculated to limit casualties to limit the international & domestic fallout of Russian intervention in Ukraine, actually looks like. And it resembles exactly how the Ukrainians have used precision missiles to attack concerts and homes and community centers. It's disgusting. The numbers speak for themselves, but thankfully we have enormous eyewitness accounts in Gaza and Donetsk of the horror. Western sources reported on it before we decided to go hard against Russia and it was reserved for people like Patrick Lancaster.
Is that what you call invading a sovereign country?
Yes? The April peace proposal was about NATO expansion and the separatist republics. Ukraine probably could have successfully countered with the federal Ukraine model proposed and agreed to in the Minsk agreements.
2022 was probably too late to agree to follow the Minsk agreements. If Ukraine wanted to do that it should have done so during the preceding eight years. At that point Russia was correct to push for disarmament and and maybe a DMZ.
The west appears to have exactly the same policy they have had the entire time also - and that is: leave the sovereign territory of the other nation, and there will be peace.
And when Russia points out its really conspicuous how this is a standard only ever applied to them?
Russia says its their territory, Ukraine says its there's. At this point there are literally only three options.
Recognize Russia claim, cede the land, end the war and ukraine can go forward with the territory they have now. (Maybe they can even think about allowing opposition political parties and elections at some point.)
Don't recognize Russia claim, keep doing whatbwere doing and, as the west loves to say "fight to the last ukrainian". Then there will be nobody left in Ukraine and Russia can take all of it (or Ukraine like, takes off weights and reveals it actually has more capacity to fight then they've been letting on for the whole counter offensive)
Other countries back Ukraines claim and get directly involved in fighting Russia in a hot war, putin, Xi, and Biden grt to fight over the nuclear ashes.
Which of those would you prefer, because the solution I keep seeing from liberals "Russia decides to stop for no apparent reason, gives up goes home and gives all the land back" is not actually a realistic or even feasible outcome.
So I really want to know, which of the three real world options would you prefer, and again "I wave a magic wand and Russia gives up and goes home" is not one of them.
More whataboutism. You can't use one atrocity to justify another, otherwise you're justifying them all. That would be atrocious.
Why have you ruled out 1 option yet didn't rule out Ukraine doing exactly what you're saying Russia can't do? Seems like you've been brainwashed.
I dont know what the answer is; but I do know that a million dead Russians and Ukrainians is an awful thing. I also know that Russia started the military action and could at any time return to its own territory and stop the dying. If Russia suddenly has some legitimate territorial claim then it should settle it through diplomacy, not with the blood of millions.
I also think it's up to Ukraine to choose what it does, and everyone should support that decision. Currently only the west seems to support it...and because Russia hasn't had its way its throwing its toys out the pram and trying to settle it with the blood of millions of innocents.
Just because you made up a new word for hypocrisyndoesnt mean you're not being a hypocrite.
Love that liberals somehow convinced themselves that by saying "you pointing out my hypocrisy absolved me" works on anybody but them.
I dont know what the answer is;
Yea we know, that's kind of the entire point of our argument is that you don't have any solutions other than literally Russia gets bored and goes home for absolutely no reason. It's also why we keep saying you aren't serious people who are even dealing with the realities of the situation.
but I do know that a million dead Russians and Ukrainians is an awful thing.
No you clearly don't because you get super pissed whenever somebody suggest you stop sending people to die for no reason.
I also know that Russia started the military action and could at any time return to its own territory and stop the dying
So literally right back to magically thinking again.
I know that if a super hot movie star started dating me that would be the end of my "not having a famous celebrity girlfriend" problem.
But the same question applies to both scenarios, why in a million years would that ever possibly happen.
So, once again, after trying to have a discussion about the actual realites of the situation liberals go with ignoring reality, saying it's bad when Russia does it but you can't point out we do it all the time, and the solution is for Russia to just give up on a war they're winning and cede territory they say is there's for LITERALLY NO REASON OTHER THAN MAKING DUMBSHIT HYPOCRITICAL LIBERALS MORE SMUG. A goal every ukraine flag emoji account I've ever seen is willing to sacrifice every single ukranina life to accomplish.
