Of course it does, but these aren’t diseases to be cured. Taking a shit sucks too, it smells bad; I don’t see anyone trying to cure our need to take a shit
Only in our fucked up, youth obsessed, capitalist hell society where if you can’t contribute “value” you are a nuisance to be cast aside into a nursing home and left to die in obscurity
There were other times and there are other places where we respected and revered our elders as sources for wisdom and guidance. Of course our “elders” now are boomers so that’s in short supply.
It would be nice. I don’t like clogging my toilet. I also don’t want to sleep and prefer using those 5-8 hours doing activities I enjoy like learning music and reading, while still having full energy.
What the fuck are you talking about humans are supposed to get old and die
They're also "supposed to" CW (SA, Violence, suffering):
spoiler
murder, rape, steal, and do all sorts stuff (that our closest relatives chimpanzees do, at least according to the latest research) and get owned by things like heart disease, cancer, etc (which btw Marx and Engels made fun of Malthus for).
Lots of things are "natural" but some we choose to embrace and others we choose to change. For example, a chud would oppose CW: (transphobia):
spoiler
transition surgery because it's "not natural" and "humans are supposed to be man and woman and there's no natural gender surgery"
::
I disagree completely with this deeply pessimistic view of humanity. None of the things you listed are innate to human nature or the human experience. People are born intersex, people are born trans.
Wanting to “change” getting old and dying implies there is something wrong with getting old and dying. My contention (which I’m about tapped out defending) is that the desire to change something that is good, that is natural, reflects an unhealthy relationship with death that permeates our culture. It is a part of life. We are supposed to die. There is nothing wrong with it. There IS something wrong with pretending it doesn’t exist, by shutting people away in nursing homes, or forcing them to die in hospitals instead of at home surrounded by loved ones.
This the most extreme expression of the type of selfishness and egoism plaguing capitalist society and manifesting in things like ecocide. We are only a small part of the whole. We are not supposed to live forever. We are supposed to be stewards and guides for future generations.
Yes they totally are, but in order to not "mess with nature" then would we just not allow them to get affirming medical procedures? I think that's the issue here, i.e. at what point do we intervene in the otherwise "natural order."
So, wanting to get rid of bodily pain is unnatural and therefore bad? Because there’s no other interpretation when your reply is “that’s the natural order of things” when someone complains about knee pain.
No… not what I mean at all. Knee pain is a condition, which can and should be addressed with medical intervention. Aging is not. What I am trying (and apparently failing) to say is that using your kid as a blood bag in order to stave off the inevitable is extreme, narcissistic and, and yes, unnatural. It betrays a fear of aging and death that is borne from existing in a society which has a profoundly unhealthy relationship with aging and mortality. He could ship of Theseus it if he wanted to, replacing every part of his body with that of a younger person, but it would make no difference… he is still going to get old and die. There is an immaturity in refusing to acknowledge that eventuality, which societally we are also guilty of though to a lesser extent by locking our elderly away in nursing homes, and refusing to acknowledge death as a natural outcome of life, and an unavoidable part of being human.
We might cure aging within this century. We’ll probably cure it faster if enough people agree we should, instead of accepting aging as beautiful and inevitable.
a society which has a profoundly unhealthy relationship with aging and mortality
They’re not diseases but I prefer to not be old. Simple as. Also, I have never met a single living being who doesn’t want their aches and pain to be cured just because it’s “more natural.” Maybe in anime or capeshit movie.
Also, I have never met a single living being who doesn’t want their aches and pain to be cured just because it’s “more natural.” Maybe in anime or capeshit movie.
And even then, in anime that suffering is usually only temporary and the protagonist goes back to being 100% healed.
I disagree. I strive for a world in which humans have rational control over things, after the economy and nature so that we don't have to spend a lot of time and keep it going, there is no reason not to have rational control over the adverse effects of aging.
Spend more time in nursing homes watching people rot to death. Or well less, honestly it is a bad scene. After the revolution ™️ we'll find some way to preserve people's dignity and quality of life as they age, not just the rich
Spend more time in nursing homes watching people rot to death. Or well less, honestly it is a bad scene.
Yeah seriously, I have no idea what kind of idealistic world Assian_Candor lives in. It's not just the isolation that makes nursing homes sad. It's the actual physical state that those people are in. But oh well, trying to help them in their physical ailments won't be "as beautiful" or whatever
They make a good point about gracefully accepting fate. That is important. However it would be more ideal if we could limit the amount of accepting decay you had to do at any one time.
