Was thinking about this last night. I have friends who I really don’t know anything about on an emotional level because I’ve drilled into my head it’s a conversation meant to be shared in therapy. But there’s also a part of me that sees the value in getting to know people as humans and not just their 9-5 selves. I have fem-presenting friends who seem to be more open to these types of conversations, but I genuinely want to find the line between sharing and over sharing. As a man, It’s pretty depressing to think about tbh, knowing other men for decades but not really knowing anything about them besides their favorite teams or beer.
Is this a thing that’s exclusive to males? Also, if you have any good literature recommendations for this topic please drop below 😅
Emotional labor as a term arose from workers being expected to also fake their emotions at work - smiling/caring/ etc.
But anyway, this new term for emotional labour is important to discuss as well.
So on the one hand,
dumping problems on people unprompted can be really shitty for them. especially femme presenting people are expected to be emotional caretakers.
On the other hand,
"only share that in therapy" sounds like an capitalist nightmare which is yet again destroying solidarity and free socialization. As the meme goes "they paywalled the human connection" Humans are meant to be social, we're meant to share things with one another. That's normal. It's totally okay to say "hey can i open up about something that's bothering me?" Or "i'm in a rough spot and want to talk about, but i don't want don't want to burden you with it" if people ask. It's good, actually
some people consider it oversharing to talk about certain topics, and other people don't. It's really a relationship to relationship thing. Best thing to do is just ask close friends if you can talk about something deep.
AAAAAAAAAAAAA THAT'S NOT WHAT EMOTIONAL LABOR MEANS.
YES YR SUPPOSED TO CONFIDE IN YOUR FRIENDS THAT IS HOW CLOSE BONDS ARE FORMED. YES IT IS SOMETIMES STRESSFUL TO BE VULNERABLE AND TO MEET ANOTHER'S VULNERABILITY IN TURN BUT ITS WORTH IT AND RESULTS IN THAT COLLECTIVE STRENGTH UNAVAILABLE TO US AS INDIVIDUALS.
😅 I guess my main concern is that I have a lot of fem-presenting friends and I’m kinda worried they’ll take a conversation like that as a romantic advance or something
That's kinda reductive. Just because someone is fem presenting, doesn't mean that they're gonna think you talking about your feelings in you trying to make an advance on them.
You really just have to start talking with people and see how they are responding. Start by sharing something about yourself, then see if they respond in kind.
Now as someone else said, if you only try to share like this with your fem presenting friends and don't reciprocate for them, that's actually asking them to perform some sort of emotional labor (in the context you're using it, not like how it was originally intended as with "have a nice day" requirements in service work).
These discussions are always 2 way, or if they aren't it's the other person opening up and offering to listen because they care about you.
In my experience, all you have to do is start asking others if they're okay, or if they start showing in some reserved way that they aren't doing okay that you are open to talk with them. This approach is actually really cathartic for everyone and in my experience has helped create really strong communities and friend groups where everyone who sees that behavior starts partaking in it because it's incredibly helpful for everyone.
if they're actually yr friends i don't think they would jump to this conclusion. also people can suspect/wonder if their friends might have a small crush on/attraction to them and not have it be a big deal or something to be pathologized (but again idt they'd jump to this conclusion). the bigger concern IMO is using your fem friends as one-sided emotional crutches - that does come up sometimes but even this i think is overstated as long as you make an effort to learn to be a good listener and give them space to lean on you and be vulnerable with you. as long as they can sense you're trying to be there for them as much as they are for you i really don't think that has to be an issue either.
No we won't, ironically men hold themselves back by this fear. Just talk asshole (\pos), treat me like one of the guys. That's all we want bro
If a friend of mine gave a feast, and did not invite me to it, I should not mind a bit. But if a friend of mine had a sorrow and refused to allow me to share it, I should feel it most bitterly. If he shut the doors of the house of mourning against me, I would move back again and again and beg to be admitted so that I might share in what I was entitled to share. If he thought me unworthy, unfit to weep with him, I should feel it as the most poignant humiliation. -- Oscar Wilde
He's a lib but he said a few good ones.
Paywalling shared mourning, solidarity and comradeship sounds like the worst thing in the world. Care for and love those around you. There's a reason there's an obsession with therapy in the US that doesn't exist in remotely the same way in Europe, and yet the rates of depression and suicide are significantly worse. Maybe they'd be even worse without the therapy which exists solely to hold back the floodgates because america is so utterly shit, but also maybe just people caring for each other more and being a little nicer (sincerely not fakely) makes up for it in europe.
There's a real discussion to have about this because there's a very real cultural difference in the way americans push therapy compared to over here. I don't know anyone without a neurodiversity issue or actual severe depression who goes to therapy, partly because it's expensive and inaccessible for free like other healthcare (without literal year long waiting lists) but that's besides the point.