Whataboutism isn't absolution and I have nothing to be absolved of. I don't defend war mongering on behalf of any country. Unlike the replies in this thread.
Being against the Russian invasion of a sovereign nation does not make me a Liberal, I'm sorry that doesn't align with your narrative.
you get super pissed whenever somebody suggest you stop sending people to die for no reason
What's wrong with you? What makes you think I've sent anyone to die? For any reason? And got pissed about it?? Do you think I'm the Ukrainian president or something?
Russia gets bored and goes home for absolutely no reason
Yet another example of making shit up to fit your narrative. You could equally frame it as "Russia realises that invading another country is wrong and withdraws". Both as equally as unlikely as any of your suggestions. In all liklihood there will be some other solution that allows the main parties to save face and hopefully stops the killing. I'm sure you want people to stop dying too.
As for your last paragraph of barely cohesive babble - none of that is remotely accurate. I'm not a Liberal, I'm not as naive as some people to think I can suggest or predict a solution, I don't think you "can't" point out atrocities by the west - I'm just saying "but they did it first" is a shit reason to kill 1m people.
And why on earth would I need to choose one of your solutions to this monstrous invasion? My viewpoint is that the imperialists should go back to their own country and stop butchering civilians. I don't give a shit why they do it. I'd rather we got there yesterday and less people died...but if the only way to stop the aggressive and unjustified invasion is to drive them back militarily then I guess that's what has to be done. Because your options are shit.
Lmao ohh no one slight and obvious typo totally invalidates what I said.
I'm done reading these page long works of fiction. You need to chose one of my options because those are the only ones that there is a greater than 0% chance of happening.
Or you can keep screaming "Russia should abandon a two year long military campaign now that they're winning to appease whiny liberals"
As usual we'll be over here continuing to say "hey look it's exactly what we said was going to happen" while you tell us we don't know what we're talking about.
but if the only way to stop the aggressive and unjustified invasion is to drive them back militarily then I guess that's what has to be done.
So what you're saying is that you are a war mongering donkey brained lib but you're slightly embarrassed about it? Really you should be more embarrassed, you're pathetic
Good luck with that loser, your little nazi pals have already lost
Hasn't this been Russia's position the entire time? I've only ever seen them actively trying to have peace negotiations over the past decade, much to the chagrin and mockery of Ukraine and the West who declare it either SUBTERFUGE or WEAKNESS.
This headline in a western news outlet is, to me, more of an indicator to me that the West is now bored with this proxy war, wants to end it and is looking to save face.
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Ukraine isn't a sovereign country and hasn't been since the US couped their democratically elected leader. You can't be a sovereign country if a foreign country has veto power over your elections.
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lmao
Lmao. I stop reading there. That word automatically makes no longer care about someone's opinion
This makes no sense, first you stake your position against the invasion because "Ukraine is a sovereign country" and then you turn around and say it doesn't matter that it's not sovereign. Pick one and stick to it.
Read it again, that's not what I said.
yeah you said "which has problems of its own I’ll address later" but didn't address anything later, so instead i responded to what you said in that reply
The lib you're responding to is an idiot and wrong, but I think they are just doing a counterfactual there.
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The condition of the Ukrainian state is literally the crux of the entire conflict since 2014, what are you on about?
It does when that subverted state begins to suppress ethnic minorities and political opposition, your argument rests on willful ignorance of the conflict and the Ukrainian state's actions in Donbass and the genocidal threats it regularly issues to Crimeans who DO NOT AND HAVE NEVER considered themselves Ukrainian
Sorry bud, but intervening in a vicious civil war brought about by the violent overthrow of an actual democratically elected government, is not the same thing as unprovoked aggression for the sake of land grabs as claimed by historically brain-dead liberals
SMO is just a technical political title for the operation, Putin's rhetoric concerning Crimea and the separatist states has been quite clearly centered on unification, independence referendums and international recognition for their secession from Ukraine
Are you asserting in the whole two years of this war Putin has never mentioned the separatist republics?????
