I’ve felt this way for a while. The lack of ideological diversity is what creates the illusion of “left unity” over here. One example:
Imagine if we had a sizeable chunk of people who are anti-Dengist. Then nearly every post about China, every use of Xi emotes, would be filled with replies criticising China, Xi, and the OP.
And you couldn’t call all these people libs and just ban them because there are a lot of leftists, from Maoists to anarchists to ultras to even non-Dengist MLs who genuinely oppose the modern Chinese state based on their ideological convictions.
And if the mods banned them, that would be pure bias, and could lead to an exodus of those other leftist users, which would mean we are not actually left-unity.
But if the mods didn’t, then it would be a severe restriction on the kinds of content that can be posted on the “main” communities. You couldn’t say things like “China is moving towards socialism or that it is in the primary stage of socialist construction” because these are controversial opinions not held by other leftists. Allowing these, would mean allowing the opposites, which would mean a war in the replies every time you post something like this.
As an example, see what happened with vegan posting. In this “left unity” Hexbear, anarchists would have to confine their controversial opinions to the anarchist comm, MLs to the ML comm etc.
Right now, we have an extremely small minority of people who are against the majority opinion in some way. And those people are tolerated in their dissent as long as they frame it in very careful ways and never outright go against the majority. I mean, we have left unity emotes and anarchist emotes and that’s all cool.
But what happens if there are a 100+ anarchists who start posting and commenting about their analysis/opinion on the USSR? Would that be allowed? Would anarchists, if they existed in sizeable numbers be allowed to not just criticise the Soviet Union in the narrow ways in which is allowed currently but to state the full breadth of their opinions on it from the start? Even more controversial, what if Trots started talking about Stalin? How long would that be tolerated?
Now, I’m not saying the way Hexbear operates is wrong. Maybe left unity is a pipe dream and that there are just too many controversial positions and opposing visions for it to be real. Maybe, if there were other tendencies here, the mods would figure out a way to balance things out. Be calm on main, go wild on specific comms. But I think that is the point - Hexbear’s claim to left unity needs to be properly tested. The users and the mods need to face these challenges and come up with proper solutions that doesn’t end in purges of other communities. We cannot claim to be this big tent when we’ve only been in this tiny sandbox with a handful of small rocks.
Digging into 100+ year old historical controversies is rarely useful for organizing
I'd go even further and say it's frequently detrimental for organizing
To think you've cooked the perfect vanguardist element in the absolute depth of the imperial core and you have communist or even socialist in the name.
What? Swamp Maoism will prevail!
But seriously, yeah, I feel like people forget that the imperial core is rabidly anticommunist. At the same time, the imperial core is also starting to fail and people are going to get hurt by that either through economics or the direct violence of the state.
I think this is the sensible take. To get from where we are to a blank room with an ML button and an anarchist button is going to take some elbow grease. If you can't make peace with another tendency, how do you intend to make peace with a grass touching enjoyer?
Most leftist posters online are from countries where their leftist movement is so fucking pitifully small and impotent that there's really just no point in sectarianism. For example, in the US where I live, "the left" has not even built a movement worth fighting for control over the direction and "tendency" of it.
If hexbear had different demographics as far as the ratio of anarchists to mls to maoists to trotskyists or whatever, sectarianism would still just be fundamentally embarrassing, internet-brained horseshit that indicates the people doing it don't know what the fuck they're doing or how to prioritize things. I hope someday "leftism" in the US develops to the point that intra-left sectarianism could actually be worth a single fucking shit as a political concern, but that's not the world we currently live in. An argument between some hack "paleo-libertarian" and a "geo-libertarian" is genuinely of more consequence, because at least a few stupid rich people believe in that shit, and can exert disproportionate influence over it.
As far as how sincere this community is to that principle of "left unity" (or at least anti-sectarianism), for what it's worth I've never seen a person get banned or have a post removed for criticizing MLs or the USSR or any other ML darling subject, but blackmoldfutures has been repeatedly banned for sectarianism against anarchists and shit and it's a running gag.
