Recommend it to G*mers
recommend it simply because it's a great game but don't be surprised when a gamer who doesn't have a surface-level familiarity with marx comes away thinking "wow what a fun quirky game that satirizes all sides"
Most of my friends played like an hour and a half and the general sentiment was “this is pretentious.” :deeper-sadness:
Increasingly convinced that the only way to make games with good stories is to make it a book. If the final product doesn't look like a visual novel or some ancient CRPG, you're doing it wrong.
The less direct gameplay agency you give the player the more freedom you have in not having to accommodate what is essentially a main character who can and will do anything.
It's possible to make a game with lots of action and shit that has a well written story, but fundamentally it's gonna have to be shaped around the actually existing great man that is the player character.
If Disco Elysium had the combat originally suggested in the early documents, people would simply end up winning the tribunal with epic cowboy moves, and the story would either have to accept that or be a poorly written story.
Yeah, a lot of games struggle with having the player character forced into circumstances that make no sense given the wild abilities of the player. I recall being put off by the rapid alternation in FFXIV between killing actual gods and getting owned by random dudes.
I'm no game designer, but I think the best way to do it is to focus more on the quality of the writing. It's what gives a story those moments that really stick with you. When I think back on Disco Elysium, it's not about being disappointed that such and such options weren't available for me to say or do, it's on "That the bourgeoisie are not human."
It’s possible to make a game with lots of action and shit that has a well written story, but fundamentally it’s gonna have to be shaped around the actually existing great man that is the player character.
I'm going to mention Pathologic 2 here as well, as an example of a game that very much doesn't do this. There's lots of action (depending on how you play, I guess) and the story is fantastic, but despite the fact that your character is a bit more important than most other characters, it's not like you're super human or anything. You're very much just trying to survive an impossible situation, exactly like everyone else.
That being said, I think your general point stands, because I can't think of a single other game that does what Pathologic 2 does. That game is truly special.
From what I know Pathologic 2 has a good setup for it, being limited in scope(easy to be the Great Man of one village) and each character being uniquely capable by virtue of having a comparatively rare medical skill or ability that would be scarce in a rural area.
You don't need to have the protagonist be a Great Man, even though most games do that.
Well yeah theres no rule to say you need to do it, but if you let players have enough freedom within the gameplay to become godlike compared to every other character, then it preserves the coherency between story and gameplay to make the character a Great Man in some way. Compared to just not doing that and making players frustrated and unimmersed, or having to scale back what the player can realistically do so the character can also be credibly limited in ability within the story(which can be better but is harder and requires good balance and time to fine tune.)
I never said it was trivial to write stories that aren't just arcade games for the MC to win, but it's by no means difficult if you have aims more interesting than shoveling power fantasy slop into the player's gullet.
Fr, origins actually had good world-building and character writing.
Have you played the other two? Trespasser is the best dragon age ever got
I tried to enjoy the sequels, but Origins was honestly the last BioWare game I enjoyed. They are popular though, so more of a me issue than anything else.
Ah no plenty of popular shit is trash. Honestly, I had to learn to appreciate the last two. Origins was my favorite game of all time so I went into the sequels comparing to that and I didn't enjoy it. But, once I learned to appreciate each for its own reasons I began to enjoy all of them. Origins is incredible and was my favorite game for a long time, but I might like inquisition the best now, with the addition of the DLC. high school me was so disappointed with Dragon age 2 that it made me less passionate about gaming as a whole. Now I think that its actually a really great game with the best characters of the whole series. Each of them does things the others don't, each of them has strengths and weaknesses the others don't.
I'm honestly a bit of a fangirl with the series. I visit the subreddit most days, and I've played inquisition 5 times, DA2 3 times and DAO 6 times. I'm a big art snob but I have a soft spot for fantasy and DA does it really well.
That’s a ringing endorsement and honestly convinced me to give it another go.
I know it’s at least partially the age I was at the time, but origins really was perfect to me. Well, that and Inon Zur’s amazing work.
What mindset would you recommend approaching inquisition from in order to appreciate it?
