Permanently Deleted
Well, to you maybe, and maybe even to most people
Okay, no reason to change then.
There are plenty of long arguments that go nowhere and get ugly on forums that don't have an upvote system. That's the nature of the internet.
With them, there’s actual psychological pressure to try to “convince” people.
There is NOTHING about an upvote system that changes that.
Upvotes are literally designed to gamify interaction increasing engagement. Any attempts to gamify social interaction are objectively bad and we can definitely think of better ways to interact than the ghouls that design capitalist social media.
This website doesn't even have a block feature, something that should be a basic safety feature and should have been out on release, and you think its designers can think of something better than upvotes?
actually we shouldnt talk about improving the site in any way wanting things to be different is being presumptuous
no more upbears, but bring back downbears. in this world, there is only War
Brain make happy hormones when I can see people appreciated my dumb one liner :blob-no-thoughts:
I will appreciate the dumb one liners as tim berners lee intended: by sending an email to your personal account with the subject line LAUGHING OUT LOUD and a too-close front camera selfie of me laughing in the body.
The alternatives are:
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post recency - all discussion is blasted into oblivion by the speed of posting
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thread activity - struggle sessions and flamebait float to the top. Hexbear launched with a heavily activity-based metric and had to get rid of it, as it hemorrhaged users who couldn't handle a front page of multi-day flame threads
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most recent post withing thread - just a noisy proxy of thread activity
how about oldest post at the top, no threading, inline quotes. We did this for decades, and it worked.
We did this for decades, and it worked.
The format only works for single conversations on single topics. It falls apart once you have people discussing several things on one post. It would fundamentally change the website.
i feel nauseous. i can't believe you would say such a thing. my god.
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im still in the habit of upbearing everything i see tbh, passing out the bear dopamine
it's both a joke and a sincere response, i upvoted your comment and am also being meta :cool-bean:
edit: i also just upvoted your confusion, try and stop me from supporting my comrades
We haven't removed downbears. There's a few users that go around replying to things they don't like with :downbear: , which is functionally the same thing.
Commenting moves a post up in the algorithm. It doesn't matter what you comment. Comments are more power than even upvoting. A comment is like a super upvote. People who comment on threads that they don't like are having the opposite effect. Users should ignore posts that they don't like and report posts that break the rules
It's not about "the algorithm" or comment points. It's intentionally hostile and goes against why downbears were removed in the first place. A "Super upvote" doesn't matter when it's kicking off a fight in the comments.
It's different from a downbear because the user has to attach their name to it.
It's different because its even larger than the downbear that was removed.
I was joking, but I think it's pretty rude that you're out here complaining about hostility and then replying to my sincere comment ("It’s different from a downbear because the user has to attach their name to it.") with ("Yeah it’s even larger than the one that was removed.").
I prematurely hit post and edited the remainder in a few seconds later, so I assume your browser probably didn't update before you replied.
You edited your comment while I was replying.
EDIT: and for that matter, please don't act upset about my replying to you when your initial response was belittling.
Just realized this thread isn't worth getting worked up about. Have a good day.
Sorry if I bothered you here, by the way. I really didn't mean for this to be that confrontational.
:stalin-approval: It's all good. I can definitely see how my comment with the spoiler would have been pretty annoying.
No, the downbear emote is different because someone has to own up to the downbear. Compare that to a bunch of sniveling R*dditors mass downvoting your posts but too cowardly to comment on them.
Well, the current implementation is imperfect, which is why the upbears need to be scrapped as well.
I'm not sure that upbeats should be scrapped. I'm just saying that, functionally, downbears aren't gone.
There is a fundamental difference. You have to attach a username to your :downbear: and your :downbear: can, itself, be ratioed. Which is far healthier than the invisible anonymous downbears
One person has to attach a username. Everyone else who upvotes that emoji does not. Fundamentally, what is the difference between 24 people downbearing something vs 23 people upbearing a :downbear: ?
There's always the "Sort comments within a thread by age, sort threads by most recent comment's age" approach, which in the pre-Reddit era was so ubiquitous that alternatives to it almost weren't worth discussing.
Please please please hexbear as an oldnet forum would be amazing. Only way you can have long form conversation about topics on the internet that can span years. I just wish there was a way to design threads to not disappear posts when they span hundreds of thousands of them in a thread
In-depth conversation shouldn't be the only option. With people I'm in the same room as, sometimes a smile or a nod is the only necessary response. I see upbears as being in that category of response—a simple positive acknowledgement—and vastly prefer it to a series of “This”es. I do not see smiles and nods as manipulative (usually), and disagree that upbears must always be so.
