I hope everyone had a great week! Hang out. Chat. Talk about what's going on. Have fun :3

  • Cromalin [she/her]M
    ·
    5 months ago
    i like talking books!

    now i still haven't read nevada, BUT i do have some knowledge on (some permutations of) this discourse. i could definitely see this being an intentional she's an asshole thing, but it's not unheard of for trans women to have problems with this sort of thing. this specifically reads as truscum rhetoric (especially given it sitting right next to "how do i get hormones" which kinda frames hrt and medical transition as the good trans and genderqueer afab people as the bad ones) but even outside truscum spaces there are some transfem people who are very bitter about transmisogyny and lash out at trans people who they see as more privileged (the bitterness isn't unjustified but obviously taking it out on other trans people like that is) and who are viewed as perpetuating transmisogyny (which many tme people do but like, that doesn't make them not trans)

    one specific complaint is that these genderqueer afab people are often just seen as women by society at large and therefore don't have to face the level of transphobia of more binary trans people, especially trans women. ti ve clear this is bullshit, genderqueer identities being seen as just quirky women is itself pretty self evidently transphobia. while i am not entirely unsympathetic to some of the things that lead to this line of thinking (there are obviously some genderqueer people who enact transmisogyny, even if there are obviously way more cis people who do) it is still incredibly harmful and any transmisogyny in tme trans spaces can and must be addressed in ways that do not invalidate other people's transness. the term "theyfab" (which i don't like and think is bad) is used by some in this context. sometimes it's to make a specific point about, for example, spaces that exclude amab trans people but welcome afab trans people (a real problem! still doesn't justify what feels to me like tacit misgendering) but sometimes it's just a derogatory way to talk about the group and implicitly deny their transness

    anyways that's where i feel like this is coming from. obviously cannot promise this is specifically what's going on, and im very tired so i might be missing something or communicating poorly. lotta discourse, im not an expert, but that's the vibes i get. hope this was helpful, im going to sleep now so if it wasn't i can't help

    • ashinadash [she/her]
      ·
      edit-2
      5 months ago
      aw yiss!!!

      Yes, that was my instant assumption too. It reads very similarly to "just woman-lite" arguments used against nonbinary people. It's sickeningly ironic in this case because Orange Book Bad references Bornstein and Serano, it's how I was introduced to Gender Outlaw and Whipping Girl, so it's not like the author is unaware? Which, I don't really desire to CANCEL IMOGEN BINNIE or whatever, the trouble is that Maria Griffiths kind of seems like a self insert in many ways, oops. It blows me away that a binary trans person could see genders outside the binary as being privileged, lol. The main reason I lean away from the theoretical "It's deliberate, it's about how Maria is an asshole!" argument is that for pretty much every other bit of blogosphere-quasi-lecturing-narration, Maria says very agreeable stuff and it seems like the reader is meant to agree so Idk.

      Even if it were true that gq afab people were "just seen as women by society" that would not make them exempt from transphobia and discrimination anyway, yes!!!! You know what though, Nevada does have a lil passage about spaces that allow afab trans people but not amab:

      God no, Maria says. Are you kidding? How am I going to do that, and how am I going to do that with my junk the way it is, and anyway: bio-cock.

      Piranha spends a lot of her time reading the Internet, so she’s super up on, like, everything. She probably doesn’t go to sex parties, although Maria hasn’t asked. But she’s talked a lot about this thing where there are lesbian sex parties that happen in the city and how they will often have No Bio-Cock Policies, meaning, No Trans Women. Or, optimistically, Trans Women: Keep Your Pants On. Meanwhile trans guys are welcome to brandish whatever cocks they want. Kind of frustrating, kind of problematic, and deeply representative of Maria’s own issues with her junk—even if she’s never actually had a partner who had issues around it. The term bio-cock has become shorthand for the fact that trans women aren’t sexually welcome in any communities anywhere.

      Of course the text is sort of unrelentingly shitty about it, and also I have never heard the term which is probably a gen x thing, so that's a funny thing. Nevada is not a book that's kind to other trans people (JUST WAIT TILL YOU HEAR ABOUT ITS TAKES ON TRANS MEN!) and it's probably the aspect of it I hate the most. This is kinda like the primordial roots of the Bad Discourse that led to TME/TMA being adopted to start!

