• Nakoichi [they/them]
    ·
    edit-2
    3 years ago

    Working conditions includes workers striking over lack of covid protection measures.

    Honestly really disappointed in Wolff for this.

    • volkvulture [none/use name]
      ·
      3 years ago

      yes, which falls mainly on owners & employers and not average mischaracterized Americans

      Wolff is right here

          • Nakoichi [they/them]
            ·
            edit-2
            3 years ago

            We wouldn't if the US wasn't full of anti-vaxx brainworms.

            Don't tell me about what is or isn't about science while doing some underhanded anti-vaxx apologia.

              • Nakoichi [they/them]
                ·
                3 years ago

                You're just distracting from the original point. People aren't striking because mandates. You're undermining the labor movement and deflecting from the real cause that is workplace safety and wages.

                • volkvulture [none/use name]
                  ·
                  3 years ago

                  "Distracting?"

                  People are striking because of conditions, which include bad governance & bad corporate policy... largely around how inconsistent the handling of the pandemic has been

                  why are you separating out ultrapartisan reductionism here? both parties did horribly & New York City still has the worst death rates since the pandemic started

                  • Nakoichi [they/them]
                    ·
                    3 years ago

                    I fucking work retail this is not partisan this is about safety.

                      • Nakoichi [they/them]
                        ·
                        3 years ago

                        You're using vague terms and moving the goal posts all over the place. The vaccine mandates are not why people are striking. FULL STOP.

                          • please_dont [he/him]
                            ·
                            3 years ago

                            volkvulture has been a community member since before tha sub was banned

                        • volkvulture [none/use name]
                          ·
                          3 years ago

                          people are definitely protesting over mandates globally, the labor disputes are largely to do with worsening conditions around changes implemented or policies inadequately implemented since the pandemic started

                          • Nakoichi [they/them]
                            ·
                            3 years ago

                            ffs we already addressed this. There are people protesting yes. But protest =/= strike.

                            There are hundreds of thousands of people striking right now for reasons that are specific and have zero relation to vaccine mandates.

                            You are trying to use their struggle to push some anti vaxx shit and you're acting super sus about it.

                              • Nakoichi [they/them]
                                ·
                                3 years ago

                                No you're cherry picking. The overwhelming majority of strikes have nothing to do with vaccines. Why is this the hill you are willing to die on?

                                • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                  ·
                                  edit-2
                                  3 years ago

                                  they're all in the same cauldron of conditions, which includes increased pressure on the workers by governments & the managers & owners & bosses through inconsistent and/or inadequately applied policies

                                    • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                      ·
                                      3 years ago

                                      yes, the material conditions are how much workers will put up with before resigning or protesting or going on wildcat strikes without union approval/protection

                                      • Nakoichi [they/them]
                                        ·
                                        3 years ago

                                        and you're focusing on a tiny few workers and not the real issue. Which is wages and safety measures. You're siding with anti-vaxxers to... what exactly?

                                        • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                          ·
                                          3 years ago

                                          I see thousands in Italy having done the same

                                          https://qz.com/2074464/italys-new-vaccine-mandate-prompts-labor-strikes-protests/

                                          • Nakoichi [they/them]
                                            ·
                                            edit-2
                                            3 years ago

                                            Okay but that's not why tens of thousands more people are striking for wages and safety measures against covid. You're caping for right wingers right now and I can't imagine why.

                                            • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                              ·
                                              3 years ago

                                              Yes, the safety measures applied by the companies, but workers definitely don't want government mandates either

                                              • Nakoichi [they/them]
                                                ·
                                                3 years ago

                                                Workers are the ones advocating for these measures too. I should know I'm engaged in labor organizing myself. What you are doing right now is not helpful and not welcome.

                                                It's self-crit time bud.

                                                • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                  ·
                                                  edit-2
                                                  3 years ago

                                                  Workers aren't advocating for government restrictions & mandates on themselves, they're advocating for the opposite

                                                        • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                          ·
                                                          edit-2
                                                          3 years ago

                                                          Yes, I did the self-crit.. it caused me to not demonize average Americans & workers who are protesting & resigning & struggling against the ownership/employer classes

                                                          bye

                                                          • Nakoichi [they/them]
                                                            ·
                                                            3 years ago

                                                            You're ignoring the fact that many union and strike demands are to implement such measures. More so in fact than people quitting or protesting against them. And the latter of those people are overwhelmingly chuds. You're defending reactionaries right now.