I find the prospect of a world where humans have rational control over nature terrifying.
Because we’re not wise enough? Human nature can change. We can grow wiser as a species — especially if we live longer.
No more wrinkles, no more gray hair… We will have lost something beautiful
Wrinkles aren’t just cosmetic, they form as the connective tissue in your skin breaks down, making your skin thinner, more fragile, and less elastic. This in turn limits what you can do and experience.
I don’t find that beautiful. What I find beautiful is the stuff that comes along with it. Gaining perspective, watching your children and grandchildren grow up, guiding the next generation, focusing less on yourself.
I don’t think we need to slowly decay to have these features in the world.
Wrinkles aren’t just cosmetic, they form as the connective tissue in your skin breaks down, making your skin thinner, more fragile, and less elastic. This in turn limits what you can do and experience.
You're exactly right.
No more wrinkles, no more gray hair… We will have lost something beautiful
This is what lack of scientific literacy does to a MF. Ask any older person and they'll tell you that being old (wrinkles, aches, etc) sucks. It's a shame that some people don't get that.
I don't care so much about how I look, but about the hurt and the choice not a community or me can do in regards to aging. I mean currently medication and good food and good infrastructure can people have 90 years of life expectancy, if you look at workers in more shitty situations they are dying like 20 years earlier. This is an injustice and it will stay an injustice in communism if there would be ways for people to live longer. That is a debate and choice that has to be then be done.
There is nothing holy in the arbitrary life expectancy that material conditions and evolutions "gave" us. I do see how a "change" in population might be seen as beautiful, but I believe that we will not become immortal (but even if we did), so it just is a question about communist reproduction of society. It might ensure that more people can care for a child? In any case currently it is mostly utopian, but the reality is that we can increase the life span of people by decades as society. That is something that Cuba does and they have my support for that. With medication that is upcoming people will likely have a higher quality of life till the climate catastrophe disrupts the production of those, how to distribute them for me is an analogous question. Especially since a few comrades of mine would be dead already without medication.
What I said is aging is natural and normal and not something that needs to be addressed by medical technology.
So what about age-related (more like age-caused) diseases? Should we not do anything about them? Instead of treating the symptoms, why not address the cause? I don't see this distinction you're making. It seems like an arbitrary one, since a lot of diseases and conditions are "natural."
Let's say we eliminate myopia, either with lenses or lasers, and we all see like we're 10 for the rest of our lives. No more blurriness, no more inability to read.
I believe that would be a worse state of the world. We will have lost something beautiful.
Aging is the accelerating breakdown of your body and often your mind. It’s inherently bad. We accept it because we can’t change it and accepting it makes us happier.
The only perk of aging is it signifies your life experience to people around you. But it’s not even that much experience! By the time we hit 80 we’re still babies who’ve hardly seen or done anything.
The only perk of aging is it signifies your life experience to people around you.
Conversely, there's also the fact that there are plenty of people over 60 (or whatever cutoff age defines "old") that act like complete immature babies. Think of boomers yelling at the waitress because of some deficiency with their meal.
Exactly! Some people barely get a chance to grow as human beings before they’re dead. Even the wisest of us could probably get much wiser if we lived longer.
aging and life experience are two things that happen to be linked but don’t need to be in theory. An 80 year old who is physically 20 has no less life experience than one whose body is falling apart
Aging is not a disease. There’s nothing wrong with being old.
There's nothing wrong with looking old, but aches and shit sucks
Of course it does, but these aren’t diseases to be cured. Taking a shit sucks too, it smells bad; I don’t see anyone trying to cure our need to take a shit
That's hotly debated actually: https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/10/19/1061070/is-old-age-a-disease/
Only in our fucked up, youth obsessed, capitalist hell society where if you can’t contribute “value” you are a nuisance to be cast aside into a nursing home and left to die in obscurity
There were other times and there are other places where we respected and revered our elders as sources for wisdom and guidance. Of course our “elders” now are boomers so that’s in short supply.
deleted by creator
Sure it would be nice if I didn’t have to shit too but this is the natural order of things
deleted by creator
Maybe one day we will figure out shitting too
Are you trying to have a serious conversation or are you just resorting to toilet humor?
deleted by creator
It would be nice. I don’t like clogging my toilet. I also don’t want to sleep and prefer using those 5-8 hours doing activities I enjoy like learning music and reading, while still having full energy.
