• 1heCream [he/him, any]
    ·
    3 years ago

    We have the biggest discourse! Big beautiful discourse, very handsome discourse :trump-anguish:

    • baby_trump [undecided]
      hexagon
      ·
      3 years ago

      :tromp: Folks we have very smart, very intelligent discourse. People come to me and they say, the discourse, it's incredible, very thought provoking, very good.

      • 1heCream [he/him, any]
        ·
        3 years ago

        :a-little-trolling: The fake news media, they come up to me, they ask me "mr President, what do you think of beans". I tell them, beans are no good, I tell them the world is laughing at us for putting beans in our chilly, believe me! But the fake news, the fake news tell people that people like beans in chili!! These are bad people folks, very very bad.

        • bananon [he/him]
          ·
          3 years ago

          :thicc-trump: Folks, believe me, the beans are what give me such a big dump truck of an ass. The fake news media doesn’t want you to know this, because all the big and very large bean companies want to sell their beans to Chyna, instead of here, to the good American bean eaters. They smuggle the beans out of the country in beanie babies, that’s why they’re so expensive, believe me I’ve invested in many beanie babies.

  • Mizokon [none/use name]
    ·
    edit-2
    3 years ago

    From a bit of Sixthtone articles I read it looks like younger people are wayy more progressive in regards to LGBTQ+ rights. Im sure things will improve when older generation starts dying off

      • ChairmanBao [he/him]
        ·
        3 years ago

        Havent things gotten better for the LGBTQ+ community since the 80s though?

        • baby_trump [undecided]
          hexagon
          ·
          3 years ago

          Extremely better. People forget about the reagan admin intentionally ignored the AIDS crisis. People forget about gay panic laws. It's still terrible but not nearly as bad as it once was.

          • Sphere [he/him, they/them]
            ·
            3 years ago

            More recently, people seem to have forgotten that nationally legal gay marriage seemed inconceivable in 2003, to the point that many gay activists were arguing for civil unions because it seemed like an easier goal to achieve,

            • baby_trump [undecided]
              hexagon
              ·
              3 years ago

              Yeah fr even that was considered 'out there's until very recently.

  • axont [she/her, comrade/them]
    ·
    3 years ago

    Isn't this several layers of miscommunication because some apparatus of the Chinese media has tried to curtail kpop style idol culture? And it ended up being a little mismanaged or misguided, but then western media got a hold of it and deliberated misrepresented the situation to Chinese media banned any sort of feminine guys?

    Do I have that right? I just wanna know, please don't yell at me.

    • LeninWeave [none/use name]
      ·
      3 years ago

      There was some misrepresentation, but there's also clearly an element of reactionary policy. The CPC has a pretty big faction with, let's say "boomer mentality", and this does seem to affect their media policies especially.

      If you want decent analysis of it, I recommend Sixth Tone, which is actually a party publication but is very critical on many issues.

      • FidelCastro [he/him]
        ·
        edit-2
        3 years ago

        If you’ve got a link to any sixth tone articles about this, that would be helpful. I’d like to read up on where things are at now.

        • LeninWeave [none/use name]
          ·
          edit-2
          3 years ago

          https://www.sixthtone.com/news/1008389/chinas-ongoing-struggle-against-sissy-young-men

          Here's a short article that argues there are reactionary motivations to the "sissy" thing. The whole website is good, and worth digging through. They have a tag for "gender" specifically, but there's a lot of interesting but critical coverage of a lot of things in there.

          • FidelCastro [he/him]
            ·
            edit-2
            3 years ago

            Dope, thanks. It looks like the “sissy” aspect has also been tied in with the skin bleaching trend they were trying to counter because of how linked the two are. Unfortunate.

      • zifnab25 [he/him, any]
        ·
        edit-2
        3 years ago

        there’s also clearly an element of reactionary policy

        • Private sector setting insane beauty standards that can only be achieved through extensive cosmetic procedures and then dictating success in mainstream media by how tightly you comply

        • Public policy regulation established to reverse this trend, because your committee recognizes it as socially toxic and alienating. But you're employing a gendered term to describe it

        Both of these things are reactionary. Both sides. Both!!!!