Ok lets start with the basics. Mods. Inquisition has some quality of life issues that mods help with alot. This list is recent enough that it should be comprehensive. The important ones are war table - no waiting, increased search radius, quicker looting, more banter, DAI Community patch, increase inventory capacity (if you don't enjoy inventory management). You could also download some texture mods or character creation mods.
I'd recommend going rogue artificer. Get the fun upgrade, stack crit (iirc), and go nuts. When I first went through the series origins combat was my favorite, now its probably inquisition.
Leave the hinterlands as soon as you can. Focus on the main zone quest line when you go to a new zone. The best one is probably crestwood. Fallow mire is decent for how short it is. Western approach is the worst one. Do not, under any circumstances, do the skull minigames. if you want to unlock the vault just use a save editor.
The highlights of the game are probably the templar recruitment quest, which I only did once because I always pick mages, and the DLC. The mage quest is good too though so if you want to pick mages just do it. The main point is that unless you just really like the game like I do don't try to 100% zones. You'll burn yourself out. The DLC is all meant for endgame though so don't do it too early. You could try dropping the difficulty and doing them early, but I don't remember how level scaling works. Do Jaws of Hakkon - Descent - final battle - trespasser.
Now, in terms of appreciating the story. The tone is lighter overall, though the writing isn't actually much lighter. It's the lack of horror elements and the pretty art style that are the big differences. There is still some body horror but its much tamer. If you're like me and as time has gone on you care less about things being "gritty" and "dark" you will like it more than you did before.
Additionally the structure is quite different. In Origins you follow a more typical fantasy story where you start as a nobody and have to prove yourself, not truly being respected until just before the final battle. There is a rhythm to this kind of story that people are very used to, and inquisition doesn't follow it. That is one of the biggest reasons some fans prefer origins. Inquisition is about being thrust into great responsibility and power completely by chance. It's also less about you and your companions and more about the inquisition. It serves to tell the story they want to, but its less of an individual story and some fans don't like that.
You have to understand going in that it is a different kind of story than Origins, less individual and personal and more about the wider world. It's worse as a power fantasy because of the way you are thrust into the inquisition and given so much power so early. It does politics pretty well and the world itself feels quite believable.
If you go into it wanting to experience a bigger, more interesting world, with a complex, believable political landscape, and you aren't married to a gritty presentation with a typical fantasy powerclimb you'll do fine. The characters are great, cassandra, varric, solas, and dorian are probably the highlights, though I think all are well done. Its a bioware RPG so talk to companions after every main story quest
The main point overall is that none of the games are direct sequels to each other. They exist in the same world, have similar themes, but are all very different. If you golly gee I sure do love origins and go into the others you'll be dissapointed. If you approach it with a desire to appreciate what each does better than the others you'll have a great time.
:read-theory: People's favorite game isn't origins like :reddit-logo: thinks. It's just whichever game you played first. /r/dragonage has comprehensive surveys about preferences and that seems to be the case. :read-theory:
By the way this is what each do well
Origins: origin stories! Horror, slower more tactical combat (if you like that), and macro plot pacing and delivery.
DA2: Characters and character development, best companions. Each companion has a unique specialization which makes them fun to experiment with and feel distinct. Unique story progression. Meredith and the arishok are good villains
DAI: Art style, expansive world, distinct well written cultures and societies. Worldbuilding, my favorite part of inquisition was literally just learning about thedas and exploring. Probably the best codex entries. Dragon fights are probably the best boss battles of the series.
they all have their struggles
Origins: Drab artstyle, brecilian forest, combat is slooooww and not as good as more recent CRPGs like Deadfire.
DA2: Reused assests, smaller scope/less to explore
Inquistion: Shit villain, bad plot pacing (at the end), worst horror, boring open world, besides jaws of hakkon!
:cat-trans: :only-good-gamer:
That’s a lot of info, thanks!
The mod list is highly useful, the war table made me feel like I was playing an mmo last time lol.
That’s good advice on the don’t 100% hinterlands, I was a hardcore completionist last time I gave it a shot.
Is artificer like a rogue? Crit stacking is always cool.