Whataboutism? What about deez nuts?
I'm not sure how correcting the term that you repeatedly used is "whataboutism". Surely you meant something when you wrote "sovereign country" multiple times? It's just inaccurate, it would be like referring to the US as a kingdom or referring to Washington D.C. as a country.
Modern countries don't like to call their wars a war for some reason. The "Special Military Operation" labeling in particular is based Ukraine labeling their war against the Donbas Republics as an "Anti-Terrorist Operation". Russia did state that one of their goals was the liberation of the Donbas Republics.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-says-first-phase-ukraine-operation-mostly-complete-focus-now-donbass-2022-03-25/
Russia is far worse at subverting countries than the US is. The US has massive experience in fomenting color revolutions in foreign countries, using NGOs to undermine foreign governments, and in supporting far-right movements within countries and using them to topple or put pressure on those hostile (to the US) governments. Russia did attempt to use diplomacy (for eight years) to stop Ukraine's bombing of civilians in Donbas but that didn't work out. Russia tried one last resort by diplomatically recognizing the Donbas Republics but that just caused Ukraine to start shelling the Donbas even harder.
All war is a crime and all wars come with war crimes. Some war crimes were committed by Russia, some were committed by Ukraine and then blamed on Russia, and some were pure atrocity propaganda that was just made up. The made up atrocity propaganda was so bad that the Ukrainian Rada (parliament) had to fire their commissioner for human rights. She was just spreading made-up atrocity propaganda and also wasn't bothering to organize the evacuation of civilians.
https://www.newsweek.com/lyudmila-denisova-ukraine-commissioner-human-rights-removed-russian-sexual-assault-claims-1711680
Here's an overview. Click the links to get details about the parts you're interested in.
https://www.wsws.org/en/topics/event/2014-coup-ukraine
The short version is that the National Endowment for Democracy (a CIA cut-out) has openly spent over $5 Billion dollars to "promote democracy" in Ukraine. Do you remember how much the US freaked out over Prigozhin (Wagner guy) spending a hundred thousand dollars in order to "promote democracy" in the US? John McCain and Victoria Nuland openly met with the protestors and announced their full support and the backing of the US. Nuland had a leaked phone call where she was hand-selecting the new leader of Ukraine. The new Ukrainian Finance Minister become a Ukrainian citizen the very same day she was sworn in as Finance Minister.
As a bonus. Here's one of the guys that McCain met with.
https://www.businessinsider.com/john-mccain-meets-oleh-tyahnybok-in-ukraine-2013-12
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Read it now coward
It's been 40 minutes, please respnd
True. Actual whataboutism is only from the Whatabout region of France
It's actually from Northern Ireland! Everybody thinks the phrase came from the US during the cold war but it didn't.
Their enemy in this case is the Black and Tans and the British Army and their supposed wrongdoings are the reprisal killings they committed against Irish civilians.
Did you ever notice these Russian invasions of "sovereign" countries always occurs right on their borders and in the places where NATO is planning to establish a presence? I wonder if this had anything to do with safeguarding Russian sovereignty? I guess we'll never know. If only there was a historical record of what NATO did to Russia (and Ukraine) in the late 80s and the 90s.
Or you could just show us your dick.
Shut the fuck up you historically illiterate rube
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Quick questuon, who's winning the war?
What's that got to do with it?
I need to gauge your level of connection to material reality so I don't waste my time talking to a Blue MAGA cultist
Fair. I don't think anyone is winning the war.
Dead tied, huh? Total standstill? I wonder if the available evidence supports this conclusion.
Because if it didn't, we might have to conclude that you're either propagandized to the point of delusion, or being dishonest.