    • FidelCastro [he/him]
      ·
      edit-2
      3 years ago

      Yeah, it was a layer of misrepresentation. It’s part of a push by the chinese government to curtail racist western beauty standards like skin bleaching and “double eyelid” cosmetic surgery to look more white. That shit has caught on huge in American-occupied South Korea (wonder why) and is attached to a lot of Kpop.

      If I remember correctly, the policy was focused on requiring wider representation of gender expression in male actors besides the KPop style guys. Many actors were starting to feel pressured into skin bleaching and getting cosmetic surgery on their eyes to get work in the industry and also appeal to their fans, the majority of whom are straight women.

      The party brief discussing this used a slang word in quotations as an example which doesn’t translate correctly when you throw it into google translate. I think it translated to “sissy”, which apparently wasn’t a very accurate translation. Still, that word choice also rightfully got shit in China because it is a word used by reactionary conservative boomers. This added to the confusion once the story made it over here.

      This was from when the first wave of “China is banning le fembois” talking points showed up. I checked out after I saw that there was this degree of ambiguity to it because:

        1. I don’t live in China
        1. I don’t speak Mandarin
        1. Our entire media apparatus is actively trying to find every angle it can to build support for a cold/hot war with China.

      This then got complicated even further online because a chunk of stupidpol motherfuckers started concern trolling / stanning for China in support of them banning “sissy boys”. That then poisoned the well if you pushed back on the articles claiming this stuff.

      I’m sure there’s other shit and maybe more info has come out since then. China legitimately does still have a lot of issues it needs to work on with LGBTQIA rights. This struck me as noise that got in the way of being able to actually discuss those problems.

    • baby_trump [undecided]
      hexagon
      ·
      3 years ago

      I'm gonna be honest with you, I have no idea who is correct in this argument. Just admired the high quality discourse it sparked lol.

  • toledosequel [none/use name]
    ·
    edit-2
    3 years ago

    Xi Jin Ping himself: "In China, sometimes there are car accidents."

    HexbearUser: "Source? Or did you get that from your handler"

    • LeninWeave [none/use name]
      ·
      3 years ago

      I mean... it's good and correct to ask for sources. Noticeably, no one in the screenshot did and that's why the discussion went nowhere.

        • LeninWeave [none/use name]
          ·
          3 years ago

          No everything has to be serious at all times and we cannot find any humor in the absurdity of hell world. The last time I smiled was on August 19th, 1991. I wear a dirty ushanka at all times, do not shave, and only take cold sponge baths because hot running water is bourgeoisie decadence. Every day at exactly noon I have the same meal of an expired Maoist MRE I store in a pit covered in old issues of a revolutionary newspaper. I sleep in a bed made of flags from every failed revolution so that they are never forgotten. In the evenings I stare at a picture of vodka by candlelight, but I do not allow myself to drink because there is nothing to celebrate. Every local org has banned me after I attempted to split it by assassinating the leadership. There is no plumbing in my house I shit in a brass bucket with a picture of Gonzalo and Deng french kissing in the bottom of it. My house is actually an overturned T34 in an abandoned junkyard in Wisconsin. I have a single friend in this world and it is a tapeworm named Bordiga that I met after ingesting spoiled borscht on 9/11 in the ruins of building 7 (I blew it up after finding that a nominally leftist NGO inside of it wasn’t sufficiently anti-imperialist, the attacks on the world trade center were a perfect revolutionary moment for me to enact direct praxis against liberalism). My source of income is various MLM schemes in the former soviet bloc that have been running for so long no one remembers who I am, they just keep sending money. I have not paid taxes since McGovern lost the Democratic nomination for president and my faith in electoralism died more brutally than my childhood dog after it got into an entire jar of tylenol. I own 29 fully automatic rusted kalashnikovs and three crates of ammunition entirely incompatible with them or any other firearms I own. My double PHD in marxist economics and 18th century Swiss philosophy (required to understand Engels) sits over the fireplace of my home, my fireplace is a salvaged drum from a 1950s washing machine that was recalled for locking children inside of it. I chose that washing machine model on purpose because I am anti-natalist. During the latest BLM protests I firebombed a Nikes outlet in the middle of a peaceful candlelit vigil. William F Buckley and I wrote hatemail to one another for 47 years until my final letter gave him an aneurysm. The only water I drink is from puddles. George Lucas and I dropped acid together during an MKULTRA southern baptist summer camp and he went on to write the movie Willow about our time together. The best way to test whether an electrical wire is live is to drool on it and shrimp salad is racist. You can make an IED out of potassium and the instructions are online thanks to Timothy McVey, who was actually a committed antifascist communist slandered by the deep state as part of operation condor. Every time a liberal files a restraining order against me, I carve a mark into the wall. I am running out of walls. When Amerika finally collapses I will be ready to lead the revolution. I am very smart and people like being around me.