Trots have it coming if they are recognizable as Trots and not "how ML theory happened to get popularized in some parts of Latin America and Southern Europe" trots.
I've had comments removed for sectarianism before, and reflecting on it the mods were right to do it.
I think the main difference with what you're seeing and what you're proposing is that pro-China/pro-USSR sentiment is a positive type of content, whether or not we all agree that those were leftist projects, meanwhile 100 anarchists coming in and posting anti-China/anti-USSR sentiment would be a negative type of content. I would much rather have those 100 anarchists coming in and posting pro-Bakunin/anarchist projects/etc content, positively pushing the aspects of leftism that resonate with them, than seeing that effort go into tearing down another tendency.
I hope that makes sense. Trots posting Trot orgs doing cool stuff I think would be widely praised, anti-Dengists posting about leftist groups in China doing cool stuff would be too even if they were opposed by the CPC. Having a space where all leftists are positive about their own tendency and avoid shitting on others' is valuable and something I think we achieve here usually, and yes I'm aware that this ideal creates some big contradictions but I think that that's inevitable with building any kind of group.
anti-Dengists posting about leftist groups in China doing cool stuff would be too even if they were opposed by the CPC.
this one is pure
there would just be dozens of comments calling them cia funded color revolutionaries if they are even remotely opposed to the CPC even if the thing they were doing was building a community vegetable gardenpeople will celebrate maoists, trotskysist, anarchists, etc. sometimes, but they will never do it to a group in an anti western country bc immediately they become a cia agent planning to overthrow the government, see discussion of anarchist groups in Russia right now, Trotskyists in Kazakhstan during the gas thing last year, Filipino maoists who say bad against Xi, various underground socialist groups in Iran last year, it is a lot easier for people here to praise Sawant for anti caste laws in Seattle, than to go to bat for Belarusian anarchists who tried to destroy train infrastructure for trains carrying war shipments, the former doesn’t threaten their beliefs the latter does, it’s safe for people to throw a bone to USA anarchists as the USA is their enemy but feels dangerous to give any space to a Chinese anarchist who might somehow undermine China and therefore benefit the US thinking that everything is a zero sum game, you have to pick sides and anything that doesn’t agree with your side is serving the enemy
It definitely is a shame, and I also think people should have a slightly less heavy trigger finger on calling everything CIA and engaging in zero sum black and white thinking especially in an internet forum that has the auspices of being open minded within the left, not everything that happens can be framed in terms of pro west or anti west, it’s not dialectical thinking. And it’s gonna grate on people when they constantly have to hear Anarchists, Trotskyists, Maoists, etc. are actually reactionaries serving the west bc they have the “wrong” take on something.
Maybe lemmygrad will be a healthy outlet for people who would be better off in ML only genzedong type spaces, because there’s frankly no reason to be here instead of there, if someone is not open to differing tendencies, they would probably enjoy that more anyways
even if the thing they were doing was building a community vegetable garden
Hyperbolic
Well there’s historical precedent for MLs to be wary of left anti-communists using lefty rhetoric to get a wedge in the door and then once the door is open the reactionaries seize power. Happened in Poland, in Chile & almost happened in Syria.
This is a good idea. Don’t shit on other leftist ideologies/projects even if you disagree (though proper criticism can of course be posted). Post more memes and positive content of your tendency.
Yet you see articles from Socialist Alternative get decent receptions on here, and you see Kshama Sawant get plenty of praise.
So while people will joke about Trots, if there's some Trot news of substance it'll get received on its merits.
And where stuff clashes to much the struggle sesh community comes into play.
I got a phrase I like to remember when it comes to leftist infighting.