                                                            • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                              ·
                                                              3 years ago

                                                              They want employers to protect them using company resources... workers are not protesting for government restrictions against themselves

                                                                    • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                      ·
                                                                      3 years ago

                                                                      oh right... democracy & socialism is about how special & smart you are as an individual lol

                                                                      • silent_water [she/her]
                                                                        ·
                                                                        3 years ago

                                                                        ahh yes, the right of refusal is real socialism. cast aside collective demands for common health - what matters is the individual. this is socialism. :thonk:

                                                                        you're arguing for property rights, liberal.

                                                                              • Spike [none/use name]
                                                                                ·
                                                                                3 years ago

                                                                                Except that vaccinated people are less likely to spread the virus and less likely to become infected while also being less likely to be symptomatic or die if they do get the virus.

                                                                                https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2021-09-24/covid-vaccines-do-they-change-risk-of-infection/100484432

                                                                                https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html

                                                                                https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/

                                                                                https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/vaccinated-people-are-less-likely-spread-covid-new-research-finds-n1280583

                                                                                https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.12.21261991v1

                                                                                I can link more if you'd like.

                                                                                You're literally wrong but you're too stubborn to believe otherwise because you have a parasocial attachment to an antivax grifter. Grow up.

                                                                                • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                                  ·
                                                                                  3 years ago

                                                                                  "“Although vaccines remain highly effective at preventing severe disease and deaths from COVID-19, our findings suggest that vaccination is not sufficient to prevent transmission of the delta variant in household settings with prolonged exposures,” the study said."

                                                                                • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                                  ·
                                                                                  3 years ago

                                                                                  https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-28/getting-vaccinated-doesn-t-stop-people-from-spreading-delta

                                                                                • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                                  ·
                                                                                  3 years ago

                                                                                  No, the most recent studies say that unvaccinated & vaccinated people are equally susceptible & equally capable of spreading the virus once infected

                                                                                  but severity of individual cases is reduced in Vaccinated persons

                                                                                  https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/covid-19/news/viral-loads-similar-between-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people

                                                                                  "Although vaccinated people with a breakthrough infection are much less likely to become severely ill than unvaccinated, the new study shows that they can be carrying similar amounts of virus and could potentially spread the virus to other people. This study did not directly address how easily vaccinated people can get infected with SARS-CoV-2, or how readily someone with a breakthrough infection can transmit the virus. "

                                                                                  • hexaflexagonbear [he/him]
                                                                                    ·
                                                                                    edit-2
                                                                                    3 years ago

                                                                                    Just because the viral load among asymptomatic people is the same with or without the vaccine, doesn't necessarily mean the vaccine has no effect on the virus. It seems that viral load is correlated with the probability of displaying symptoms, and since the vaccine lowers that probability, it may well be the case that while viral load given symptom and viral load given no symptom is the same across the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations, nevertheless viral load given infection is lower in the vaccinated population.

                                                                                  • Spike [none/use name]
                                                                                    ·
                                                                                    3 years ago

                                                                                    You linked three articles citing one study which says "Fully vaccinated individuals with delta variant infection had a faster (posterior probability >0·84) mean rate of viral load decline (0·95 log10 copies per mL per day) than did unvaccinated individuals with pre-alpha (0·69), alpha (0·82), or delta (0·79) variant infections". and "The analysis also found that 25% of vaccinated household contacts still contracted the disease from an index case, while 38% of those who hadn’t had shots became infected."

                                                                                    This means that no, vaccinated people are not equally susceptible of getting the virus.

                                                                                    There are also two issues with the study; "The proportion of asymptomatic cases did not differ among fully vaccinated, partially vaccinated, and unvaccinated delta groups", and "However, given that index cases were identified through routine symptomatic surveillance, there might have been a selection bias towards identifying untypically symptomatic vaccine breakthrough index cases." This means that the study is not conclusive and more needs to be done to capture a real population. Medical science doesn't work by simply having one or two studies on a subject, make a conclusion, then move on. There needs to be many reproducible results of varying types of studies to build a body of evidence.

                                                                                    Now, if your interpretation was correct that vaccines have no effect on the spread of the virus, then it would further reinforce the need to be vaccinated since it would seem inevitable that everyone will be infected, therefore the only protection from death or severe symptoms is being vaccinated.

