:jesse-wtf: J̶̖̜͊͋̄̎ͅë̷̛͕̗̼̖̄s̸̩̔͊̅̓s̴̟̠̋̎̕ë̴̮́̉͋,̴̠͝ ̸͕͒͝W̸̧͉͎͒͐̄͠h̸͈͙̭̜̓͒a̵̟̜͖̖͐̐̽͠t̷̛̼̼͎̟͑͋ ̵͈̣͚̽͂t̷̺͔̘̣̂̑h̶̳̜̥́e̵͍̳̋́̊ ̷̛̼̪̠F̷̰̈́̀u̴̘̰̣͚̎̽̊ċ̷̡̻ķ̴̲̏̓́͜ ̵̳̘̯̉̈́Ȧ̶̺͚r̴̥͉͚̖̂̊̏͂ȩ̸̝͈̮̈͌̕ ̴̻̌̂͑͝Y̷̤͐̊o̷͔̩̊̏̒̾u̷͇̖̭̒͆ͅ ̵̪͌̽̃͂T̶͚͔͖̟̋̀ã̶͉̺l̴̘̪̫̓͆k̴̼̮̮̦̏̇i̸̝̱̖̋̒͘n̸̘͇̙̹̓̓̀͠g̷̜̳͍̭̕ ̷̨̭͖͈̇̀Ȃ̵͓͕͓̼͒̈́b̶̹̥͖̆ỏ̵͈ṷ̶̟̤̪͊͂ţ̵̤͓̾̓̚͜
You just know he's reliving that debate with Zizek every day in the shower
lmao 3 years after Zizek asked the question, he rushes to his desk to write 'Angela Davis' on a single tweet.
Funnily enough he didn't write his name. Wonder why.
Zizek in that debate denied being a Marxist, instead calling himself more influenced by Hegel and Lacan. So that's probably too complicated for Jordy Petey to even consider, so he just doesn't mention Zizek I guess
JBP :solidarity: Mormons
"POC are descended from Cain"Awesome, dude, great job :admiral-biederman:
Edit: I just finished reading that, and turns out that Southern Baptists believed that heaven was segregated :jesus-christ:
Edit: I just finished reading that, and turns out that Southern Baptists believed that heaven was segregated
gotta keep making up whacky shit to justify your positively un-Christ-like behavior.
also it's massive :cope: since the idea that one would have to live with the people one enslaves in heaven deeply unsettles the :lmayo:
which is funny, since obviously enslaving people is the kind of shit that would get you sent to hell.
this is literally just words. this has zero coherency. synapses died for this post to be conjured.
If I ever teach a linguistics course I might start using Peterson tweets as examples of stuff that's syntactically correct but semantically meaningless.
even then you just go back to his original speeches where he was saying nothing except for the instances where he was called out for saying nothing or someone tried to clarify his meaning
The understanding that ideological structures serve a significant role in perpetuating the exploitation of exploited classes.
And a shit-ton of acid.
No, I just read and can actually answer the question. He's not wrong that there are a number of Marxist or Marxism-Adjacent scholars among the so-called "postmodernists". Really, it isn't a coherent category, of course, but if you look at the authors he lists there, you can absolutely find the elements of ideology, misconstruction of class antagonisms, and their role in the perpetuation of exploitation to unify them. Admittedly, at the edges (Crenshaw, in particular), that gets a lot more abstract, but Peterson's problem is that he doesn't understand the work of any of those people and doesn't want to, not that he's misidentified their adjacency to or direct focus on Marxist theory or the tendency to put the meaningless label "postmodernism" on their work.
Edit: And there's a lot of people who are neither postmodernists nor in any way Marxist on that list, too. Guess I should probably say that, as well.
Really, it isn’t a coherent category, of course, but if you look at the authors he lists there, you can absolutely find the elements of ideology, misconstruction of class antagonisms, and their role in the perpetuation of exploitation to unify them.
To add: a large part of what he passes for "advice" (ideology would be far too generous in my opinion) is based on two principles, which are actually one derived from the other:
- individual responsibility and exerting power over one's own 'sphere of influence' are the only explanations for any and all human interactions and activity. The individual stands at the center of a chaotic universe, and is the only way through which said universe is able to bring order into it.
- systemic oppression and the individuals/structures that uphold it aren't real, since only individuals and their choices are what can materially affect their own lives.