      Sorry to hear that ur tired (sleep! sleep is good!) but I greatly appreciate the insight, you have connected a few dots in my brain I think. The more I look at this, the less there seems to be plausible deniability - or even if it's an intentional show of the protagonist being shitty, it's kind of going too far with it. Like, if the reader was not interested in hearing Maria's ridiculous stream of consciousness after this, I would not blame them in the slightest. Of course I have brainrot anyway, so shrug-outta-hecks but very good stuff.

      • good_girl [she/her, they/them]
        ·
        edit-2
        5 months ago
        book talk lets gooooo

        I think this specific issue with Nevada is very emblematic of Imogen Binnie's brand of trans feminism (at least at the time, I can't remember if it's addressed in the second edition's afterword). The book is very white and very american, and Maria is shown to be relatively privileged. It's to the point where I don't fault anyone for not being able to read, enjoy, or relate to it for reasons past the blogpost narration.

        the trouble is that Maria Griffiths kind of seems like a self insert in many ways, oops. It blows me away that a binary trans person could see genders outside the binary as being privileged, lol. The main reason I lean away from the theoretical "It's deliberate, it's about how Maria is an asshole!" argument is that for pretty much every other bit of blogosphere-quasi-lecturing-narration, Maria says very agreeable stuff and it seems like the reader is meant to agree so Idk.

        I do kinda get that feeling of Maria being a self-insert in many ways which kinda taints the book a bit. However I also see Maria as a great example of "bad representation" in that while her character embodies some important parts of the trans experience, she's still a somewhat problematic and messy individual who exemplifies the parts of the trans experience that aren't spotlighted anywhere else. Whether it's intentional or not is definitely arguable and it definitely wasn't necessary to tell the story Imogen Binnie wanted to write, but I think that it could also just a product of the time it was written in.

        Wow, I should post literal Nevada quotes online more often. This is fun!!

        yea

        • ashinadash [she/her]
          ·
          edit-2
          5 months ago
          ayooooo!!

          Yes indeed, Nevada is a 0 intersectionalism text, which is deeply annoying since it's half a cultural touchstone. It's weird too because a few times Maria does point out stuff like say, getting the benefit of the doubt for being tall, white and attractive, but it's kind of nothing more than lipservice when shit like the above is being said too. I actually dunno how much I could recommend it anymore tbh...

          She works the same job that Imogen Binnie did, the Camp Trans/Michigan Womyns Festival shit is definitely a Binnie thing 'cause iirc she met some Topside writers there irl, I have always considered her to be a mouthpiece. You are right though about the "bad representation" thing, and I think that's why Nevada has such staying power. (with me, at least, lmao) Maria sucks so bad and I love her, I never get tired of seeing her total all of her relationships and fuck everything up 'cause she's all messed up and sad niko-tear-wipe the abrasiveness is part of the appeal, right?

          I just kinda feel like the shit she says about genderqueer people and trans men are over the line, from "messy and problematic" to "divisive wrecker", I guess. I have seen it put people off once or twice, and I'm not convinced the book would not be improved if you just cut this bs about trans men "taking up space from trans women" and whatever.

          Also it's weird because Nevada being big means that a lot of subsequently influenced trans fiction (Detransition Baby, Tell Me I'm Worthless, Manhunt) lean into the whole, gen-x-transfemme-who-browsed-fictionmania thing a lot, which I think is a bit quaint to most people now. It's definitely unique!

          yea

          Actually unironically, if I'd known this was gonna go so well I would have aired my grievances with Nevada way sooner. This thread is great & everyone in it is lovely Care-Comrade

          • khizuo [ze/zir]
            ·
            5 months ago
            my two cents i guess

            as a tme trans person with some passing familiarity in this discourse i don’t feel particularly offended by these kinds of comments because I know that because of transmisogyny i have structural privilege over tma trans people. so a transfemme making a snarky comment about trans men or afab gq people, even if it dips into some unideal “invalidating gender” territory, isn’t nearly on the same level as the violent transmisogyny that gets perpetrated from those groups.

            i’ve yet to read whipping girl which is on my reading list but i think serano discusses the divide between tme/tma trans people a bit too. ultimately i think it’s more important for us tme trans people to deal with transmisogyny in our communities first, because these kinds of comments are just a reaction to the dynamics of unrecognized privilege and violent exclusion in these transmisogynistic trans spaces. idk, just my thoughts though and i don’t want to invalidate your experience with nevada especially as I haven’t read it.

