Genzedong is so fucking cringe. Like, I enjoy them when they dunk on chuds and stuff. But they're so openly biased and critical of anyone with a different theory or view on anti-capitalism, leftist, and socialism that it just gets irritating. I'm glad this place (which I'm sure has a lot of genzedong users) is still vehemently pro left-unity (despite having a much bigger "ML" base).
I use genzedong often, occasionally you get takes like these which reach as far as possible just to own anarchists. There's decent critiques you could make of anarchism but going this far is too much for the small amount of people this would successfully troll.
Yeah, it seems kinda exhausting letting anything this insignificance live rent free. I just can't care about that stuff myself, it really has no effect on me or around me
There was, this site seems to have largely scared off most anarchists and normie-er socialists and socdems, but the CTH sub was very good as a left-unity subreddit.
I enjoyed going around all the lefty subs on Reddit while on my political journey. Without fail there were people on anarchist subs shitting on CTH for being full of tankies, and MLs on communist subs shitting on CTH for being full of anarkiddies. Truly a shame to see it go :07:
There are still plenty of anarchists here, and I don't know if they ever were a much larger fraction.
just reproducing the failures of the original communist subreddits lol
Genzedong is so fucking cringe. Like, I enjoy them when they dunk on chuds and stuff. But they’re so openly biased and critical of anyone with a different theory or view on anti-capitalism, leftist, and socialism that it just gets irritating. I’m glad this place (which I’m sure has a lot of genzedong users) is still vehemently pro left-unity (despite having a much bigger “ML” base).
Clearly you haven't been called a trot here once a week because you linked an article that has one negative sentence about China in it.
If you don't want to be "called a trot", don't link trot articles that uncritically repeat Uyghur Genocide propaganda.
I was going to post "no problem Mr. Zenz", but instead I've decided to be sincere.
I recently posted a critical comment on one of your article posts. I cited specific sections which were repating Zenz's claims. Your response was to say that meant the article was good. Now you complain here about "being called a trot".
If you want to piss people on this forum off, that's fine and it's your right. But maybe find a different way to do it than repeating literal, actual CIA propaganda.
Yes, that article was 98% shitting on the US and how they fucked up in Afghanistan and only partially mentioned China. And sorry that i replied that but i'm kinda tired arguing about it all the time, since it's years and i'm not at all convinced still that what is going on in China is "voluntary vocational courses" or what they call it.
BTW i'm not even trying to piss anyone off, i dump articles here i want to read later, so of course there will be shit among them, you're absolutely right to call those out, but they don't necessarily mirror my views.
Fair enough, my response was pretty keyed up too. I'm pretty touchy on the propaganda thing because it bothers me to see leftists (those who write the articles, I mean) repeating the CIA points.
I do think there's a discussion to be had on the precise methods of China's de-radicalization programs and such, and it's unfortunate the propaganda muddies the water so much and makes that harder. Hope you have a good day!
This is a very unfair comment considering 90% of the content """""""critical""""""" of China you are likely to find is just bullshit US propaganda talking points, specialy in 2020 during the Zens media blitz.
When you are actually dealing with content that somehow manages to not do that then you have other problems like why western "leftists" opinions should matter at all when we can't affect anything and many of these opinions could be direct contradictions to what the actual Chinese people want and believe in and worst of all the west is completely incapable of moving towards socialism anyway. We can't fix our problems, we are not even trying and fighting, in fact we faced nothing but defeat over and over.
To me any content critical of China needs to clear a very high bar so that I don't immediately die from hypocrisy overdose or something.
What i consider unfair is handwaving 90% of legit criticism of China as "bullshit US propaganda" even if it clearly distances itself from Zenz and the likes and comes from communists from the philippines for example.
But this isn't about China btw, any AES or "AES" is lifted on a pedestal here and most criticism is called out as bullshit/western propaganda/whatever as a kneejerk reaction.
What i consider unfair is handwaving 90% of legit criticism of China as “bullshit US propaganda” even if it clearly distances itself from Zenz and the likes and comes from communists from the philippines for example.