This means that any person who has identified or analyzed the role of systems and structures over human agency and society is a Marxist, because they deny the might of individual action, and -according to Peterson- offload all responsibility onto the "better" individuals. When systems and contexts are incapable of restricting human agency, then any conclusion to the contrary must be made out of envy.
By that logic, even philosophers predating Marx are Marxists.
I've only heard of two philosophers who personally identified as postmodernists: Rorty and Baudrillard. It's almost always an external label applied to philosophers who will claim to operate in a more defined tradition. Like half the Frankfurt school just called themselves Marxists.
I have no academic training in philosophy and I am in no way pompous enough to claim the title of organic intellectual. I just read.
Probably more useful than having to parse meaning out of often unnecessarily difficult to read prose, tbh.
Peterson believes communists did a switcheroo some time in the late 1950s by trading a Marxist framework of class exploitation for one of more vague oppression in general. So he regards anything discussing oppression, systemic racism, systemic homophobia etc as nefarious Marxists in disguise who will force communal toothbrushes on us all.
Except he believes oppression against white male incels through messages hidden in the content of Disney movies is completely real and worthy of discussion.
trading a Marxist framework of class exploitation for one of more vague oppression in general.
Well, isn't that basically what happened? The professors dropped the "we're for the working class" thing and found a new audience. The working class had failed to rise up and overthrow the bourgeoisie because they preferred treats to revolution. That's where the "deplorables" class-based slur came from and why it was so widely applauded.
Marxists didn’t “do a switcheroo” but rather got co-opted after having to distance themselves from Stalin. Things like Foucault and the other libs here (New Left) introducing concepts such as “PMC” that are “the middle class but engaged in cultural production” and mixing up material class status and the fluctuating function of that class at any particular time muddied the water and give us the intractable sludge we find ourselves with today.
In much of this, don't they have a point? The world the older Marxists have made for us has a rotten underbelly. How could they tolerate US police routinely killing innocent black people? How could they ignore Harvey Weinstein and other sexual abusers? It's why so large a fraction of working class voters generally backed Trump; it's also because Trump saw this from the beginning, and aimed his campaign squarely at the working class vote.
And when this happens, Marxist revolutionaries inevitably rush in saying, in effect, “No, no, you shouldn't settle for plenty of full time jobs at a living wage, you should die by the tens of thousands in an orgy of revolutionary violence so that we can seize power in your name.” Readers are welcome to imagine the response of the American working class to this sort of rhetoric.
And that's why they got dumped by the roadside. They were given a clear choice to make and chose the capitalists.
You've got an odd view of how neoliberalism came into being and you've framed working class ideology as a rational choice most people have made, rather than a response to the circumstances they've found themselves within.
There were American working class uprisings and nationwide unionizing efforts. There were violent revolutions. Those efforts weren't broken up by offering full time jobs and a living wage. In fact, those wages, weekends, and 40 hours were the victories the uprisings achieved. Much of them happened over 100 years ago, so I do understand they've kind of faded to the background of American history. Bloody Harlan, the Pullman Strike, various skirmishes around the Midwest, and most of all the Battle of Blair mountain in 1921, where 30,000 cops and soldiers were sent to arrest striking miners in Virginia. Afterwards with the coordination of power among federal law enforcement agencies, the creation of the FBI, and increased police funding nationwide, any sort of worker movement was put on the back foot and have remained there ever since. Union membership has dramatically declined since the 1970s, and at one point 10% of CPUSA members were FBI informants.
Most working class Americans now are either too beaten down to care, are professional managerial class, or they're some odd combination of worker with a petite bourgeois mindset with home ownership acting as a mental substitute for business ownership. Of course they won't listen to Marxists, they're either beaten down to the point they don't believe anything better is possible, or they've convinced themselves their mortgage and 401k gives them skin in the game.
Professors with new, more vague rhetoric about oppression were an adaption to the boundaries of acceptable rhetoric and were by and large a way to express a more or less liberal worldview using some language adapted from Marxism.
:jesse-wtf:
Where are these Marxists signing off on class traitors’ violence against black people? :angela:
Where are these Marxists signing off on capitalist exploitation and rape of women’s bodies? :rosa:
The world the older Marxists “made” is rotten because they made insufficient progress in eradicating those elements of capitalism. Liberal approaches to addressing these issues are not the only way to go about addressing them, and in fact you can watch their progress across the board stagnate as the USSR collapsed and the need for concession to workers vanished.