      • LeninWeave [none/use name]
        ·
        edit-2
        3 years ago

        I think some people have (rightly enough) developed severe media skepticism with respect to China, which can occasionally backfire into denial of bad things that they do actually do.

        This is why I like to recommend Sixth Tone to people - it covers a lot of these issues through a very critical lens, but it's not a western source (it's literally owned by the party) and so it's a much easier starting point for understanding all of it.

        Also, you'll be happy to know that the last guy was just drunk and messing around.

  • GoroAkechi [he/him]
    ·
    3 years ago

    I’ve sworn off China discourse until I actually visit the country. I am allowed to do Russia discourse though

      • Good_Username [they/them,e/em/eir]
        ·
        3 years ago

        Hey, can you give me a quick explainer on barbaric? Is it the word itself that's bad? Is it specifically calling China barbaric that's bad?

        Basically, what is the context behind why 'barbaric' is quite racist here? I'm super willing to believe it, but I'd like to understand it. The place I know this word from is the Ancient Greeks being racist against non-Greeks, which, well, seems pretty harmless. So I'm assuming there's more recent context which I don't know and would like to learn.

        Thanks so much!

        • LeninWeave [none/use name]
          ·
          3 years ago

          In a nutshell, people in colonialist countries calling those in colonies barbaric is classic colonial racism. Also calls back to ideas of "asiatic hordes" which were (and are) prevalent in western countries.

          No problem.

            • LeninWeave [none/use name]
              ·
              3 years ago

              Glad to help!

              I’m sure I’ll see examples of this everywhere now, because that’s how life works.

              :doomer: Yeah, I really feel that.

              • Nakoichi [they/them]M
                ·
                3 years ago

                Love that a thread about silly discourse turns out to have a productive struggle session that ends in actual self-crit.

                This is why I love this site lol :rat-salute:

        • Awoo [she/her]
          ·
          edit-2
          3 years ago

          Europe claimed they were the civilized peoples and everyone else were portrayed as barbarian peoples in need of having civilization brought to them. This was the pretense for much of colonialism, civilized society (the white west) vs the barbarian world in need of exploration, expansion and civilization being brought to them.

    • baby_trump [undecided]
      hexagon
      ·
      3 years ago

      Idk if barbaric is a good term to use for a nonwhite country...

        • GreenTeaRedFlag [any]
          ·
          3 years ago

          I was helping some people get hormones, and we were going through Teutonburg forest, and then our guide left, and then....I lost three trans eagles.

      • LeninWeave [none/use name]
        ·
        edit-2
        3 years ago

        I mean, yeah, it's disinterested, and even often reactionary. But calling it barbaric is distilled essence of :lmayo: . Just incredibly racist, jesus.

      • khodahafez_dispenser [comrade/them]
        ·
        3 years ago

        China just doubled down on classifying homosexuality as a mental illness. Perhaps "barbaric" was a strong term, but if a country's policy is that I'm a "diseased" person, they can fuck right off.

            • LeninWeave [none/use name]
              ·
              edit-2
              3 years ago

              Do some serious self-crit. You wouldn't call the Ugandan government the n-word for having reactionary policies.