Very
take
What the fuck are you talking about humans are supposed to get old and die
They're also "supposed to" CW (SA, Violence, suffering):
spoiler
murder, rape, steal, and do all sorts stuff (that our closest relatives chimpanzees do, at least according to the latest research) and get owned by things like heart disease, cancer, etc (which btw Marx and Engels made fun of Malthus for).
Lots of things are "natural" but some we choose to embrace and others we choose to change. For example, a chud would oppose CW: (transphobia):
spoiler
transition surgery because it's "not natural" and "humans are supposed to be man and woman and there's no natural gender surgery" ::
I disagree completely with this deeply pessimistic view of humanity. None of the things you listed are innate to human nature or the human experience. People are born intersex, people are born trans.
Wanting to “change” getting old and dying implies there is something wrong with getting old and dying. My contention (which I’m about tapped out defending) is that the desire to change something that is good, that is natural, reflects an unhealthy relationship with death that permeates our culture. It is a part of life. We are supposed to die. There is nothing wrong with it. There IS something wrong with pretending it doesn’t exist, by shutting people away in nursing homes, or forcing them to die in hospitals instead of at home surrounded by loved ones.
This the most extreme expression of the type of selfishness and egoism plaguing capitalist society and manifesting in things like ecocide. We are only a small part of the whole. We are not supposed to live forever. We are supposed to be stewards and guides for future generations.
Yes they totally are, but in order to not "mess with nature" then would we just not allow them to get affirming medical procedures? I think that's the issue here, i.e. at what point do we intervene in the otherwise "natural order."
I think the difference is in the implication that there is something wrong with aging bodies that makes stories like this one eugenics-adjacent
A trans person receiving affirming care is not making such an assumption— gender affirming care does not imply inferiority of one gender vs another
Yeah sure, according to you. Yet aging is the one thing that is "natural." How convenient that it all fits how you want it to be....
Yeah the mental gymnastics are strong with that one...
deleted by creator
So, wanting to get rid of bodily pain is unnatural and therefore bad? Because there’s no other interpretation when your reply is “that’s the natural order of things” when someone complains about knee pain.
No… not what I mean at all. Knee pain is a condition, which can and should be addressed with medical intervention. Aging is not. What I am trying (and apparently failing) to say is that using your kid as a blood bag in order to stave off the inevitable is extreme, narcissistic and, and yes, unnatural. It betrays a fear of aging and death that is borne from existing in a society which has a profoundly unhealthy relationship with aging and mortality. He could ship of Theseus it if he wanted to, replacing every part of his body with that of a younger person, but it would make no difference… he is still going to get old and die. There is an immaturity in refusing to acknowledge that eventuality, which societally we are also guilty of though to a lesser extent by locking our elderly away in nursing homes, and refusing to acknowledge death as a natural outcome of life, and an unavoidable part of being human.
We might cure aging within this century. We’ll probably cure it faster if enough people agree we should, instead of accepting aging as beautiful and inevitable.
I do agree with this
You keep saying this, but as I have pointed out, this is hotly debated amongst scientists. So just because you believe it to be so doesn't make it so.
Sounds like some doctors I know who unironically say shit like this.
To be fair, there are creatures who can live forever, like lobsters, so there isn’t a “supposed to be” in nature.
We aren’t lobsters
Did I say otherwise? Just that there isn’t some wiseman of the wilds type of Mother Nature destiny
They’re not diseases but I prefer to not be old. Simple as. Also, I have never met a single living being who doesn’t want their aches and pain to be cured just because it’s “more natural.” Maybe in anime or capeshit movie.
My bad. I meant “doesn’t want their aches and pain to be cured.” Mixed up my negatives.
It's all good, I knew what you meant
I disagree. I strive for a world in which humans have rational control over things, after the economy and nature so that we don't have to spend a lot of time and keep it going, there is no reason not to have rational control over the adverse effects of aging.
We have to agree to disagree. I find the prospect of a world where humans have rational control over nature terrifying.
Last comment on this bc I feel like I am wasting my breath:
Let’s say we eliminate aging, and we all look like we’re 25 until we keel over at age 200 or whatever. No more wrinkles, no more gray hair.