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"Actually, the allies also lost world war 2 because millions died."
do you think you'd have the same opinion if the casualty numbers were the same but ukraine managed to take back land to the 1991 borders?
I didn't. Re-read my comment; this was purely hypothetical.
As we all know, no one one won either of the World Wars. Being the bloodiest conflicts in history, they are furthest from the possibility of having a victor.
are you saying 1m people have died in the russian ukraine war??? thats 10x more than I'm seeing reported ANYWHERE what the fuck are you talking about. Its barely 10x more people than have been killed in palestine in the last month, are you deranged?
Depending on the estimate, about 2.5 million people died in the Vietnam War, but Vietnam definitely still won.
I thought keyboard warriors were those who put time and importance on the act of explaining and arguing online? I just told you to shut up and fuck off, loser
Nice try Ruzzian shill, but we true defenders of liberal democracy know that Nazis are the good guys now, and RUSSIA is like the Nazis, who weren't so bad really because they were fighting Russia, who is like the damn Nazis, who actually weren't so bad bec
You're supposed to do a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus so you don't get stuck in simple loops.
A picture speaks a thousand words. So that must mean this picture speaks 1006 words.
I take your point though - I could be brainwashed by the propaganda. As could you. And we're both certain that we're not. Except my country actually has a free press, doesn't imprison detractors, and has released the verifiable evidence of war crimes being committed.
The west doesn't really need to do much propaganda - dropping bombs on cities, targeting civilian buildings and infrastructure, and launching a full scale invasion of a sovereign country speaks for itself.
I think you should take a look at your own post.
6 companies control all media in America
Julian Assange, and when they don't imprison them they just straight up murder them like they did with Gary Webb
Like the incubator babies? Or maybe you mean Iraq's WMDs
lol, lmao
"The West" does all of this
Whataboutism, incorrect, and childish. Why on earth did you bother with this reply?
Whataboutism? What about deez nuts?
You claimed the West has free press and doesn't imprison detractors, I gave you 3 examples of how this is not true, how is this "whataboutism"?
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Don’t be fucking coy. Name “your country”.
Do you? Click this link to find out: https://rt.com
It's blocked in the European Union, so a lot of people in "The West" do not have access to it.
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Okay, what is this country that wouldn't imprison Julian Assange? I don't think it exists. I think you live in a country that would have imprisoned Assange and Edward Snowden.
Which would make you a hypocrite.
Whataboutism was originally used to defend Jim Crow any time the Soviet Union brought up how
is an apartheid state
Whataboutism is an inherently thought terminating idea, to not be able to compare two similar things is downright anti human
No it may be worse than that, even insects can compare two things
Says a lot more about you that you even use that as an argument
This will never stop being funny.
The problem with your logic is that "they did it first, so we're going to do it second" leads to a never ending cycle of violence.
I'm not saying it didn't happen, or doesn't matter because it's the West, I'm just saying that "west bad" is a fucking shit reason to kill 1m people invading another country.
If you shouldn't respond to bad faith with bad faith, what is the solution?
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No, I'm asking you for a solution to what you called a "problem with our logic".
If you shouldn't respond to bad faith with bad faith, what should you do?
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/15/all-lies-how-the-us-military-covered-up-gunning-down-two-journalists-in-iraq
Too many replies in this thread to read the article. Could you just summarise your point and I'll read it if I don't believe you?
Are you expecting people to take you seriously when you can't read a few dozen pages? Aren't you an adult?
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That an adult should be able to devote the attention span to read about something they pretend to care about, instead of demanding to be spoon-fed. That's what you're asking for, "can you break my food down for me first".
I'm capable of writing articles like these in practically no time at all. Instead of begrudging free information that's suppressed by our fucking government with propaganda, why don't you crack it open? But you'd rather be a child like every redditor and complain about being handed real solid gold.
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Hey look, the guy who's pretending to know shit and refusing to read what people reply with is talking about wasting people's time!