I am mostly pointing out you can consider it "legit" if you want, just don't get mad if 90% of the community and other MLs don't and there is reason for it.
most criticism is called out as bullshit/western propaganda/whatever as a kneejerk reaction.
I'd just say show me the lies because I can certainly point how most of the criticism if filled with them.
As for whatever leftists in the Philippines are saying I'll say I don't know what their criticism are, however I'll give the example of that random Indian communist article that made rounds around here.
Heck even the OP was making the same point as you showing that they were given that article as "proof" of legitimate criticism. In that example that was absolutely shit repackaging US talking points by removing Zens and it doesn't make it legitimate at all, in fact that article made a huge leap in moral and logical reasoning i.e China's bad because I say so and those Muslim countries that support it are also bad/wrong too because I say so.
It is possible for third world organizations to say shit too, nobody is perfect. Just look at how Latin America is filled with trot parties constantly complaining about "Stalinism", their pejorative term for ML/authoritarianism, and yet they are constantly failing to achieve anything. Just look at some Brazilian orgs(PCO).
I am mostly pointing out you can consider it “legit” if you want, just don’t get mad if 90% of the community and other MLs don’t and there is reason for it.
I'm not getting mad (yet i reply lol), i'm just pointing out that this space also has some way to achieve left unity. Last year i was being called an anarkiddie for the same takes and now a trot, i guess it's progress?
Heck even the OP was making the same point as you showing that they were given that article as “proof” of legitimate criticism. In that example that was absolutely shit repackaging US talking points by removing Zens and it doesn’t make it legitimate at all, in fact that article made a huge leap in moral and logical reasoning i.e China’s bad because I say so and those Muslim countries that support it are also bad/wrong too because I say so.
I'm really really curious about what you guys would consider to be a legitimate criticism of what China does in Xinjiang, because after the linked thread and the constant struggle sessions about the issue makes me think the answer is "none."
How do I achieve being called a trot :trot-shining:
I need to up chuang posting
I don't think i ever posted Chuang here. Lausan is better anyway.
GenZedong has sent a silly letter. Why are you printing it and replying to it?
Seriously, often that sub is really good, but the user-base tends to be very young. What do you expect?
Why are you printing it and replying to it?
We must never stop explaining :sankara-shining:
Fair
I seriously think the OP in GZ is just acting on a childish impulse to bash everyone not on the same "team" as him though. It's unprincipled criticism and happens fairly often on GZ, and I do think the relatively low age of much of the membership is a large factor.
bash everyone not on the same “team” as him
PKK is not even anarchist lol. IIRC they're ML
They were ML a long time ago. I believe they're democratic confederalists now.
Yeah, I don't want another struggle session, but the DFNS is super based despite making the critical error of taking US support, All MLs and related tendencies should offer critical support (sorry Hakim), and I hope they have an amicable rapprochement with the Syrian Government and they own the Turkish Chuds.
Like, if there's an actual leftist project controlling territory and it's doing well and not wrecking other leftists in the area, support them if they aren't literally Pol Pot. Critique, yes, but support.
It's not that hard, you don't need to study Hegel for a decade to follow this rule of thumb.
Also I find it weird to call western volunteers, who presumably to an extent believe in the project, "white saviors". What difference is there between volunteering in Rojava versus volunteering during the Spanish Civil War?
They've seen Dances with Wolves so now they can't differentiate between mighty-whitey and genuine support of others.
Also a few MLMs have this weird anti-solidarity idea that takes a really good idea set (Focus on local material conditions before global stuff, Third World movements are of prime importance) and runs to absurdity (If you're focusing on anything but local stuff you're ruining the revolution. Only Third Worldism has any effect and you can't help in the 1st world.)
In both cases, it's abstracting from material circumstances into :zizek-preference:
I've run into so much of this.
I think the left as a whole needs to realize that a lot of our ideological differences are driven by people choosing ideologies that actually give them something actionable within their material conditions. The comfortable won't go off and start a people's war. The jobless won't unionize. Nobody wants to be led by an ML party with five members. It's harder to care about smashing the state if you live in an AES.