                                                                                • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                                  ·
                                                                                  3 years ago

                                                                                  No, unvaccinated people are just as likely to become infected & spread the virus, but not as likely to have advanced or severe symptoms

                                                                                    • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                                      ·
                                                                                      3 years ago

                                                                                      no, the infections themselves happen regardless, but asymptomatic cases still spread the virus

                                                                                      https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/can-i-still-spread-covid-19-after-vaccination

                                                                                        • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                                          ·
                                                                                          3 years ago

                                                                                          yes, it's people who have caught the virus... are you not reading?

                                                                                          "In summary, the virus is changing and we are learning more about the new variants (including the now predominant delta variant) every day, but it is possible for someone who has been vaccinated to develop a breakthrough infection (with or without symptoms) and spread the virus"

                                                                                            • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                                              ·
                                                                                              3 years ago

                                                                                              No, it's certain that it happens... the data bears this out

                                                                                              asymptomatic cases in vaccinated individuals still transmit the virus, hence why there are recommendations for fully vaccinated people to mask up & practice hygiene & social distancing still

                                                                                                • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                                                  ·
                                                                                                  3 years ago

                                                                                                  "The researchers looked at 869 positive samples, 500 from Healthy Yolo Together and 369 from Unidos en Salud. All the Healthy Yolo Together samples were from people who were asymptomatic at the time of positive test result, and three-quarters were from unvaccinated individuals. The Unidos en Salud samples included both asymptomatic and symptomatic cases. Just over half (198) of the Unidos en Salud samples were unvaccinated"

                                                                                                  Asymptomatic people aren't going to get tested usually... this study was for asymptomatic cases at the time of positive test result

                                                                                                        • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                                                          ·
                                                                                                          3 years ago

                                                                                                          no, they don't reduce one's susceptibility to being infected with the virus, they only reduce symptoms or severity of symptoms if a breakthrough case does occur

                                                                                                          people get the virus even with the vaccine, and spread the virus despite having the vaccine & not showing symptoms

                                                                                                            • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                                                              ·
                                                                                                              3 years ago

                                                                                                              COVID vaccines are not designed to give sterilising immunity

                                                                                                              "COVID-19 vaccines were never going to give us sterilizing immunity; it's possible they never will. But the reason isn't just their design, or the wily nature of the virus, or heavy and frequent exposures, though those factors all play a role. It's that sterilizing immunity itself might be a biological myth.Sep 9, 2021"

                                                                                                              • TrudeauCastroson [he/him]
                                                                                                                ·
                                                                                                                3 years ago

                                                                                                                sterilizing immunity

                                                                                                                you're moving goalposts. A vaccine also doesn't need to be 100% effective in stopping spread/infection to work to reduce overall case counts.

                                                                                                                You're less likely to get covid if you get vaccinated. Thus you're less likely to get it in the first place and spread it to others.

                                                                                                                You're arguing that because a vaccine doesn't let you walk into a room of coughing corona patients without PPE that it's 0% effective at stopping spread. This is a stupid argument.

                                                                                    • Three_Magpies [he/him]
                                                                                      ·
                                                                                      3 years ago

                                                                                      I'm pretty sure this is true, and it's always been true, but people have chosen to ignore it.

                                                                          • silent_water [she/her]
                                                                            ·
                                                                            3 years ago

                                                                            this country is a settler state founded on genocide and slavery. consent is nowhere to be found in it's legal system. it's founded on property rights and especially the right to dispose of one's property as the owner prefers. the framework you're referring to extended those rights to include the body as one's property in place of anything resembling informed consent. you are defending property rights.

                                                                            • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                              ·
                                                                              3 years ago

                                                                              Cuba's flag was designed by someone who defended slavery & wanted Cuba to join the USA as a slave state

                                                                              Did you know that Cuba had slavery 100 years before Anglo North America did and that indigenous removal was as bad there as anywhere?

                                                                              Cuba didn't change its flag after the revolution

                                                                              Is Cuba allowed to be socialist even though Spaniard colonial-settlers still live there & genocide happened?

                                                      • WALLTHERICH [comrade/them]
                                                        ·
                                                        3 years ago

                                                        No, you're an anti-vaxxer, which puts you solidly at odds with workers everywhere. Advocating for mass death for the working class is bad, lib.