If you want to post long comments, then go ahead. I remember your username from some good comments the other day—that, yes, I gave upbears to—so I'm sure those comments will be read. You seem bothered that people who "just want to laugh" won't read them, but do you really believe that what's stopping them is upbears? You can't please all of the people all of the time, or have them agree wholeheartedly. Differences are good.
I can see that a method for hiding such numbers from users who dislike them could be useful, but you should be aware that there may be other users who find value in an approval system beyond needy gaming or an addiction to popularity.
I really do not think upbears remove the ability to have in-depth conversations, but they are a friendly reminder that there are other people interacting even if they aren't actively conversing.
You might not think it friendly, but I do.
Do you really think that I don't have a basis for giving upbears? Are you really trying to insult my motives, or are you just not thinking about why I think something?
The most upbeared comments I've seen have been on long, incredibly educating posts, so I think your sampling method may be biased.
And what the hell is wrong with "expressing vague approval"? Should every one of our interactions be dour, interminable discussions?
Assuming hostility from everyone and everything is pretty corrosive to actual discussion too.
And how, exactly, do upbears "enforce" a posting style hostile to non-cynical discussion? You keep making this assertion but, if it were actually true, there'd be nothing else here. That isn't the case, though, is it?
[T]he problem with upbears is that you don’t have to express [your reasons for them].
Why should we be forced to? When I smile in response to someone, it'd be quite strange to then explain my reasons for doing so.
I also don’t get the chance to express my own thoughts.
Who is stopping you? Not anyone here.
I think it is telling that most arguments against removing them have been short and lacking any real basis or reason.
Lacking any real basis or reason? Really?
If I do not have the upbears how will I know how well my joke landed
I like the upbears they're decent comedy feedback
its easier to click button to :mao-clap: than make a whole coment. it'd cause bloat when folks are just riffing and not necessarily discussing stuff. if you make a good joke i want you to know but threads shouldn't be stuffed with people just saying 'lol' under a good joke, at least under the format regime we've got now
It is absolutely necessary for people to express a positive interaction when someone makes a joke. That's how jokes work: you tell a joke and it makes other people laugh which is an auditory signal that what you've said made other people happy, which in turn makes you happy. Its a mutually beneficial interaction. We cant hear other people laugh through the internet, so we need another way to positively interact with humor, thats the point of upvotes.
Getting 50 upvotes on a post feels good, getting 50 comments of just "lol" would not. Its really that simple.
Honestly yes. If this is such a big deal to you that it legitimately upsets you then you should find another site to use rather than trying to force everyone else to accept a change that they do not want.
Maybe if the admins could make visible votes an option you could turn off, would that be a better solution? Anyone who doesnt want to see them could simply choose to do so.
And as to the algorithm you can always choose to sort by new or old. Sorting by Top, Hot, and Active are already optional, I dont see why removing them would make anything better.
I'm jumping into this late, but if you don't have time to upbear things, would you then have time to comment on everything that you thought deserved feedback?
Would those things that made you laugh then receive no feedback? If I make a comment or post, and then get no comments or feedback, it makes it seem like nobody is even reading my post. Why would I post again when nobody is reading it?
What? I'm posting here because I want to know that I am having some interaction with people. If I post something and get no comments, that's fine. But I want some way to know that people are at least looking and reading what I wrote.
Not everyone has time to write comments on everything they read here.
It's nice to give someone a 'hey, I read this, it was good' pat on the back. Acknowledge that you saw their post, even if you don't have anything specific to say or ask about it.
I don't think I'm explaining this right, since you aren't really responding to what I'm saying.
It's not about dopamine, it's about whether it's even worth posting if I can't tell if anyone is reading the post.
The point is interaction with people - I don't have hours to spend writing comments to every post I enjoy. Even little comments like your suggested one takes time. It would seem to me that comment number wouldn't go up, but indication that anyone has read posts and comments would not be there any more.
If I wanted to say something that nobody is listening to I could just talk to myself or scream it into the void. If I'm here it's because of providing information to someone, or receiving. Even if that information is just a nod.
I also don't really understand what upbears have to do with post or comment length -- there isn't a link there in my mind. You wouldn't see an increase in interaction on long posts, what you would be enforcing is a decrease of indication of interaction of shorter posts, I guess. If the point is to get more people to read long posts -- well, this isn't a way to do that. You need to create time I think.
I write a lot of long comments. I'm with you on that. If I write something good I want to know, and there should be a mechanism for knowing if I write something bad. I want to be corrected and called out for bad takes. You should also. I come here to learn and have my good takes reinforced and bad takes called out. Currently bad takes are called out by comments. Good takes are agreed on by comments and upbears. Added to. Refined.
Anyway, I don't think we should get rid of them.
It's almost like sometimes people just want to read things and not have to go through the effort of typing out a long reply everytime they want to show that they've read something.