The essence of modern liberalism
Youtube — John McCain and Lindsay Graham tell neo nazis to cement the damage done by the 2014 coup and be their holy warriors against Russia https://youtube.com/watch?v=lMMvSiVkjfg
https://invidious.no-logs.com/watch?v=lMMvSiVkjfg YT mirror for convenience
They went and electrocuted babushkas through the kidneys. They build grandmas different in Donetsk so she kept on fighting. Online Ukraine supporters don't have it in them. I'm surprised you haven't moved back to trashing 🇻🇪 or something alteady considering things are going south. https://sputnikglobe.com/20230721/the-truth-about-ukrainian-war-crimes-against-donbass-civilians-1112031958.html
https://thegrayzone.com/2023/12/11/ukrainian-maidan-massacre-false-flag/
https://covertactionmagazine.com/2023/07/17/the-lord-of-the-underworld-meet-the-paratrooper-from-north-carolina-who-orchestrated-the-war-in-ukraine/
https://covertactionmagazine.com/2023/02/03/how-a-network-of-nazi-propagandists-helped-lay-the-groundwork-for-the-war-in-ukraine/
https://mronline.org/2022/06/13/how-monsters-who-beat-jews-to-death-in-1944-became-americas-favorite-freedom-fighters-in-1945/
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
Before we begin wading through laborious examples of Ukrainian fake news, and their own deliberate terror bombing of civilians in Donetsk since they rebelled against the post-Maidan government, here's a forensic takedown of the Bucha lie by the same guy who did the article I linked about the Maidan.
https://covertactionmagazine.com/2022/04/06/was-alleged-russian-army-massacre-of-civilians-at-bucha-actually-a-false-flag-event-staged-by-ukrainian-nazis/
A simple look at the way Israel operates reveals what terror bombing against urban areas, rather than attacks calculated to limit casualties to limit the international & domestic fallout of Russian intervention in Ukraine, actually looks like. And it resembles exactly how the Ukrainians have used precision missiles to attack concerts and homes and community centers. It's disgusting. The numbers speak for themselves, but thankfully we have enormous eyewitness accounts in Gaza and Donetsk of the horror. Western sources reported on it before we decided to go hard against Russia and it was reserved for people like Patrick Lancaster.
Yes? The April peace proposal was about NATO expansion and the separatist republics. Ukraine probably could have successfully countered with the federal Ukraine model proposed and agreed to in the Minsk agreements.
2022 was probably too late to agree to follow the Minsk agreements. If Ukraine wanted to do that it should have done so during the preceding eight years. At that point Russia was correct to push for disarmament and and maybe a DMZ.
And when Russia points out its really conspicuous how this is a standard only ever applied to them?
Russia says its their territory, Ukraine says its there's. At this point there are literally only three options.
Recognize Russia claim, cede the land, end the war and ukraine can go forward with the territory they have now. (Maybe they can even think about allowing opposition political parties and elections at some point.)
Don't recognize Russia claim, keep doing whatbwere doing and, as the west loves to say "fight to the last ukrainian". Then there will be nobody left in Ukraine and Russia can take all of it (or Ukraine like, takes off weights and reveals it actually has more capacity to fight then they've been letting on for the whole counter offensive)
Other countries back Ukraines claim and get directly involved in fighting Russia in a hot war, putin, Xi, and Biden grt to fight over the nuclear ashes.
Which of those would you prefer, because the solution I keep seeing from liberals "Russia decides to stop for no apparent reason, gives up goes home and gives all the land back" is not actually a realistic or even feasible outcome.
So I really want to know, which of the three real world options would you prefer, and again "I wave a magic wand and Russia gives up and goes home" is not one of them.
More whataboutism. You can't use one atrocity to justify another, otherwise you're justifying them all. That would be atrocious.
Why have you ruled out 1 option yet didn't rule out Ukraine doing exactly what you're saying Russia can't do? Seems like you've been brainwashed.