I think that a certain strain of third worldism is just a way for westerners to cope with doing fuck all to help any movement towards socialism other than post about how great China is to people who already agree with them.
The only possible thing I can think about is the difference between the composition of volunteers to both projects. Volunteers to the Spanish Republic commonly came from the organized Left where it was primarily parties of the COMINTERN would hold volunteer drives, fundraising events, anti-nationalist protests, etc. An example of this would be the Abraham Lincoln Brigade.
Whereas the volunteers to the Rojava Autonomous region are composed of the unorganized (or shattered) Left where it's primarily individuals that're volunteering, sending their own funds, and so forth.
I wouldn't really call it a critique since I don't really see it as one, but as an other observation of the status of the western left.
Genzedong user reading even a slightest crumb of theory challenge (IMPOSSIBLE!)
No guys you don't understand socialism is when decollectivise agriculture
This guys getting Syrian War factions confused then throwing some buzzwords around hoping someone will get offended lol. r/GenZedong should be more worried about FSG agents than Syrian anarchists :grillman:
"The past couple years anarchists have been quite silent about Rojava."
Literally it's all i hear in anarchist circles
The enemy of my enemy that was armed by the first enemy and radicalized through the first enemy's wars of aggression is my temporary friend if the second enemy is reactionary fundamentalists trying to seize power and territory through brutal repression.
Yah know like half the people here probs agree with this
Nope.
Idk why we just suddenly stopped having Rojava struggle sessions
IMO, having "struggle sessions" about people who're fighting for their lives is a very unpoggers thing to do. Information about Rojava has certainly disappeared from Western news sources but I don't doubt that they're still there fighting for their freedom.
Idk why we just suddenly stopped having Rojava struggle sessions
Didn't Rojava end up joining with Syria again following the US abandoning them to Turkey's genocidal ambitions? Like anti-Rojava talking points have always seemed like sheer contrarianism considering that they're fighting against a NATO member (Turkey), jihadists originally armed and organized by the CIA, and jihadists armed and supported by Turkey, and literally every regional left wing party is pro-Rojava and actively fights for them.
They were forced by US actions to do so tho. GZD post is garbage but tThe critiques against them in the past is the simple truth that there is and was scenario where the secular Syrian Government can become stable economicaly and geopoliticaly with US prolonging their occupation in the erea since its very presence and action there is for it to not happen. Prollonging the current situation means misery and suffering for millions of syrian citizens with no future where they will have a full belly and a safe ans stable life. So it wasnt a fear. It was a reality that negatively impacted millions of Syrians.
What some people disagreed with and were branded as tankies is that you should support Rojava even if it is a project that exists and was able to exist only through US presence ,control and opperations there (which means and meant what i described above) and the narrative in the western left at thet time that they HAD TO ALLY WITH THE US and that there WAS NO CHOICE and THAT ASSAD AND TURKS WOULD SLAUGHTER THEM OTHERWISE and as a result US presence is the lesser evil for them and should be prolonged
Balkanizing third world states serves US imperialism. The idea that Rojava had no other choice but to side with US imperialism is just another way of saying that communists should not have supported it or really give it any undue attention. Rojava is no different from the micro-orgs that happen hundreds of times during periods of Civil War and they are just as forgettable. The reason why people cared so much about Rojava was beause it had a populist character and we could displace our own alienation and imagine a good world in the middle east compared to the bigotry of ISIS. Rojava was never socialist but bourgeoise, thus communist do not have a dog in the fight except to oppose our own imperialism (and this means opposing and investigating why the US cares about Rojava)
The gzd post itself is dumb af and inaccurate and is just somehow trying to connect it to anarchism do dunk on it which is lame. But i lean towards against supporting Rojava as a project existing and being able to only exist through US military and geopolitical presence on Syria and the general erea (US basicaly got what it want from the erea without much pushback, be it military bases, oil field management, base of opperations for anti-iran and anti-assad opperations)
Thats cause more inocent people have died , displaced and have had their lives ruined by US presence and influence in Syria that they wouldnt have otherwise than the entire population of Rojava. Probably many times over. Hundreds of thousands of Syrian civilians have food insecurity and lack of heating because large part of the country’s breadbasket and oil fields are now unaccecible and under US sphere of influence through rojava.
There is effectively no scenario where the secular Syrian Government can become stable economicaly and geopoliticaly with US prolonging their occupation in the erea since its very presence and action there is for it to not happen. Prollonging the current situation means misery and suffering for millions of syrian citizens with no future where they will have a full belly and a safe ans stable life. And on the other side its not a question between Kurds getting slaughtered or existing under active US presence and protection. Without US occupation of the erea the Kurds will be forced to strike ,a long lasting now, deal with the Syrian state and governent to avoid getting completely genocided by the Turks and continue with some very limited regional autonomy . Syria if stable and without US meddling wouldnt let Turkey invade attack and cause such death and mayhem inside their borders and neither would kurds be genocided by Turks inside Syrias borders. Turkey wouldnt have been able to make any of its moves on the syrian Kurds and grounds without US presence and interfeerence and occupation. We saw that even with Syria as it is now since the Syrian Army was the one that kicked the Turks back last year and averted an even bigger massacre and tragedy for the Kurds who they themselves were forced to ally with Assad because of a situation thet the US put them in in the first place. So in absence of US presense the Syrian state will neither genocide nor try to completely assimilate Rojava since that would mean again exasterbating the situation into an utterly chaotic and violent civil war, becoming even weaker against the islamic oposition groups and destroying/fragmating their country.Its easy to see that they wont do that from the offers that they made. The thing Kurds lost and would lose is a big degree of regional autonomy that in many ways never had cause they never could say no to any of the US requests and decisions about what will happen in their erea
Actualy what i descirbed its whats slowly happening in the last year plus with increasing Syrian State-Rojava talks and reapproachment and diminishing US presence. So this is applies to me not really supporting them as a project existing under and only through US presence and against the mainstream in the left narrative that it HAD TO and that there WAS NO CHOICE and THAT ASSAD AND TURKS WOULD SLAUGHTER THEM OTHERWISE and so US presence is the lesser evil for them . Im happy to support the form it takes without US presence even if it is less politicaly and economicaly "autonomous"
The Americans is the greatest opressors in the erea by an insane degree, and anything else that comes close (isis) is basicaly a result of their presence and interference. People that became downtrodden by the american empire and resist against its opressive presence and occupation are both the majority comperatively to the Kurds and the group that takes precedent regarding my supporth (as long as they arent straight up islamic foundementalists) and supporting them means the complete removal of US from the region means that Rojava as a project will just lose its percieved "autonomy" and be set back massively.
if you stand with those that perpetrated, benefited and perpetuated genocide you are an enemy of mine. stand with the victims who are afraid. who are speaking up but none hears. like it or not, the bath party is the only guarantor of vulnerable minorities in syria. :assad-must-stay:
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go to the rojava recruitment pages. its a very strickt program of learning kurdish language and ideologies
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they have done some ethnic cleansing of arabs. they are also hated by the assyrians because they genocided them last century. also that assyrian political body that supposedly supports rojava is a puppet that is totally denounced by assyrians.
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the fucking polity is called the west. like, they want to balkanize iran. its telegraphed a fucking universe away. they claim they just wanted federated neighbouring territories but thats clearly just a first step.
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the whole idea of mass persecution of kurds in syria is disingenuous. like they werent actively stripped of citizenship, its just that the state never got do do a real census and clear up after all the kurds migrated in there. fixing that was also part of assads platform. it was also proposed to drop arab from the country name. etc.
beating teachers for not complying with anarchist curriculum how not authoritarian
https://www.joshualandis.com/blog/romancing-rojava-rhetoric-vs-reality/
http://www.aina.org/reports/ace201701.pdf
https://linestruggle.medium.com/on-rojava-and-the-western-left-bac1b858173e
fawning over rojava larpers is so perversely fucking pathetic im galled
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Kurdish-Arab-Armenian-Turkomen-Circassian ethnonationalism. Definitely a thing.
I knew I was forgetting one. One that's not part of the long tail, that is.