I only have the time to read a couple of long posts and then I have other non-online things I need to get to. The number of thoughtful replies is not going to increase with removing upbears. That would be if I had more time. If there is not a button to click , and I have to type out something thoughtful each time I wanted to interact with something to show someone I read it and it was worth their time typing out, then I would just not do that. I wouldnt be commenting more. Interaction would not increase, and I don't really see how you think people will just magically have more time on their hands by making things more difficult.
Yes, and removing upbears doesnt change that.
How will removing upbears change the amount of time people have?
Thanks. I do think there is an addictive and people pleasing nature to upbears, but even still, I think that the quality and quantity of interaction on longer posts wouldn't be changed. Me upvoting a silly meme doesn't make me any more or less likely to actually provide a thoughtful comment to something that catches my brain.
People can and should sort by new. I always read posts that have few upbears for that reason. I've never even considered that the number of upbears is a measure of the quality of a post. I see it, as you said, as a measure of how many people have read it. I always assume that I am getting to the party early. I never judge other posts by the upbeat number - but I do want a way to see the upbears on my posts to see if people have read them. Maybe part of the issue is with the way posts are ranked?
But, providing a thoughtful comment is still an amount of effort that is not necessarily accessible on large quantities. There is a maximum of comments and discussion possible. I think that there should be levels of engagement, and I share the concern of others in this thread that removal of upbear will lead to pages of "This!" "+1" "Well said" "Agree" etc. In the comments, which frankly would negatively affect the website experience.
I wouldn't be against trying the site out without upbears and seeing how it is. I don't know how the balance between casual interaction that provides acknowledgement of effort and removing the addictive nature would be incorporated.
I'd be fine with that I think. That would address the issue I would have. I would prefer it not in DMs, it could be overwhelming. But hidden upbears, where you can just see your own posts (if you have that enables) I think would work.
Yes get rid of them. Ranking comments is the worst Web 2.0 thing. Return to forum.
This website is actively working towards federating and will reinvent the damn bbs if someone doesn’t pull the brakes.
I fucking hope so. Let's go text-only so the only memes are ASCII memes, too.
I mean, you can effectively view this site through a lenses of recency (new) and activity (active) rather than up-votes if you just select those options for your homepage and when you go in the comments, so idk why we should remove upvotes. Like it's just taking away a way some people like to interact with the site for the arbitrary reason of you/some people not liking it as much.
Like if we really just want to have the site be presented in a way where everyone gets to see it in their preferred sort method (upvotes, new, hot, active), maybe the mods should just incorporate something in everyone's settings that just auto sorts every time by whichever category you choose when you click home and click the comments of a thread. So it just is permanently set that way, with the option to manually change it if desired on said page/post
All of this implies that a meritocratic system of engagement is fundamentally impossible on this site, and in general, which I just don't agree with. There are certainly issues like the ones you just stated that result from social media poisoning our brains and capitalism proliferating anti-social hostility and competitiveness, which have rendered the idea of meritocratic engagement online mostly impossible/heavily rigged toward being unfair, but I like to think this site is pushing back against that and trying to encourage engagement that is the opposite. So to get rid of upvotes, to me, would be to say it's impossible here to, as a community, engage with each other and each others' ideas and support the ones we think have merit (for whatever good faith reason that might be), which is something I guess I just don't want to give up on, as it's a larger ideal I think we should be striving for in all smaller communities, online or not.
Hey I'm just like trying to explain why I thought upbears are ok, but idk I guess I'm not describing it good or am doing it in a way that sounds bad/wrong. I didn't intend to make some stand or ultimate point about forcing people to socialize or something, and if I did I didn't mean to. I want people to just feel safe and welcomed and supported. I really don't care strongly either way about this topic/debate beyond my surface level feelings ideas that I thought i'd share, and didn't seek out to get in an argument or get yelled at. So I guess I'm disingaging or whatever because now I feel bad.
If upbears are removed, I will use the site in exactly the same way as before, except instead of clicking the bear, I will write a new comment or reply that says "+1".
Reactions to GitHub issues were added because before that, threads were becoming unreadable by being slathered in "+1" comments from people who agreed or also had the issue. Collapsing a sea of agreement that doesn't add anything to the reading experience into a single counter is better for the readers.
There are counter-arguments to this, like lowest-denominator content reaching the top of the front page and users obsessing over maximising their account scores, but I think Hexbear successfully avoids these issues with its algorithm. This is one of the only social media sites that I am cognitively able to use. Vote systems on other sites sapped my brain far too much.
I've been a day 1 lurker and I saw the removal of downvotes. That helped the site be more "good faith", I think. I like how it is now.
You have good arguments in the thread, some of which I do individually agree with, but I ultimately think the bears do more good than harm.
Wouldn't that mean most interactions on the site would become negative, if there's no way to show support/agreement with a person's idea?