I dont know what the answer is; but I do know that a million dead Russians and Ukrainians is an awful thing. I also know that Russia started the military action and could at any time return to its own territory and stop the dying. If Russia suddenly has some legitimate territorial claim then it should settle it through diplomacy, not with the blood of millions.
I also think it's up to Ukraine to choose what it does, and everyone should support that decision. Currently only the west seems to support it...and because Russia hasn't had its way its throwing its toys out the pram and trying to settle it with the blood of millions of innocents.
Just because you made up a new word for hypocrisyndoesnt mean you're not being a hypocrite.
Love that liberals somehow convinced themselves that by saying "you pointing out my hypocrisy absolved me" works on anybody but them.
Yea we know, that's kind of the entire point of our argument is that you don't have any solutions other than literally Russia gets bored and goes home for absolutely no reason. It's also why we keep saying you aren't serious people who are even dealing with the realities of the situation.
No you clearly don't because you get super pissed whenever somebody suggest you stop sending people to die for no reason.
So literally right back to magically thinking again.
I know that if a super hot movie star started dating me that would be the end of my "not having a famous celebrity girlfriend" problem.
But the same question applies to both scenarios, why in a million years would that ever possibly happen.
So, once again, after trying to have a discussion about the actual realites of the situation liberals go with ignoring reality, saying it's bad when Russia does it but you can't point out we do it all the time, and the solution is for Russia to just give up on a war they're winning and cede territory they say is there's for LITERALLY NO REASON OTHER THAN MAKING DUMBSHIT HYPOCRITICAL LIBERALS MORE SMUG. A goal every ukraine flag emoji account I've ever seen is willing to sacrifice every single ukranina life to accomplish.
Speaking of new words.
Whataboutism isn't absolution and I have nothing to be absolved of. I don't defend war mongering on behalf of any country. Unlike the replies in this thread.
Being against the Russian invasion of a sovereign nation does not make me a Liberal, I'm sorry that doesn't align with your narrative.
What's wrong with you? What makes you think I've sent anyone to die? For any reason? And got pissed about it?? Do you think I'm the Ukrainian president or something?
Yet another example of making shit up to fit your narrative. You could equally frame it as "Russia realises that invading another country is wrong and withdraws". Both as equally as unlikely as any of your suggestions. In all liklihood there will be some other solution that allows the main parties to save face and hopefully stops the killing. I'm sure you want people to stop dying too.
As for your last paragraph of barely cohesive babble - none of that is remotely accurate. I'm not a Liberal, I'm not as naive as some people to think I can suggest or predict a solution, I don't think you "can't" point out atrocities by the west - I'm just saying "but they did it first" is a shit reason to kill 1m people.
And why on earth would I need to choose one of your solutions to this monstrous invasion? My viewpoint is that the imperialists should go back to their own country and stop butchering civilians. I don't give a shit why they do it. I'd rather we got there yesterday and less people died...but if the only way to stop the aggressive and unjustified invasion is to drive them back militarily then I guess that's what has to be done. Because your options are shit.
Lmao ohh no one slight and obvious typo totally invalidates what I said.
I'm done reading these page long works of fiction. You need to chose one of my options because those are the only ones that there is a greater than 0% chance of happening.
Or you can keep screaming "Russia should abandon a two year long military campaign now that they're winning to appease whiny liberals"
As usual we'll be over here continuing to say "hey look it's exactly what we said was going to happen" while you tell us we don't know what we're talking about.
So what you're saying is that you are a war mongering donkey brained lib but you're slightly embarrassed about it? Really you should be more embarrassed, you're pathetic
Good luck with that loser, your little nazi pals have already lost
This you bro?
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Go back to reddit dork
You think there's still a chance for
to win anything, you aren't a serious person and don't deserve more than my worst
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smh making puns at a time like this...
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It's very obviously a pun. The only question is if it was intentional.
Shut the fuck up NATO pig you fucking babykiller