You’re right on about mellowing out with “everything needs to be like the worst parts of antiquity in order to be realistic” vibe.
My origins character almost undoubtedly left ferelden a worse place, but can you really blame an elf for burning it down? I still wish we got a direct sequel tbh, but you’ve definitely pointed out the things to look for and appreciate. I look forwards to seeing why so many people are obsessed with Solas as a companion on the sub.
Have fun being a completionist in jaws of hakkon. If you decide you want to do more open world stuff before the final battle you always can. Avoid the western approach, it has the weakest main quest and the worst art.
The amount of people who crush on the egg is honestly hilarious to me.
Yes! Rogue class artificer specialization. Artificer is the fan favorite because of the throw 10lbs of explosives that regen stamina when they crit (if you pick the right passive in the poison tree I think). Each class has 3 specializations. Warrior is only fun with templar, mage is fine as long as you avoid necromancer, rogue is good all around but artificer is clearly the best. Save playing warrior for a templar playthrough reaver is bad and boring, champion is broken and boring
You'll have fun playing an elf in this one. The main story is best for a human but everything else is best as an elf. There are some great choices you can make in some parts of the story. You might want to look up a guide to make sure you get the result you want in halamshiral though, its complicated.
thanks for the tips, human noble revenge saga was pretty goated in origins, but so was city elf.
What’s your opinion on blood mage in inquisition? In origins it really fit those “apostate anti-cleric” vibes
I loved those origins too, the dwarf ones were great but those two gave you the most story connection.
You learn some interesting things about blood magic lore wise in inquisition but there is no blood magic spec. You can't really be the leader of a chantry organization while doing the worst sin in the book. Rift mage, knight enchanter (arcane warrior), necromancer are the 3 specs. The necromancer spec is terrible and not that fun, but knight enchanter is literally ancient elvish magic so its the best for being full elfy. I haven't actually played it though, I did rift mage for my 1 mage playthrough. I thought it was neat and thematic and the animations and mechanics are great.
Dragon age 2 has a blood mage companion and a blood mage spec for hawke. Killing templars as a bloodmage in 2 is neat.
It's unlikely there will be a blood magic spec in Dreadwolf. The devs have said that they don't like the bloodmage option because realistically using it would draw enormous attention and its too much work to do that honestly. We might get a blood mage companion again, but I'd say that's unlikely. It's heavily implied by this point that there is no elf blood magic tradition. It's mostly a tevinter thing or an apostate thing. Dreadwolf is going to be a very rah rah fight the power game, based on leaks, and so any tevinter we get will be against the magisters and therefore unlikely to use blood magic.
We could get an apostate blood mage but I mean think about how many characters would just leave the party if someone was doing blood magic. Like, shale, morrigan, sten are probably the only ones who would stick with a blood mage in origins. In dragon age 2 only merill, varric, isabella. The whole inquisition would fall apart if you were a blood mage but the only companions who would tolerate it would be cole, solas, varric, dorian. The devs don't like that kind of immersion breaking where you are cutting open your hand to cast a spell right next to a former templar and two devout andrastians.
fuck, writing this makes me want to do a knight enchanter playthrough
:freeze-gamer:
Thanks for the info, I didn’t know about the devs saying that. It makes a lot of sense though.
Dread wolf sounds like it’s going to be lit, I’ve always felt like rebellions against magic users are under explored in fantasy. Like, if some people can harness the power of creation it would make sense for class divisions t o split along those lines.
Yeah honestly its probably a reaction to dragon age 2. Its a game about the templar mage conflict and if you play a mage you spend the whole time running around in wizard robes and a magic staff talking to templars telling you to report any suspicious people. You can also do blood magic with a party consisting of an active templar, an andrastian choir boy, and the captain of the guard. It's very B movie funny.
Tevinter is going to be a big part of it and their concept art for it looks incredible! I'm really excited for those stories. I love killing slavers.
My expectations are so high for it. Like, EA has given them such a long leash and the DLC that came out for inquisition was so good. It seems like they've been given what they need to make something really great. According to some leaks they are making big changes to the combat system though. Apparently its (recent) god of war style combat with mass effect style party control. It'd be the first time the studio has done anything like it in a very long time, and I'm concerned it will be a drain on the project.