"If we have bones to pick we can do that at the victory feast." Until then if you oppose fascism and capitalism you are my comrade. I'm ML so yeah I got some beefs with certain tendencies. But their boots aren't on my goddamn neck. I make jokes about Trots but at the end of the day we face the same enemy, so I like to keep the jokes gentle. Leaflet jokes and so on. But one of the leftists I look up to is Sawant. She's a Trot. She gets shit done.
I do agree this place is a bit ML so maybe I don't see the bias so much. But I also see kindness, mutual aid, and a lot of good intentions.
left unity isn't the absence of factional disagreement, but the sublimation of political differences in service of more imminent concerns. It's true that I probably couldn't get away with criticizing certain marxist beliefs too harshly, but i also really don't want to, because by and large they're not really relevant. I don't misrepresent myself and I don't feel compelled to, and that's good enough for me.
stepping in to voice that while I am an ML and I have firm ideological stances that are in opposition to anarchist theory, I 100% respect and love my anarchist comrades for their organizing and praxis enthusiasm, cuttingly aggressive social analysis, and respectable outside perspectives on AES. Our ideal social and political systems don't match and that doesn't matter right now and it won't for a while. Unlike us and liberals, we're fundamentally on the same train, just getting off at different stops.
you better miss me with that Slava Ukrani pro-NATO type shit tho
Egh. Maoists, anarchists, and usually even Trots are my comrades, even IRL. I'm not a dick and unnecessarily talk shit about their tenancies, because who the fuck cares.
Eh. If someone can't confine their complaining to the main problems, all of them being the west, then maybe they should just cope
Hell, I'll even elaborate. I pretty much agree: left unity is a phrase that doesn't mean very much. Unity in what? Practically speaking, the line seems to be "are you so inundated with capitalist propaganda that you feel your primary enemies are 'fake' leftists rather than western hegemony?"
Maybe "vague" would express what I mean better than "meaningless", but that also sounds negative. To me it feels kind of like the phrase "good enough" on its own. Good enough at what, for what? Unless those are clear from the context, the phrase won't mean anything in particular
So on this English-language website made up mostly of my fellow western bozos, my statement is more or less "if you try to Monday night quarterback historical geopolitics to me, I will laugh at you", but that would be a fucked up thing to tell a Filipino Maoist guerrilla talking about policies that directly affected them. Unlike us, their criticism of a socialist state wouldn't implicitly serve western interests without any chance of contributing to the overall body of theory
Leftist infighting is a psyop. Hot take but anarchists tend towards idealism. We fundamentally agree on the big stuff. It is like big siblings and little siblings you know. To make it more complicated anarchists tend to be the most effective on the ground. In real life despite family bickering we are still fmaily.
I disagree with people on here all the time, if anything I'm too contrarian and argumentative than I ought to be. I have had all kinds of bad takes in the past that stay up. Are you saying you want me to be more argumentative and post hotter takes? I'm not sure that's a good idea.
Imagine if we had a sizeable chunk of people who are anti-Dengist. Then nearly every post about China, every use of Xi emotes, would be filled with replies criticising China, Xi, and the OP.
That's not really true. Being anti-Dengist doesn't mean that you have to object to Xi emotes or criticize China at every possible opportunity. Like if you see an anti-landlord meme featuring
, you don't have to genuinely believe that Mao did nothing wrong to enjoy it, or at least to refrain from posting "ZOMG YOU GUYS NOT FUNNY GOMMUNISM NO FOOD 10 GOZILLION DEAD!!!" It's called having a sense of humor and not being a nerd?If we had a thread of serious discussion regarding any state or any leftist leader past or present, you'd probably see a range of takes including criticism, and I don't see the mods being particularly ban-happy. I guess I just don't see what your issue is.
...unless
As an example, see what happened with vegan posting.