Anglosphere masculinity is so messed up.
Why not just try opening up? Be a bit vulnerable yourself with your guy friends, that’ll help them feel safe to reciprocate.
Wish you the best OP.
It’s so so fucked. The more I deconstruct my previous way of thinking, the more it becomes abundantly obvious that one of the main problems in the world today is toxic masculinity. I guess that’s what the Barbie movie was trying to show but (maybe an unpopular opinion) I think it did a very poor job of it. From the women I talked to about it, their takeaway is that “This shows why we need more girlboss CEOs and business owners.”
Maybe that’ll be my New Year’s resolution 🤔Thanks so much <3
For me personally, I'm happy to talk about this sort of thing with my friends, but I'm not particularly interested in making friends with my co-workers.
There's being friendly and polite of course, but I'm perfectly happy with my existing social circle and the last thing I want is my professional life starting to leak into my personal one.
If people are only engaging with the 9-5 selves, I would assume they're not too interested in sharing more.
Indeed, makes sense. I have friends I’ve never worked with in my life who only care to talk about things like their job, so to spice things up a little, I ask them questions and usually get them to talking about how they hate it. Usually opens the door for talk of socialism
That’s as far as I’ve gotten with those types, but I would like to understand more like the specifics of what they value in life
I feel you. Men aren't allowed to show certain emotions. We can be excited about sports, angry, horny, or happy but in a reserved way. Giggle happy? Nope. Sad? Nope. Sentimental? Only about dogs and trucks and maybe in private with our partners, but be careful with that because there are women who are toxic and crying men is a big ick for them.
That said, we must be the change we want to see in the world. The paradigm has to shift somehow. So lay those feelings on me IRL, brother. Cry on my shoulder. Tell me about how your marriage is starting to feel stale or your partner distant. Get depressed with me about your aging dog starting to decline in health. I'll listen and a bunch of other men out there will listen these days, too. Some of us have been through it. We have experience to share and advice to give. Sometimes, we can drink a few with you and just hear you out and say, "yeah" and "yep" every now and again in a gruff voice if that's what you need. We are around. Times are a changin'.
I genuinely want to find the line between sharing and over sharing
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Trial and error. Do a thing and pay attention to how others respond to it. If positive, its okay to openly share. If negative, that's probably a boundary point that doesn't need to be stepped over very often. If ambivalent, maybe its just not a good time to discuss the thing with that person right now. Situations should dictate which topics and how much you open up about them.
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How do you express something personal to others? When I've worked at places, I'm usually more stoic compared to others. So it has been somewhat of a regular occurrence to listen to somebody over share and I wonder to myself, "Are they trying to get a rise out of me or do I just make them feel safe enough to feel okay letting it all out?" Usually its okay, but while I'm not to bad at talking to people who are oversharing at me I'm not great at offering comfort.
Awww man so you’re saying I have to make myself vulnerable
I appreciate the advice, I actually think vulnerability being seen as “weak” trait is part of the problem here
Not totally or completely, but, if there's something small that is bothering you and it seems like it wouldn't be too odd to suddenly start a conversation about it with some other people... yeah, go for it.
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Ask people for feedback, and ask for permission or check-in before sharing. Something like 'Hey I've been struggling with x recently, do you have the energy to talk through it with me?' Also making sure people feel safe to tell you when they need to disengage and trusting them to do so is a big thing.
ask for permission or check-in before sharing. Something like 'Hey I've been struggling with x recently, do you have the energy to talk through it with me?'
this for sure, checking in abt whether someone has the emotional capacity in that moment is goated.
Timing is everything. Usually I get to know coworkers more in after hours social activities (bars and dinners) rather than during the standard 9-5 setting.
It's vague and probably unhelpful but usually it doesn't take very much to break the ice..it's counterintuitive but usually just being a good listener will help and then people will reciprocate. You can get a lot of mileage out of making jokes about some of the bullshit at work that everyone knows is bullshit, as long as you keep it light and not actually get angry about it. Basically just treat it all as a game (even though it isn't).
I still pick and choose what I share though, it's just a thing I do. I am private and like to pick what I share.
For me, just talking about your feelings and being open with friends is normal. When it veers into regular, multiple-hour long conversations that go around in circles and you realize your friend is just using you as a distraction instead of actually addressing the root cause of their problem that's emotional labor. It's completely draining and most of the time achieves nothing other than delaying the inevitable of addressing the issue for real. I've done this countless times and it finally clicked that the person didn't actually want help or to put in any effort in.
It's definitely a male social norm and is one of many reasons I'm non-binary because that shit just doesn't feel right
Weird lib stuff. It's important to help others. But it is also important to make sure it isn't stressing you out too.
But yeah male culture is so fucked I know the shade of my girl friends poop