That’s certainly…creative. With the current crog renaissance I kinda hope they don’t go further in on making it an action game, but getting something brand new is nice as well.
And as you said, killing slavers rules. Maybe if they also have GoW tier brutality the action elements can synergize with that.
It would also be cool to see how they incorporate roguery into such a combat system.
And yeah, you’re right it makes sense to remove it. It would be cool though if you had to convince your companions not to ditch you./actually turn against you. It would probably generate gamer rage if Leliana dumps them though.
Yeah its a renaissance but the funny thing is that when the devs of the CRPG games get successful they instantly switch it up to reach a bigger audience. The pillars and tyranny devs are doing it with avowed, bioware has been actionifying dragon age. The ones who have been sticking to the CRPG formula have also slowly been shifting to turn based focus. Real time with pause combat is sorta this middle ground that I think will give way to games focusing on crunchy tactics gameplay, owlcat and inixile, and the ones that push closer to action, bioware. Its like how traditional RTS games split into mobas and 4x/grand strategy.
I actually think that inquisition did a great job with the combat. Trespasser added an additional, swapable, skill upgrade for every skill in the game and it makes it so much better. You can pump the difficulty up really high with the trials system and I quite enjoy it.
Play the pillars games after this! The first one has a rough first 10 hours and combat I don't really like but the story is great. The second one has a worse story and companions but my favorite crpg combat ever, gorgeous art and stellar worldbuilding. The combat has such beautiful math, like, its so pretty. The story is about colonialism, environmentalism, different economics systems clashing, and faith. And you can just sorta land your ship on slaver island and kill all of the slavers and now theres no more (chattel) slavery :)
Yeah I'm pretty unsure about those leaks because how do you make mages and warriors and rogues all fun while moving towards action? Like if they add a parry system how would mages interact with it? In elden ring playing a mage is either roflstomping everything or running and hiding and spending 10 minutes killing 3 people. All it has going for it is the wizard power fantasy and the resource management.
Lmao love taking away the waifu. It'd be great if they saved it to the character file instead of the save file so that save scumming couldn't bring her back. Roll a new character boyo.
People talk about how its such a shame that there aren't more different endings to games because of time and budget constraints, especially for sequels, but things like companions that only follow you on certain playthroughs would be just as cool. Like, imagine if you had to choose between Jowan, Wynne, and Cullen depending on your choices in the circle tower. Or if the second of the new Dwarven king joins your party after. That sorta stuff would be great. The owlcat pathfinder games actually do this pretty well but I've never been as passionate about them. A spinoff game about apostates that deals more directly with blood magic as a central theme would be cool.
Yeah it’s a renaissance but …
I see what you mean. perhaps I’m reaching a bit on this, but I’ve never considered RTwP to be a fundamentally necessary aspect of the genre (more a set of conventions that existed during a golden age that are treated as genre). Like, Larian and Owlcat give me huge amounts of hope for rpg games made for ttrpg enjoyers which is kind of how I’ve viewed the spirit of “crpg” as a genre.
pillars
Loved those games
The combat has such beautiful math
This goes above my head, buts sounds like it’s super interesting.
Yeah I’m pretty unsure about those leaks because how do you make mages and warriors and rogues all fun while moving towards action?
That’s partly why I find it exciting. I love it when a studio charges head on against a design challenge. Even if it fails, it’s interesting to examine the why and how afterwards. If it works, they’ve progressed the medium.
saved it to the character file instead of the save file
Diabolical
companions that only follow you on certain playthroughs would be just as cool
Agreed. In BG3 it’s highly likely there is going to be a companion lock of some sort after act 1. We only have ancient dev diaries and some vague hints towards from data mining, but that might actually happen based off what we know so far.
A spinoff game about apostates that deals more directly with blood magic as a central theme would be cool.
I don’t think there’s been an attempt aside from Tyranny to tell a serious story about having a villain protagonist.
