Never forget this website was slobbering over Dore and Force the Vote ten months ago.
Maybe this is just me but I don't think anyone was outright opposed to it as a tactic. Neither people here nor YouTube pundits and podcasters. People pointed out that it was a pretty mediocre plan that wasn't likely to work, but I can't remember anyone saying outright "no, do not do that."
But the argument quickly became about more than just the tactic and it was all downhill from there.
Edit: https://youtu.be/aIZYtSuNzzw
Doing time codes in the URL sucks on mobile, jump in right at 12:20 for the "punched in the face" line.
When I tried explaining why it was a bad plan that would make no impact, among the many red hot enraged responses I got was "but what if it did work and we got free healthcare"
:thonk:
I feel like people don’t understand that when shit gets voted on officially, the votes are already agreed beforehand. Performance for performance sake would’ve meant nothing.
But the argument quickly became about more than just the tactic and it was all downhill from there.
Pretty much. JD made it out to be some sort of hot button issue. If anyone even criticized it a bit he'd come out and say they were against the progressive/anti-establishment agenda. And that blew up into a whole bunch of twitter/youtube beefs that became more about all of these extremely online personalities than about the issues themselves.
My opinion of Jimmy had already soured by then, but this just made me hate him. And honestly it kinda made me hate most of the most prominent American youtube "leftist" that I had followed to that point. All that drama did nothing for the leftist movement.
There was a bit of "its not going to do anything anyways so why even try" round these parts.
And I've only just in the last few months had to come to terms with JD's rightward slide myself so, mea culpa.
I know everyone hated talking about it, that it was a fake thing to discuss, but actually I think the whole spectacle did a lot for my understanding of politics & how change can be made in the US.
I was very intrigued, I'd watch Brie talk about it quite a lot and thought what she was saying made sense. Like why shouldn't we risk Pelosi's loss? Even if we get a 'worse speaker' or whatever, it should be worth having taken down the monster Pelosi, even just as a show of force from the left.
Other people would argue that "we're not there yet as a movement, we need to ORGANIZE" which Brie basically laughed off as vague and unclear (wtf does ORGANIZE mean?) I was torn but agreed with her there.
Now in retrospect, I kind of understand what the annoying ORGANIZE people meant. But not in a "nooo pls don't do it" way, more like... it really probably doesn't matter that much. If AOC & friends voted against Pelosi I'd be all for it, but there's not going to be this popular uprising to get M4A passed. The people that need to persuaded aren't clued into DC politics in that way anyway. I'd be inclined to say "just vote against Pelosi either way" but since then I have a more realistic understanding that AOC & the squad aren't the leaders of our revolution. Walking on eggshells is honestly all we can expect. The occasional voice in congress that speaks up for working people, while occasionally doing cringe & awful shit just to stay in power (e.g the Iron Dome Vote).
The spectacle of DC politics is not as relevant as Brie & Dore think. They think this because they're essentially liberal, in the sense that they think congress is all that matters. I think the annoying "ORGANIZE" people were ultimately correct. None of this is going to happen until the working class is organized and demands it.
TLDR; FORCE THE VOTE sounds like a good idea, but if a #squad member decides it's not worth the risk, I'm not going to take it as a betrayal, rather I'll take it as a sign that the US working class is too disorganized for anything good to happen anyway.
I'm genuinely so sorry for writing this much about FTV a year later. It's a good learning moment for me. I submit to Hexbear gulag. :walter-breakdown: :gulag:
I agree with most, if not all, if this; but I can't help but take note that your middle paragraph revolves around Pelosi. To my recollection, that is not what the FTV advocates were focusing on, and I'm specifically recalling how BJG, every time she found herself backed into a corner on this issue, would just go "but what about the 60 million Americans without health insurance?" The Speaker vote was just a means to the goal of M4A.
Minor point but I wanted to put it out there.
Yeah I sensed the same thing, while writing it I was like "damn I'm strawmanning a bit too hard here" and almost deleted it all.
I guess I still don't fully understand what the FTV path was so my critique is lacking (if you wanna elaborate on your point I'm curious to hear). But my overall point stands, that looking to 'DC spectacles' as a means to make political gains such as M4A will not work on its own. BJG's counter argument seemed to be that yes, FTV will probably fail, but that it could spark more working class movement. This I am extremely skeptical of.
It's confusing because I'm too uninformed to really say if the strategy itself is bad or good. I'm just more convinced than ever that it was non-consequential.
but I can’t remember anyone saying outright “no, do not do that.”
:I-was-saying:
She has been the Democratic House leader for 18 years. She is an enemy of the cause. She shouldn't be endorsed or supported under any circumstances.
Same. Pretty much someone put it to me as "just demand something, irregardless of the vote, tactics for some future election aside, get people to used to demanding thing from their government. Not letting "progressives" exist to tell us what we cannot do, and shield the enemy". it is not a correct view of power sure, but end of the day we really do need to get people to accept yelling at politicians and making fucking demands. The vote was not the point, the agitation was
Yeah the alternative is just like dsa trying to expel bowman. It's not much of a threat compared to a bunch of pissed off constituents making your life hell
I think Chapo's stance on Sinema is how we should be prepared to treat all politicians. You sign up for this job, you should be willing to be the most hated person in your state and have no means of avoiding shit. There has to be a sacrifice for holding office
Force the vote never made sense to me. The democrats and the republicans are closer to each other than the democrats and the progressives, whatever that word even means nowadays. So if the left caucus ever walks up to Pelosi and says "add this lefty thing into the bill or we're not voting for it", then the dems, being in the center, have an opportunity to go to the republicans for votes. Pelosi can go to some moderate republicans and ask them to help her dunk of the left. This way Pelosi doesn't have to vote for the left ideas she doesn't like, the left is fucked by being branded traitors, the republicans and the democrats get to jerk off to their bipartizanship, and of course Pelosi will be more than happy to "concede" and add some vile anti-left bullshit into the bill to sweeten the deal for the republicans. So literally everyone except the left wins, and the left are the biggest losers in the world.
It literally just happened with the 1.2 billion bill, and it will always be how it works. The fake news will be clowning on the progressives for weeks. To change the system would mean voting in like two hundred new leftists in the house at once, so the democrats and the republicans banding together cannot pass anything without the left voting for it. As long as the combined power of democrats and republicans is enough to pass anything they want, the left literally doesn't matter.
Thank you for coming to my electoralism tiktok
Excuse me, but I only have good takes that only get better with age.
:blob-no-thoughts:
AOC folded faster than Superman on laundry day.
She's pure Establishment now. They offered her a taste and now she's hitting the pipe every day. The Met Gala, what a shitshow. Nobody was fooled by that dress. Servants masked, rulers unmasked.
He's a crank who occasionally platforms better people and absorbs their good takes, is my understanding.
It was really wild seeing people get mad that AOC wasn't making a completely performative gesture and suggesting anyone who thought it was silly wasn't being serious about pursuing universal healthcare.
i thought everyone here hated force the vote or thought it was extremely libshit???
i've decided he's vaush's dad. every time you all make up another one of these guys they become a character in my storybook
Years ago I watched a lot of TYT, back when it was only slightly to the right of me.
Jimmy Dore's show "Aggressive Progressives" would come on afterward. It seemed like it was to the left of the other TYT shows in its demeanor, so I wanted to watch it.
But I just fucking couldn't. It was absolutely unwatchable, so goddamn incoherent and cringe-inducing. So fucking poorly planned and stupid. Anyone who watches Jimmy Dore is not just politically uneducated, they're also just personally demented, an absolute freak
Wait wait wait... 30 seconds in and my mind is already blown. Jimmy Dore is a comedian
What else would you call someone that makes money reading their tweets to a crowd?
I suppose its been established that it's James when you're serious, Jimmy when you're not
Dude's fucking weird, y'all. Ever seen the clip of him talking about how Emma Vigeland would get punched in the face if she ever encountered "a worker"? I'll try to find it. The guy has issues.
Edit: https://youtu.be/aIZYtSuNzzw
Doing time codes in the URL sucks on mobile, jump in right at 12:20 for the “punched in the face” line.
Also lol at me for editing this into the wrong post earlier.
Just a coincidence I was browsing at the time, but I'm happy to get first.
I'm going to enjoy this video
Lol, I just now realized what the thumbnail looks like from a distance. I'll have to remember this to trick you for real.
Dunking on Dore is good but Skullboy needs to learn how to pronounce says correctly it’s driving me insane. It’s sez not sayyyyysss
I really wanna watch this vid but I cannot deal with needles. Any timestamps to avoid?