            • ashinadash [she/her]
              ·
              5 months ago
              lfg!!!

              Hi, I welcome any thoughts on this subject!

              I'm glad at least to see that the quotes aren't that offensive to their targets, lol. I agree that it's nothing like the violent transmisogyny we experience, to me I guess it's about yet more divisive shit in the trans community, and also maybe that anger could be directed at dogshit cis people who commit the vast majority of that violent transmisogyny, instead of our comrades? It seems kind of bastardy to be bitterly invalidating people's genders instead? Down with cis? Just spitballing, Idk. I don't disagree with your comment overall, I appreciate the alternate view actually. Doesn't invalidate my experience :)

              Man I still gotta read Whipping Girl, look at me being a genderlib and not reading theory!

              • good_girl [she/her, they/them]
                ·
                edit-2
                5 months ago
                more book more book

                Oh! I just remembered!

                These last two comments reminded me about a specific part of Whipping Girl that I think can elaborate a bit on the kind of thinking that informed Imogen Binnie and possibly led to these views.

                In the last chapter of Whipping Girl, Serano touches on the topic of subversivism within the feminist movements of the time (90s to the early 10's).

                There's quite a bit more than what I've put below, but I remember feeling conflicted when I first finished this chapter. Obviously today definitions have changed and the idea of political lesbians and genderqueer identities has shifted. I wanted to understand more after finishing the book in regards to this topic but the trans spaces I looked in were severely lacking in even basic transmisogyny discussion, so I had no hope of finding more on it.

                Passages attached

                The practice of subversivism also negatively impacts trans people on the MTF spectrum. After all, in our culture, the meanings of “bold,” “rebellious,” and “dangerous”—adjectives that often come to mind when considering subversiveness—are practically built into our understanding of masculinity. In contrast, femininity conjures up antonyms like “timid,” “conventional,” and “safe,” which seem entirely incompatible with subversion. Therefore, despite the fact that the mainstream public tends to be more concerned and disturbed by MTF spectrum trans people than their FTM spectrum counterparts, subversivism creates the impression that trans masculinities are inherently “subversive” and “transgressive,” while their trans feminine counterparts are “lame” and “conservative” in comparison. Subversivism’s privileging of trans masculinities over trans femininities helps to explain why cissexual queer women and FTM spectrum folks tend to dominate the queer/trans community: Their exceptional gender expressions and identities are routinely empowered and encouraged in such settings. In contrast, there is generally a dearth of MTF spectrum folks who regularly inhabit queer/trans spaces.

                To me, the most surreal part of this whole transgressingversus-reinforcing- gender-norms dialogue in the queer/trans community (and in many gender studies classrooms and books) is the unacknowledged hypocrisy of it all. It is sadly ironic that people who claim to be gender-fucking in the name of “shattering the gender binary,” and who criticize people whose identities fail to adequately challenge our societal notions of femaleness and maleness, cannot see that they have just created a new gender binary, one in which subversive genders are “good” and conservative genders are “bad.” In a sense, this new gender binary isn’t even all that new. It is merely the original oppositional sexist binary flipped upside down. So now, gender- nonconforming folks are on top and gender-normative people are on the bottom —how revolutionary! Now, I understand the temptation for a marginalized group to turn the hierarchy that has oppressed them upside down, as it can feel very empowering to finally be atop the pecking order, but it’s absurd to claim that such approaches in any way undermine that binary. If anything, they only serve to reinforce it further.