This could be an awesome to tell a story of a tragic villain. Like, the character starts as a hunted newly awakened mage who just wanted to be free or something. Have the wise old person character be a blood mage who saves them from the templars and go from there.
renaissance
I really wished that I liked larian and owlcat's games more, they just feel kinda hokey to me. Maybe the reason I prefer Pillars and Dragon age is that they are more like novels in terms of storytelling than like ttrpgs. It makes sense that they are the ones that are moving towards action given that they feel more like stories than like adventures.
math
Basically attack rolls are all contested and miss/graze/hit/crit is based on the difference between the two rolls. Additionally each attribute point contributes to things relevant to every character because each contributes to at least 1 of 4 defense stats. The way everything fits together on every roll is incredibly satisfying. There is no part of the combat system that can be disregarded, no mechanics that certain characters ignore, its just very neat.
combat
I mean theoretically a fantasy action combat system with mass effect style companion control sounds fucking excellent so I hope they stick the landing
BG3
I haven't tried it yet since I didn't like divinity too much. The artstyle and vibe were off for me. Maybe when its out of early access I will. Do you like it?
blood magic
I would love it if they were put into a situation where the only way to escape was to use blood magic and so they swallow their pride and do it. But then in the future there was an opportunity to avoid using blood magic, de-escalation, lyrium, leverage/negotiation, but they don't see it. Watching them grapple with either the regret or the burden of the violent world they have created for themselves would be extremely good storytelling. Then they meet a butch lesbian ex templar who promises to protect them if they promise not to use blood magic and they have gay sex
Maybe the reason I prefer Pillars and Dragon age is that they are more like novels in terms of storytelling than like ttrpgs
You might really like owl cats “rogue trader”. I pirated the alpha and there are parts of the game that genuinely felt on par with a novel. Better than most actual 40k novels.
There is no part of the combat system that can be disregarded
I think I see what you mean now. The cohesive and “greater than the sun of its parts” aspect of this is really cool.
BG3
I cannot emphasize enough just how apparent the love for the tabletop is when playing this game. When it releases I fully expect it to be received as a masterpiece of translating between mediums. The writing is good too.
blood magic
Kinda reminds me of spec ops the line, but tbh the protection part sounds kinda…coercive? It would be cool though to have a Templar or ex Templar who runs cover because they are emotionally bonded in some way. The conflict between their indoctrination as a Templar and their own loved experiences is rich with potential.
rogue trader
Thats great actually, I had completely written it off I'll look into it more now. BG3 too
blood magic
I guess in my head that story turned out that the blood magic was hurting the apostate. And that the no more blood magic, I'll protect you instead, was a loving thing. Though I'm completely neutral on blood magic in the games as written, all thats bad is that some people need to learn it from demons, and consorting with demons ain't great. The real story is that blood is essentially just a substitute for lyrium and the chantry controls the lyrium trade. Presumably templar abilities also don't work on blood mages because templars gain their powers from the lyrium that the chantry gives them. That they are addicted to. The chantry's entire power, everywhere besides tevinter, is completely dependent on the control of lyrium. They are the only ones aloud to buy and move it and they get their muscle hooked on the stuff. Its brilliant and blood magic ruins fucking all of it.
So the real blood magic story is it's power to destroy the chantry. If we ever get another blood mage companion it probably means the chantry became evil. This might just be a fan theory thing though because while materially this makes total sense the game usually approaches blood magic with pure ideology :zizek-preference:
Honestly though what we learn about blood magic in inquisition, it weakens connection to the fade, might be what keeps blood magic on the periphery. I think the fade will continue to be important and one of the specializations in inquisition is literally rift mage.
Cutting open your hand mid combat to shoot a fireball will always be dope though.
Eastern Europeans have game dev magic unknown to the rest of humanity.
In all seriousness, I like games with stories that would be hard to tell in other media. Cool game
New Vegas? Also stuff like the original Half Life, Deus Ex, GTA San Andreas (Or 4), Star Wars KotoR (or the Jedi Knight series), etc.
Speaking for the ones I've played, KOTOR (my beloved) and Deus Ex are both pretty wordy, and KOTOR is a CRPG in all but camera perspective. I didn't think of Jedi Knight as having a particularly good story, although it is a very fun game.