Is that what this is all about?
real talk for a moment but there is no real unity or division in the american left because there is no functional organization around any one particular political program for their to be any unity or division for
anyone who is stuck on about left unity or being divisive is either unhealthily obsessed over these things and needs to actually go do something in the real world in regards to their beliefs or they are a spook trying to manipulate you for their own nefarious end
also anyone who thinks the path forward is to recreate the past is frankly a fool and a dangerous fool at that. the future is not the past and will never be. whatever the next stage of the political economy that takes hold globally will not be the ussr system or the spanish syndicalist system or whatever. it might have elements of those systems but it will be new and novel.
Yeah, I don’t disagree. Left Unity is useful when organising around a specific, local issue. My point was investigating the possibility of it existing in an online space that is decisively not based around organising, but general posting ie hexbear.
I feel like online spaces tend to amplify leftist-infighting. When people get out into the real world and actually do something with an org only real fucking weirdos start arguing about tendencies when you're trying to feed the homeless.
Yeah, true. OTOH, I feel the online is seeping into the offline too - I saw a “no tankie” poster in my favourite anarchist hanging out place.
the person who put that up will do absolutely nothing in regards to stopping anyone who is ML from jumping in and helping out in regards to whatever efforts that org is pushing in their community i promise you this
Seems like a great opportunity to strike up conversation about which terminally-online weirdo is trying to drive away volunteers for their belief that Vietnam is okay or w/e
It's not "left unity bad" it's "preoccupation with left unity in a place with no program bad"
not so much bad as pointless, a waste of time and effort
the people preoccupied with this are the people trying to bicker over past grievances they are not even directly affected by and usually are not even active in doing anything particularly useful at all. they are spoilers in the realest sense of the word they spend their time online focused on reconciliation and arguing while the people are actually out there doing and those that are doing things arent really bothered with arguing over ideological trivia they are just feeding homeless people and yelling at city hall and shit and they will always and forever be more radical and cooler than whoever is yelling online about leftist unity or how MLs are bad or anarchists are naive or whatever
you misunderstand: left unity is meaningless in our current political paradigm in the usa like it literally doesnt help or hurt anything its a waste of time however even if this wasnt the case the focus on dogmatic adherence to past projects is fruitless as well because whatever comes next will be a new and novel thing, just as those past projects were themselves, and anyone clinging to dogmatism is going to be harmful to that project whether or not they claim to be on the side or unity or division
there literally is no contradiction in what im saying
I'm not a Marxist-Leninist. While dissenting opinions/ideologies are allowed, Hexbear's party line seems to be pretty clearly Marxist-Leninist to me. However, that isn't a problem for me since my dream is the destruction of the USA and ending neoliberal hegemony, which most Hexbear users are on board with.
most
if i fucking find anyone here who doesn't dream of the destruction of the usa and the ending of neoliberal hegemony they are going straight to the
This is a real problem. There is definitely dogpiling and people who will not listen to anything, but for myself and others also it is not fun to hear the same bad-faith things regurgitated and recycled over and over. Most of these things are not even relevant to today. Discussion that rejects a western imperialist framing and understands pragmatism I am very open to.
It is remarkably similar to trying to discuss indigenous issues with white people. Many will agree with most key points but can not divorce themselves from their broken settler brains, and there is a seething racist inside waiting to tell me about all the things the Spanish said my ancestors did.
It's not a coincidence that we're having this discussion while the capitalists just declared that business owners can voice their contempt for others through the market.
Leftists of all stripes are unwittingly craving the same declaration. You can be shitty to others and that is the ultimate sign of freedom and what it means to wield power. Dunking is the only praxis. The set of all tools and means to change society are gone except for posting and arguing with each other.
Capitalism is out of answers so it's final solution is "fight amongst yourselves, don't even bother with anything else." The leftist movements that exist under capitalism will adopt the same character.
The real cure here isn't curbing ML so that Anarchists can safely dunk without bans. The cure is to get some non-Western leftists in here to set everyone straight. We need perspectives outside of Western/Northern leftism because it's taking the character of capitalism since it exists under that capitalism.
We need actually existing tendencies from places under a different character to give us perspective so that we can see how silly we are.
it never ends...
throw away the key, doc