                I believe that if the transgender movement had simply continued to view itself as an alliance of disparate groups working toward a shared goal (like making the world safer for gender-variant folks), it may have avoided such exclusivity while respecting the distinct differences and specific concerns of its various constituents. Instead, by promoting the idea that we must move beyond the supposedly outdated concept of “identity,” the transgender movement has created its own sense of “oneness.” Rather than viewing ourselves as a fragile political coalition of distinct subgroups, some activists instead encourage us to see ourselves as one big homogeneous group of individuals who blur gender boundaries. Rather than learning to respect the very different perspectives and experiences that each transgender subgroup brings to the table, the transgender community has instead become a sort of gender free-for-all, where identities are regularly co-opted by others within the community. These days, many transs*xuals assume that they have the right to appropriate the language of, or speak on behalf of, intersex people; similarly, many cissexual genderqueers feel they have the right to do the same for transs*xuals. This needlessly erases each group’s unique issues, obstacles, and perspectives.

                This sort of “gender anarchy”—where individuals are free to adopt or appropriate any identity as they please—might seem very limitless and freeing on the surface, but in practice it resembles gender-libertarianism, where those who are most marginalized become even more vulnerable to the whims of those who are more established. In this case, it leaves those of us who are cross-gender-identified susceptible to negation at the hands of the greater cissexual queer community. Indeed, it has become increasingly common for people who are primarily queer because of their sexual orientation to claim a space for themselves within the transgender movement.7 This is particularly true in the queer women’s community, which has become increasingly involved in transgender politics and discourses due to the recent sharp increase in the number of (1) previously lesbian-identified people transitioning to male, (2) dykes who now take on genderqueer or other FTM spectrum identities, and (3) non-trans queer women who seek a voice in the transgender community because they are partnered to FTM spectrum individuals.

                Because of our history, the fact that cissexual queers now dominate transgender and queer/trans communities and discourses is highly problematic for those of us who are transs*xual.

                • ashinadash [she/her]
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  5 months ago
                  Unending bookposting!

                  Oooooh look at this ✨ holy shit it's incredible... You know...

                  subversivism creates the impression that trans masculinities are inherently “subversive” and “transgressive,” while their trans feminine counterparts are “lame” and “conservative” in comparison.

                  Now I think about it, Kieran and Maria kind of play this silly dichotomy out exactly, that must be intentional I suppose. But yes, I can see the whole-ass roots of Nevada's weirdo takes right here, I feel like I put on the shades from They Live glasses-on this is fuckin awesome. Take a shot every time bad actors in the trans community recreate a gender binary. I know what "oppositional sexism" is! Kinda scuffed, again, claiming that non-binary gender identities are "on top", like even just today I've watched a nonbinary person get conversationally trodden upon by binary trans women, what horseshit.

                  I do actually find it kind of fascinating that Serano takes it back to queer unity though, that's very interesting. But uh

                  These days, many transs*xuals assume that they have the right to appropriate the language of, or speak on behalf of, intersex people; similarly, many cissexual genderqueers feel they have the right to do the same for transs*xuals. This needlessly erases each group’s unique issues, obstacles, and perspectives.

                  What does this mean, lol. Please do not tell me that cissies have been stealing our language behind my back??? I beg of you... "Gender libertarianism" is fucking hilarious though. But this whole thing is fascinating, dang. I have been enlightened, and it turns out the solution was just to read theory all along!!! It almost reads like Maria misread Whipping Girl now, lol

                  • good_girl [she/her, they/them]
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    5 months ago
                    no gender-libs

                    These days, many transs*xuals assume that they have the right to appropriate the language of, or speak on behalf of, intersex people; similarly, many cissexual genderqueers feel they have the right to do the same for transs*xuals. This needlessly erases each group’s unique issues, obstacles, and perspectives.

                    So this is one of those parts that Serano intentionally left unchanged in later editions and Whipping Girl's age becomes apparent again. Serano herself, and from what I gather- queer activism of the time, made the distinction between Transgender and MTF identities (MTF being anyone born male that displays exceptional feminine traits, qualities, or behaviors but can identify as their assigned gender or otherwise. Transgender being anybody who displays exceptional cross-gender traits, qualities, or behaviors but can identify as their assigned gender or otherwise) and Transs*xuals. (Essentially what we acknowledge today as transgender, meaning someone who identifies with a gender that's incongruent with their assigned gender.)