I believe that would be a worse state of the world. We will have lost something beautiful.
Spend more time in nursing homes watching people rot to death. Or well less, honestly it is a bad scene. After the revolution ™️ we'll find some way to preserve people's dignity and quality of life as they age, not just the rich
Yeah seriously, I have no idea what kind of idealistic world Assian_Candor lives in. It's not just the isolation that makes nursing homes sad. It's the actual physical state that those people are in. But oh well, trying to help them in their physical ailments won't be "as beautiful" or whatever
They make a good point about gracefully accepting fate. That is important. However it would be more ideal if we could limit the amount of accepting decay you had to do at any one time.
Exactly! Accept what you cannot change, but change what you can.
Unless it interferes with "beauty." In that case fuck changing what you can. 🙃
I think finding beauty in it is how they accept it, and maybe they personally need to accept it.
But if we all thought that way we’d never fix this shit!
Because we’re not wise enough? Human nature can change. We can grow wiser as a species — especially if we live longer.
Wrinkles aren’t just cosmetic, they form as the connective tissue in your skin breaks down, making your skin thinner, more fragile, and less elastic. This in turn limits what you can do and experience.
I don’t find that beautiful. What I find beautiful is the stuff that comes along with it. Gaining perspective, watching your children and grandchildren grow up, guiding the next generation, focusing less on yourself.
I don’t think we need to slowly decay to have these features in the world.
You're exactly right.
This is what lack of scientific literacy does to a MF. Ask any older person and they'll tell you that being old (wrinkles, aches, etc) sucks. It's a shame that some people don't get that.
I don't care so much about how I look, but about the hurt and the choice not a community or me can do in regards to aging. I mean currently medication and good food and good infrastructure can people have 90 years of life expectancy, if you look at workers in more shitty situations they are dying like 20 years earlier. This is an injustice and it will stay an injustice in communism if there would be ways for people to live longer. That is a debate and choice that has to be then be done.
There is nothing holy in the arbitrary life expectancy that material conditions and evolutions "gave" us. I do see how a "change" in population might be seen as beautiful, but I believe that we will not become immortal (but even if we did), so it just is a question about communist reproduction of society. It might ensure that more people can care for a child? In any case currently it is mostly utopian, but the reality is that we can increase the life span of people by decades as society. That is something that Cuba does and they have my support for that. With medication that is upcoming people will likely have a higher quality of life till the climate catastrophe disrupts the production of those, how to distribute them for me is an analogous question. Especially since a few comrades of mine would be dead already without medication.
Nah bro just let them die bro.... It'll be more "beautiful" that way 🤣
I swear the whole "leave nature alone it's more beautiful if we all die without medical technology" is some real western leftist BS.
I'm dying.... LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
You are putting words in my mouth in bad faith. Nowhere did I mention anything about medical technology being unnatural.
What I said is aging is natural and normal and not something that needs to be addressed by medical technology. Those are very different statements.
if we could treat it, we would, and then we’d call it a disease.
Bingo
So what about age-related (more like age-caused) diseases? Should we not do anything about them? Instead of treating the symptoms, why not address the cause? I don't see this distinction you're making. It seems like an arbitrary one, since a lot of diseases and conditions are "natural."
Let's say we eliminate myopia, either with lenses or lasers, and we all see like we're 10 for the rest of our lives. No more blurriness, no more inability to read.
I believe that would be a worse state of the world. We will have lost something beautiful.
Aging is the accelerating breakdown of your body and often your mind. It’s inherently bad. We accept it because we can’t change it and accepting it makes us happier.
The only perk of aging is it signifies your life experience to people around you. But it’s not even that much experience! By the time we hit 80 we’re still babies who’ve hardly seen or done anything.
Conversely, there's also the fact that there are plenty of people over 60 (or whatever cutoff age defines "old") that act like complete immature babies. Think of boomers yelling at the waitress because of some deficiency with their meal.
Exactly! Some people barely get a chance to grow as human beings before they’re dead. Even the wisest of us could probably get much wiser if we lived longer.
Boomers being boomers is a key driver for why we are having this conversation in the first place. Why would a society without elders value aging?
aging and life experience are two things that happen to be linked but don’t need to be in theory. An 80 year old who is physically 20 has no less life experience than one whose body is falling apart
nah aging sucks and if I could be young my whole life I would be