Plenty of full time jobs at a living wage??
Where are these Marxists signing off on capitalist exploitation and rape of women’s bodies?
At the World Socialist Web Site
How could they tolerate US police routinely killing innocent black people?
They didn't. The communist organized labor unions were at the forefront of black belt organizing and anti-lynching campaigns. That's not to say there weren't also class reductionist elements in leadership or weird essentialist notions of "the negro nation" or whatever.
Also, wasn't the Weinstein thing like, just WSWS?
So... One Marxist and a bunch of libs? All animated by the Spirit of Cain? Truly the political philosopher king the west has been awaiting
No, no. I only consider the intellectual contributions of the purest Marxists who ever marxed so that I, the ultimate Marxist will Marx better than them /s
one Marxist and a bunch of libs? that sounds a lot like :hexbear-retro:
There's me, and all other users. This is the true contradiction within the interpersonal relationships that form our society.
She was in a miliue with a lot of Marxists, and used a marxist class analysis, but never went beyond calling for robust social democracy, so... it's complicated?
bell hooks might have been a social democrat, but she was an anti-imperialist and it's her framework of the relationship between white supremacy, patriarchy and capitalism that a lot of communists use now, so I think it's really unfair to call her a liberal. Like, if anti-imperialist social democrats are libs I've got some news for you about Castro lol.
At least malkavians get an insight into truth they’re just incapable at conveying it, Peterson is just incoherently psychobabbling
Well, this one probably won't get anyone killed in Chechnya, anyway...
This is a decent summary . While it is probably exaggerating to say that it actively got anyone killed, I was told there was also an attempt to use the claims in the text to suggest that this was all a conspiracy theory, which comes dangerously close to enabling what would probably have happened anyway.
The latest edition of VTM was written and overseen by former members of the notoriously stupidly edgy Larper community. As a result in the core rulebook they claimed that the real life pogrom against LGBT folk in Chechnya was in fact, a cover up over it being about vampires.
Paradox (who now owns the company that prints VTM) instantly went scorched earth and pulled all the copies of the new rule set and fired everyone
My dad is eating an all-meat diet on the advice of this overgrown homunculus.
Ah you fools, you believed problems in the world were created by a coalition of capitalists and the repressive state apparatus? Absolute nonsense.
The true agents of evil in the world are a scattered collection of tweed coat liberal arts professors with a combined net worth of $300k and also some of them died decades ago. The most evil of all being the bald turtleneck guy who used the word archeology in a silly way.
Also they're Satanic witches or something
Here's a list of people I think are bad and they're bad because they're possessed by satan or something :specter: Now stop accusing me of not making any sense
Also Foucault is so scary he had to be on the list twice.
Foucault is kinda scary. Dude wrote very weirdly.
ah, now it all makes sense. postmodern neo marxists are just clan brujah.
That one pub in VTM:B, except all the anarchs are arguing over critical theory.
What does "Willingness to be animated by the spirit of Cain" mean? Like they are anti-Christ or something?
Jordan Peterson apparently played a bunch of Vampire: The Masquerade and the lore is leaking into the rest of his brain.
The fucker is to stupid to even compare them to the leftist vampires
Ironically smiling Jack’s better future quote is exactly what Peterson and his ilk think ANTIFA is.
(Also Nines did absolutely nothing wrong. Change my mind libs)
you're asking for sensible explanations out of a walking mass of prions
In Christianity, Cain is the first murderer, cursed by god to bear the mark of a murderer and for all his descendants to bear that mark as well. Some American protestants, including famously the Mormons, believe that being black is the mark of Cain.
So JP listing a bunch of black academics and claiming they're animated by Cain isn't just calling them evil, it's being racist.
looking around at everything happening and thinking “everything would be fine if only bell hooks didn’t control the world”
bell hooks writing some poems as the demonic form of Marx himself rises out of her quill pen
"Cain had a point, but he WENT TOO FAR just like in my capeshit!" :so-true:
Guy who has only seen Black Panther when reading the Book of Genesis: "Getting a lot of Killmonger vibes from this Cain fellow"
I suppose Peterson just means ‘the spirit of Cain’ to be jealousy or some shit though
It's definitely also a racist dog whistle.
Idea: one of those trashy ghosthunter shows except whenever the ghosthunters pretend a ghost is around they scream about the spirit of Cain.