                    I'll attach a passage at the end where she goes into it a bit as well.

                    In this passage Serano is saying that cissexual genderqueers (meaning cissexuals who identify as genderqueer due to politics or potentially people who do not feel within the gender binary but also do not identify with transs*xuals.) had a tendency to speak for trans individuals while not entirely being affected by the same societal systems and pressures.

                    I feel like I explained it badly but the messiness is a product of the age of the text I think.

                    also i'll just attach a link to the book to make it easier to look up if you need to.

                    passage

                    Now that we understand “sex” and “gender,” we can begin to consider the word transgender, which is perhaps one of the most confusing and misunderstood words in the English language. While the word originally had a more narrow definition, since the 1990s it has been used primarily as an umbrella term to describe those who defy societal expectations and assumptions regarding femaleness and maleness; this includes people who are transs*xual (those who live as members of the sex other than the one they were assigned at birth), intersex (those who are born with a reproductive or sexual anatomy that does not fit the typical definitions of female or male), and genderqueer (those who identity outside of the male/female binary), as well as those whose gender expression differs from their anatomical or perceived sex (including crossdressers, drag performers, masculine women, feminine men, and so on). I will also sometimes use the synonymous term gender-variant to describe all people who are considered by others to deviate from societal norms of femaleness and maleness. The far-reaching inclusiveness of the word “transgender” was purposely designed to accommodate the many gender and sexual minorities who were excluded from the previous feminist and gay rights movements. At the same time, its broadness can be highly problematic in that it often blurs or erases the distinctiveness of its constituents. For example, while male crossdressers and transs*xual men are both male-identified transgender people, these groups face a very different set of issues with regards to managing their gender difference. Similarly, drag queens and transs*xual women generally have very different experiences and perspectives regarding gender, despite the fact that they are often confused with one another by mainstream society.

                    • ashinadash [she/her]
                      ·
                      5 months ago
                      haha...

                      ...okay that's really strange, huh. That's not a definition I've ever heard of in my life and it doesn't make any sense to me, not a word of it. So needlessly complicated and weird, thank fuck I was not on trans internet in 2007 because wtf.

                      I see, are there really "political genderqueers"? Huh, now I don't understand anything anymore blob-no-thoughts

                      Is... the entire book steeped in ridiculous crusty terminology like this? A crisis, I wonder if I read Gender Outlaw wrong by not having this bizarro definition of "transgender" in mind. Maybe I am a lib.

                      • good_girl [she/her, they/them]
                        ·
                        5 months ago
                        spoiler

                        I see, are there really "political genderqueers"?

                        I imagine that there were at the time in the same way there were political lesbians. Their existence would connect back with subversivism and the desire to 'break the gender binary'.

                        Is... the entire book steeped in ridiculous crusty terminology like this?

                        Unfortunately it's definitely spread throughout the book, but Serano does well to front-load the definitions. She goes into it a bit in the 2nd editions preface.

                        While the major themes that I forward in Whipping Girl remain just as vital and relevant today as they were when I was first writing the book, some of the specific descriptions and details will surely seem increasingly dated as time marches on. So in this preface to the second edition, I want to place the book in historical context, as it most certainly was a reaction to what was happening in society, and within activist and academic circles, during the early-to-mid aughts (or “the zeros,” as I prefer to call the first decade of this millennium). While a decade is not a huge amount of time in the grand scheme of things, it certainly feels like a lifetime ago when it comes to public understandings and discussions about transgender people.

                        http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2016/04/excerpt-from-whipping-girl-second.html

                        • ashinadash [she/her]
                          ·
                          5 months ago
                          spoiler

                          I'll make sure to snag the second edition then, huh... these weirdo definitions are all new to me.

                          • good_girl [she/her, they/them]
                            ·
                            edit-2
                            5 months ago
                            spoiler

                            There's actually a third edition now! It just came out last month and she included an extended afterword where she goes into the "basic biology" argument as well as the topic of "trans grooming."

                            • ashinadash [she/her]
                              ·
                              5 months ago
                              spoiler

                              Oh awesome, very nice, an update for new kinds of suck!