              • khodahafez_dispenser [comrade/them]
                ·
                3 years ago

                That doesn't mean anything. Meanwhile, I can still categorize the US penal system as barbaric, and we all understand what I mean. I don't know why Uganda/n*word even grants comparison.

                • LeninWeave [none/use name]
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  3 years ago

                  Calling historical victims of colonialism barbaric is racist. Calling historical perpetrators of colonialism barbaric is fine.

                  Your defense here is "I wouldn't be racist if I were calling white Americans barbaric".

                    • LeninWeave [none/use name]
                      ·
                      edit-2
                      3 years ago

                      That's true, but it wasn't meant as a direct equivalent. It was meant to point out that racism is not an acceptable response to bad policy, by example of a policy and a slur that are both much worse.

            • Awoo [she/her]
              ·
              edit-2
              3 years ago

              Whichever way you cut it calling anyone non-white barbarians is going to be about as successful as a lead balloon around here. Some understanding of the history of this word and its use in arguing that the Europe was "civilized" and everything else was barbarian in need of civilizing by the great white man would really help.

              • LeninWeave [none/use name]
                ·
                edit-2
                3 years ago

                Allowing a textbook to say it is still bad, but yes, it's obviously not the same thing.

                This entire discussion, though, is getting away from the racism of calling China "barbaric". We clearly cannot accept that kind of thing in criticisms of China.

                • bananon [he/him]
                  ·
                  3 years ago

                  To be fair and balanced, idk about gay people, but trans people in China are technically classified as mentally ill. You need to get a disability card if you want hormones.

                  • LeninWeave [none/use name]
                    ·
                    3 years ago

                    Yeah, I'm aware of that, and it's obviously wrong and should be criticized. Hopefully they change the laws surrounding it.

                    However, there remains no justification for calling China "barbaric" - not that I think you're justifying it.

                  • GreenTeaRedFlag [any]
                    ·
                    3 years ago

                    Out of curiosity, would this feel more correct if there weren't the social stigma around mental illness? I understand calling the state of being trans as an illness to cure is wrong, but if we classified gender dysphoria as a mental illness to be cured, by means of gender affirmation, would that be fine? I'm just asking out of a want to understand the situation better, get an idea of what exactly is wrong here.

              • LeninWeave [none/use name]
                ·
                3 years ago

                I mean... it's fair to criticise China for not blocking that textbook, but they're framing the actual content of the article dishonestly, and it doesn't justify the racism (unjustifiable, of course).

    • Lil_Revolitionary [she/her,they/them]
      ·
      edit-2
      3 years ago

      I've been thinking about it for a while, is it our duty to be performatively upset at every injustice in countries you support? How upset should we be? I'd appreciate if the discourse was about Chinese LGBT+ organizations we could support and show solidarity with, but getting mad at headlines doesn't actually improve gay rights anywhere

      It's not that we shouldn't ignore the flaws of AES countries, it's important to learn from socialist projects but idk i feel like it would be more productive to focus on LGBT rights at home or something (totally willing to take criticism but I feel as if the feminine Chinese boys debate doesn't seem constructive, it feels gross to type this out but I can't think of a better way to word it and I'm curious of peoples opinions)

      • GenderIsOpSec [she/her]
        ·
        3 years ago

        You can be mad at more than one thing at a time, but obviously focusing on your own country is what you should be putting the most effort towards.

      • GreenTeaRedFlag [any]
        ·
        3 years ago

        yeah, we all already agree it's not good but China isn't exterminating femboys, so it's not really our biggest issue.

    • CopsDyingIsGood [he/him]
      ·
      3 years ago

      "being upset" about something does literally nothing lmao

      The whole idea of critical support in an online context is absurd. Nobody on here is supporting shit, whether critically or not.

      • NonWonderDog [he/him]
        ·
        3 years ago

        Right, "critical support" means sending a group money and weapons or whatever while yelling at them and trying to change their opinions on stuff.

        It doesn't mean "being a fan of them online, but without being blind to their failings." That's not anything.