              • cilantrofellow [any]
                ·
                edit-2
                3 years ago

                70% is only valid as a herd immunity target for diseases that do not reinfect and do not demonstrate an evolutionary rate capable of vaccine escape.

                I appreciate the nuance Wolff thinks he’s applying but it’s neither the time nor place.

                Edited as my 70% was vague.

                • volkvulture [none/use name]
                  ·
                  3 years ago

                  Yes it's both the time and the place

                  ~70% is for 12+, for adults it's actually quite a bit higher

                  For the most vulnerable populations the vaccine rate is 85%+

                  • BeanBoy [she/her]
                    ·
                    3 years ago

                    70% rate for the country doesn’t mean everywhere in the country reached 70% which is why we’re getting variants that can break through vaccines

            • volkvulture [none/use name]
              ·
              3 years ago

              Many people are protesting & striking & resigning against mandates

              Better covid protections & higher wages are part and parcel to the larger struggle against being pitted against customers by owners/managers

              • effervescent [they/them]
                ·
                3 years ago

                Many people are protesting & striking & resigning against mandates

                There have been dozens of stories about this and they’ve all been debunked as right-wing grift. There’s a lot of money in this narrative right now and you’re literally parroting what amounts to science denial propaganda

                • volkvulture [none/use name]
                  ·
                  3 years ago

                  https://www.forbes.com/sites/masonbissada/2021/11/01/2300-fdny-firefighters-call-in-sick-in-apparent-protest-of-vaccine-mandate/?sh=129a0f336b2f

                  so you're saying 2,000 NY firefighters just called in for some other reason?

                  • effervescent [they/them]
                    ·
                    3 years ago

                    I’m saying that the commissioner has every incentive to call what they’re doing a “strike” and is literally the only source saying so. If you put a bunch of workers on unpaid leave, a lot of them are going to burn their sick time. That’s not a strike. But a strike would be illegal and would let them recall the workers, which is the whole point.

                    • volkvulture [none/use name]
                      ·
                      3 years ago

                      yes, we can call labor action many names, but it's still labor action... within or outside of union strictures

                • volkvulture [none/use name]
                  ·
                  3 years ago

                  https://www.forbes.com/sites/masonbissada/2021/11/01/2300-fdny-firefighters-call-in-sick-in-apparent-protest-of-vaccine-mandate/?sh=129a0f336b2f

                  firefighters

                              • Straight_Depth [they/them]
                                ·
                                3 years ago

                                And they are a microscopic segment of the workforce in a very specific sector, limited to a certain geographic area; the vast, vast majoirty of people on strike right now, from John Deere, to coal miners, to film workers, to Starbuck's baristas, to Amazon warehouse drones are protesting shit working conditions; a couple hundred freedom patriot cops and firefighters dos not speak for the working class.

                                • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                  ·
                                  3 years ago

                                  https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/28/business/covid-vaccine-workers-quit/index.html

                                  this says the opposite

                                      • Straight_Depth [they/them]
                                        ·
                                        3 years ago

                                        if their employer mandates vaccines and doesn't offer the testing option

                                        Learn to fucking read

                                        37% of unvaccinated workers say they will quit their jobs if forced to either get vaccinated

                                        37 is less than 72

                                        • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                          ·
                                          edit-2
                                          3 years ago

                                          " 72% of the unvaccinated workers say they will quit."

                                          Union reps & labor experts say it's the most complex issue they have had to deal with in ages

                                          "“​​This is one of the most complex problems that unions have faced possibly in my lifetime,” says Susan Schurman, a professor of labor studies and employment relations at the Rutgers University School of Management and Labor Relations. “Because there is so much diversity among their members in terms of how they are thinking about this.”

                                          Tyson Foods (TSN) offered about 120,000 employees additional paid time off if they comply with its new COVID-19 vaccine mandate. A coalition of unions representing roughly 43,000 Disney World (DIS) employees agreed to a mandate with the company, though it excludes workers with a relevant medical condition or religious beliefs. And in Washington, a union working on behalf of 47,000 state employees reached a tentative deal on a vaccine mandate that will afford workers an extra personal day."

      • silent_water [she/her]
        ·
        3 years ago

        yes, which falls mainly on owners & employers and not average mischaracterized Americans

        yes

        Wolff is right here

        no