Fan translation of kurvitz novel “sacred and terrible Air” dropped on the disco sub last week.
:reddit-logo::kitsuragi-depress:
:kitsupogi: https://libgen.is/fiction/?q=Robert+Kurvitz+sacred+terrible+airI didn't use the mirrors, just the GET links, sorry, didn't mean to disappoint anyone. Good heads up for others. I'll post the current direct links but don't know they expire or anything. They are http and not https for firefox might ask for an additional click if you have strict https mode enabled. Or go to hellsite but having not used them cannot confirm.
Robert Kurvitz - Sacred and Terrible Air.pdf
Robert Kurvitz - Sacred and Terrible Air.epub
These worked a second time for me but it might be a "works on my machine" thing or something.Yea nevermind, I think it was my https-everywhere thingy interfering. Sorry for the bother
No bother, comrade! :rosa-salute: Don't want to give out bad links.
The true spiritual successor for the throne after Planescape Torment (i've been told)
It really is. Tides of Numenera ended up being a pretty good game, but nowhere near the one it aimed to be a spiritual successor to. Small parts of it, on occasions, managed to replicate the feel you had playing Planescape but never for long.
And then Disco did it, from an entirely new angle. And it was fucking awesome. Mind you, given ZA/UM's legal issues, I'm trying to resign myself to the fact we might not see another one, at least not from them.
My usual description of it is: it can touch you as deep as a very good book can. That's basically because, as you said and like DE, it's basically a great interactive book.
I regularly post this here but if you're looking for other games where writing, worldbuilding and dialog are - by far - the main focus of the game and quality of the same is excellent: Sunless Skies, Sunless Sea, Pentiment, A House of Many Doors.
It's excellent, just dont go into it thinking it's like Baldur's Gate or one of those other isometric tactical rpgs, it really isnt. Honestly the closest I can think of would be Disco Elysium.
It hurts a bit to read Baldur's Gate described as a "tactical RPG" given it's one of the classic CPRGs and perhaps, if talking about BG2 at least, the most well-rounded of them all to this day (when you consider not just writing but combat, ruleset, gameplay, amount of content - including a metric shitton of secret content - etc. as well). The writing in BG/BG2 is good - above most games. It just pales in comparison to games like Planescape or DE, obviously. I'd say a pure combat / tactical version of BG would rather be the Icewind Dale games.
Anyway, your point was that combat in planescape (and in fact most aspects outside of writing/dialog/atmosphere) is nothing special / sucks, and you're absolutely right.
The writing in BG/BG2 is good - above most games.
Damned with faint praise.
I kid, I kid, I did enjoy my time with the Baldur's Gatesies story wise just fine, but it is a lot more of a tactical rpg than Planescape could ever hope to be. I just didnt want to call it a crpg which is a category so wide as to be meaningless.
I just didnt want to call it a crpg which is a category so wide as to be meaningless
For a few years now tons of people have also been using it as meaning "Classic RPGs" - and not in the sense of "one of the old games" but more like those old games, meaning "getting closer to that formula from the isometric golden age of RPG". So using the term to describe PoE, PoE2, Tyranny, DE, the Pathfinder games from Owlcat (all of which putting quality-of-writing as an important selling point if not necessarily the main one), etc. but not, say, Skyrim (which doesn't - you have a sandbox and it's very fun in its own way but the sand is not that deep, and the writing is poor mostly - compare it to Morrowind for example, which was much closer to the former examples despite its gameplay being much closer to the latter). Basically describing the similar games of the new golden age for them we've entered for a few years now.
With a few exceptions, it seems Steam at least now does the same, too - see the CRPG tag over there. It's almost exclusively that kind of games, or very close to it.
how i wish sometimes that terms like "Doom-like" or "Rogue-like" became the actual genre names, the description of the gameplay is right in the name :sicko-wistful:
Also with the situation vis a vis Za/um being over took by market ghouls you might as well just pirate it
Everyone I know doesn't like games with too much reading/little to no action:sadness:
