We have the biggest discourse! Big beautiful discourse, very handsome discourse :trump-anguish:
:tromp: Folks we have very smart, very intelligent discourse. People come to me and they say, the discourse, it's incredible, very thought provoking, very good.
:a-little-trolling: The fake news media, they come up to me, they ask me "mr President, what do you think of beans". I tell them, beans are no good, I tell them the world is laughing at us for putting beans in our chilly, believe me! But the fake news, the fake news tell people that people like beans in chili!! These are bad people folks, very very bad.
:thicc-trump: Folks, believe me, the beans are what give me such a big dump truck of an ass. The fake news media doesn’t want you to know this, because all the big and very large bean companies want to sell their beans to Chyna, instead of here, to the good American bean eaters. They smuggle the beans out of the country in beanie babies, that’s why they’re so expensive, believe me I’ve invested in many beanie babies.
Isn't this several layers of miscommunication because some apparatus of the Chinese media has tried to curtail kpop style idol culture? And it ended up being a little mismanaged or misguided, but then western media got a hold of it and deliberated misrepresented the situation to Chinese media banned any sort of feminine guys?
Do I have that right? I just wanna know, please don't yell at me.
There was some misrepresentation, but there's also clearly an element of reactionary policy. The CPC has a pretty big faction with, let's say "boomer mentality", and this does seem to affect their media policies especially.
If you want decent analysis of it, I recommend Sixth Tone, which is actually a party publication but is very critical on many issues.
If you’ve got a link to any sixth tone articles about this, that would be helpful. I’d like to read up on where things are at now.
https://www.sixthtone.com/news/1008389/chinas-ongoing-struggle-against-sissy-young-men
Here's a short article that argues there are reactionary motivations to the "sissy" thing. The whole website is good, and worth digging through. They have a tag for "gender" specifically, but there's a lot of interesting but critical coverage of a lot of things in there.
Dope, thanks. It looks like the “sissy” aspect has also been tied in with the skin bleaching trend they were trying to counter because of how linked the two are. Unfortunate.
there’s also clearly an element of reactionary policy
-
Private sector setting insane beauty standards that can only be achieved through extensive cosmetic procedures and then dictating success in mainstream media by how tightly you comply
-
Public policy regulation established to reverse this trend, because your committee recognizes it as socially toxic and alienating. But you're employing a gendered term to describe it
Both of these things are reactionary. Both sides. Both!!!!
Yes, they're both reactionary to a degree. The policy could and should be adjusted to avoid causing harm to people whose gender expression doesn't fit into a clear binary.
Additionally, this isn't the first time media censors in China have clamped down harder on LGBT-related media than other media. There is a current in the party with reactionary ideas with respect to gender, and it's important to recognize that.
With respect to online multimedia, see below.
China's multimedia censorship programs do have and have had problems surrounding LGBT issues, which is unfortunate and hopefully will change.
The policy could and should be adjusted to avoid causing harm to people whose gender expression doesn’t fit into a clear binary.
It is. The habit of forcing media personalities to undergo surgery and "look white" in order to climb the media ladder is harming people who fail to fit that model.
Additionally, this isn’t the first time media censors in China have clamped down harder on LGBT-related media than other media.
When femininity is deliberately coded as white and western by Hong Kong based media syndicates and advertisers, the effort to decouple and de-capitalize an industry that's built on injecting crass consumerism into every facet of local life.
China’s multimedia censorship programs do have and have had problems surrounding LGBT issues
Other banned content includes prolonged or provocative kissing scenes and the defamation of national heroes.
This is definitely prudish, but a far cry from reactionary. It appears as though the effort is focused primarily on preserving the character of post-revolutionary Chinese society and defending against foreign efforts to interject subversive attitudes into public media. Indeed...
Yet censorship is a persistent problem. In 2015, Fan sued SAPPRFT over whether the administration had issued a notice instructing web platforms to ban his documentary, “Mama Rainbow,” from online streaming. The court ruled that SAPPRFT had not sent such a directive.
Statements like this suggest the reactionary attitudes are likely a consequence of privately run online services censoring content due to the views of the administrators. A chud run movie theater in the States might refuse to screen Brokeback Mountain or Clear Channel might pull Dixie Chicks off the airwaves because she spoke ill of the President. That isn't indicative of a state party problem, but a systemic cultural bias that needs to be confronted by the next generation of media users and producers.
Founded on August 19, 2011, it now has more than 600 members, including online media giants and video platforms such as Tencent, Sohu, and Youku, as well as the websites of state-owned media outlets like news agency Xinhua and Party newspaper People’s Daily.
So the online party publications also abide by rules preventing screening on LGBT relationships. I'm not sure why you're referring to the other banned content, that obviously has nothing to do with this.
Movies with LGBT themes (such as Brokeback Mountain) actually often don't get widespread theater screenings in China. This has also been touched on in Sixth Tone.
There is, of course, a systemic cultural bias, which is why the party also has a reactionary current within it with respect to this. They're not getting the members out of nowhere.
Two things can be true at once - the party is trying to limit foreign influence with their censorship. It is also, unfortunately, limiting the expression of LGBT issues. The CPC isn't perfect, of course, and this is one of the things they do have problems with. Their own publication frequently criticizes them for it.
The rights of LGBT people have been improving in China, and it's likely to continue that way, but it's important to acknowledge where there are shortcomings.
-
Yeah, it was a layer of misrepresentation. It’s part of a push by the chinese government to curtail racist western beauty standards like skin bleaching and “double eyelid” cosmetic surgery to look more white. That shit has caught on huge in American-occupied South Korea (wonder why) and is attached to a lot of Kpop.
If I remember correctly, the policy was focused on requiring wider representation of gender expression in male actors besides the KPop style guys. Many actors were starting to feel pressured into skin bleaching and getting cosmetic surgery on their eyes to get work in the industry and also appeal to their fans, the majority of whom are straight women.
The party brief discussing this used a slang word in quotations as an example which doesn’t translate correctly when you throw it into google translate. I think it translated to “sissy”, which apparently wasn’t a very accurate translation. Still, that word choice also rightfully got shit in China because it is a word used by reactionary conservative boomers. This added to the confusion once the story made it over here.
This was from when the first wave of “China is banning le fembois” talking points showed up. I checked out after I saw that there was this degree of ambiguity to it because:
-
- I don’t live in China
-
- I don’t speak Mandarin
-
- Our entire media apparatus is actively trying to find every angle it can to build support for a cold/hot war with China.
This then got complicated even further online because a chunk of stupidpol motherfuckers started concern trolling / stanning for China in support of them banning “sissy boys”. That then poisoned the well if you pushed back on the articles claiming this stuff.
I’m sure there’s other shit and maybe more info has come out since then. China legitimately does still have a lot of issues it needs to work on with LGBTQIA rights. This struck me as noise that got in the way of being able to actually discuss those problems.
-
I'm gonna be honest with you, I have no idea who is correct in this argument. Just admired the high quality discourse it sparked lol.
From a bit of Sixthtone articles I read it looks like younger people are wayy more progressive in regards to LGBTQ+ rights. Im sure things will improve when older generation starts dying off
Havent things gotten better for the LGBTQ+ community since the 80s though?
Extremely better. People forget about the reagan admin intentionally ignored the AIDS crisis. People forget about gay panic laws. It's still terrible but not nearly as bad as it once was.
More recently, people seem to have forgotten that nationally legal gay marriage seemed inconceivable in 2003, to the point that many gay activists were arguing for civil unions because it seemed like an easier goal to achieve,
Yeah fr even that was considered 'out there's until very recently.
Just stop repeating and reinforcing CIA narratives, easy-peasy!
:screm-a:
I'd just like people to source their claims more in these discussions, lol.
China's policies do sometimes have problems, which should be discussed. Just, y'know, with evidence and nuance, unlike in the screenshot.
[other idpol]
Fucking sus. This is the stupidpol shit I was talking about in my longer comment about the topic.
Edit: the account is 11 days old lol
Pretty sure this is one of the wreckers that blends in for a while trying to be more clever than they actually are.
Let's assume you're correct (you aren't). It would take less time for me to create a new account than it did for you to check my history and then go complain about it in multiple comments and probably moderator reports.
11 day old account talking about idpol, don’t bother replying to them.
Because I think I remember the exchange that you referred to.
Xi Jin Ping himself: "In China, sometimes there are car accidents."
HexbearUser: "Source? Or did you get that from your handler"
I mean... it's good and correct to ask for sources. Noticeably, no one in the screenshot did and that's why the discussion went nowhere.
No everything has to be serious at all times and we cannot find any humor in the absurdity of hell world. The last time I smiled was on August 19th, 1991. I wear a dirty ushanka at all times, do not shave, and only take cold sponge baths because hot running water is bourgeoisie decadence. Every day at exactly noon I have the same meal of an expired Maoist MRE I store in a pit covered in old issues of a revolutionary newspaper. I sleep in a bed made of flags from every failed revolution so that they are never forgotten. In the evenings I stare at a picture of vodka by candlelight, but I do not allow myself to drink because there is nothing to celebrate. Every local org has banned me after I attempted to split it by assassinating the leadership. There is no plumbing in my house I shit in a brass bucket with a picture of Gonzalo and Deng french kissing in the bottom of it. My house is actually an overturned T34 in an abandoned junkyard in Wisconsin. I have a single friend in this world and it is a tapeworm named Bordiga that I met after ingesting spoiled borscht on 9/11 in the ruins of building 7 (I blew it up after finding that a nominally leftist NGO inside of it wasn’t sufficiently anti-imperialist, the attacks on the world trade center were a perfect revolutionary moment for me to enact direct praxis against liberalism). My source of income is various MLM schemes in the former soviet bloc that have been running for so long no one remembers who I am, they just keep sending money. I have not paid taxes since McGovern lost the Democratic nomination for president and my faith in electoralism died more brutally than my childhood dog after it got into an entire jar of tylenol. I own 29 fully automatic rusted kalashnikovs and three crates of ammunition entirely incompatible with them or any other firearms I own. My double PHD in marxist economics and 18th century Swiss philosophy (required to understand Engels) sits over the fireplace of my home, my fireplace is a salvaged drum from a 1950s washing machine that was recalled for locking children inside of it. I chose that washing machine model on purpose because I am anti-natalist. During the latest BLM protests I firebombed a Nikes outlet in the middle of a peaceful candlelit vigil. William F Buckley and I wrote hatemail to one another for 47 years until my final letter gave him an aneurysm. The only water I drink is from puddles. George Lucas and I dropped acid together during an MKULTRA southern baptist summer camp and he went on to write the movie Willow about our time together. The best way to test whether an electrical wire is live is to drool on it and shrimp salad is racist. You can make an IED out of potassium and the instructions are online thanks to Timothy McVey, who was actually a committed antifascist communist slandered by the deep state as part of operation condor. Every time a liberal files a restraining order against me, I carve a mark into the wall. I am running out of walls. When Amerika finally collapses I will be ready to lead the revolution. I am very smart and people like being around me.
Amazing copypasta, whoever wrote this will lead the revolution when Amerika finally collapses.
:fidel-salute:
:fidel-cool::solidarity::fidel-cool:
(Congrats, it is a good pasta.)
I think some people have (rightly enough) developed severe media skepticism with respect to China, which can occasionally backfire into denial of bad things that they do actually do.
This is why I like to recommend Sixth Tone to people - it covers a lot of these issues through a very critical lens, but it's not a western source (it's literally owned by the party) and so it's a much easier starting point for understanding all of it.
Also, you'll be happy to know that the last guy was just drunk and messing around.
I’ve sworn off China discourse until I actually visit the country. I am allowed to do Russia discourse though
He’s never been there either, he’s just fine living with the contradiction.
Everything said about Russia is both completely false and entirely true.
Russia is a good place to live if you enjoy the worst roads ever created
Bad for cars, bad for your lungs. Not seeing the downside. (Don't smoke, kids, it's bad.)
Oh. I was just drunk and being contrary because the discourse seemed pretty funny.
:xicko:
Hey, can you give me a quick explainer on barbaric? Is it the word itself that's bad? Is it specifically calling China barbaric that's bad?
Basically, what is the context behind why 'barbaric' is quite racist here? I'm super willing to believe it, but I'd like to understand it. The place I know this word from is the Ancient Greeks being racist against non-Greeks, which, well, seems pretty harmless. So I'm assuming there's more recent context which I don't know and would like to learn.
Thanks so much!
In a nutshell, people in colonialist countries calling those in colonies barbaric is classic colonial racism. Also calls back to ideas of "asiatic hordes" which were (and are) prevalent in western countries.
No problem.
Thanks! I'm sure I'll see examples of this everywhere now, because that's how life works. I appreciate the explainer!
Glad to help!
I’m sure I’ll see examples of this everywhere now, because that’s how life works.
:doomer: Yeah, I really feel that.
Love that a thread about silly discourse turns out to have a productive struggle session that ends in actual self-crit.
This is why I love this site lol :rat-salute:
Europe claimed they were the civilized peoples and everyone else were portrayed as barbarian peoples in need of having civilization brought to them. This was the pretense for much of colonialism, civilized society (the white west) vs the barbarian world in need of exploration, expansion and civilization being brought to them.
Who keeps putting the Gauls and Vandals in charge of social policy?!
I was helping some people get hormones, and we were going through Teutonburg forest, and then our guide left, and then....I lost three trans eagles.
I mean, yeah, it's disinterested, and even often reactionary. But calling it barbaric is distilled essence of :lmayo: . Just incredibly racist, jesus.
China just doubled down on classifying homosexuality as a mental illness. Perhaps "barbaric" was a strong term, but if a country's policy is that I'm a "diseased" person, they can fuck right off.
Perhaps “barbaric” was a strong term
Actually, it was a racist term.
K, I'll be sure to just use "cruel" when talking about non-white nations.
Do some serious self-crit. You wouldn't call the Ugandan government the n-word for having reactionary policies.
That doesn't mean anything. Meanwhile, I can still categorize the US penal system as barbaric, and we all understand what I mean. I don't know why Uganda/n*word even grants comparison.
Calling historical victims of colonialism barbaric is racist. Calling historical perpetrators of colonialism barbaric is fine.
Your defense here is "I wouldn't be racist if I were calling white Americans barbaric".
True. I'm simply saying in no context is it okay to call something n-word.
That's true, but it wasn't meant as a direct equivalent. It was meant to point out that racism is not an acceptable response to bad policy, by example of a policy and a slur that are both much worse.
Whichever way you cut it calling anyone non-white barbarians is going to be about as successful as a lead balloon around here. Some understanding of the history of this word and its use in arguing that the Europe was "civilized" and everything else was barbarian in need of civilizing by the great white man would really help.
Allowing a textbook to say it is still bad, but yes, it's obviously not the same thing.
This entire discussion, though, is getting away from the racism of calling China "barbaric". We clearly cannot accept that kind of thing in criticisms of China.
To be fair and balanced, idk about gay people, but trans people in China are technically classified as mentally ill. You need to get a disability card if you want hormones.
Yeah, I'm aware of that, and it's obviously wrong and should be criticized. Hopefully they change the laws surrounding it.
However, there remains no justification for calling China "barbaric" - not that I think you're justifying it.
Out of curiosity, would this feel more correct if there weren't the social stigma around mental illness? I understand calling the state of being trans as an illness to cure is wrong, but if we classified gender dysphoria as a mental illness to be cured, by means of gender affirmation, would that be fine? I'm just asking out of a want to understand the situation better, get an idea of what exactly is wrong here.
I mean... it's fair to criticise China for not blocking that textbook, but they're framing the actual content of the article dishonestly, and it doesn't justify the racism (unjustifiable, of course).
I've been thinking about it for a while, is it our duty to be performatively upset at every injustice in countries you support? How upset should we be? I'd appreciate if the discourse was about Chinese LGBT+ organizations we could support and show solidarity with, but getting mad at headlines doesn't actually improve gay rights anywhere
It's not that we shouldn't ignore the flaws of AES countries, it's important to learn from socialist projects but idk i feel like it would be more productive to focus on LGBT rights at home or something (totally willing to take criticism but I feel as if the feminine Chinese boys debate doesn't seem constructive, it feels gross to type this out but I can't think of a better way to word it and I'm curious of peoples opinions)
You can be mad at more than one thing at a time, but obviously focusing on your own country is what you should be putting the most effort towards.
yeah, we all already agree it's not good but China isn't exterminating femboys, so it's not really our biggest issue.
"being upset" about something does literally nothing lmao
The whole idea of critical support in an online context is absurd. Nobody on here is supporting shit, whether critically or not.
Right, "critical support" means sending a group money and weapons or whatever while yelling at them and trying to change their opinions on stuff.
It doesn't mean "being a fan of them online, but without being blind to their failings." That's not anything.
