I ask this in good faith, and I do not mean to bring about struggle sessions with this question (keep it civil, please :). I'm writing a sort of mini-essay on a certain topic (Edit: not anymore, I lost my writing appetite), and veganism fits into that topic (I'm keeping it vague because I'll probably post it here and I don't want to spoil the whole thing). If people are on the fence and others want to know more about what Veganism is and why they should consume in that way, I would be grateful if others more experienced and well-read on the subject could provide resources or counter-reasons. I feel like a lot of the things I believed before going vegan turned out to be misconceptions, and it doesn't hurt to be more educated on a subject, right?
Edit: I need to take a break from the internet again, if my brain wasn't fried already it is now (not anything any of you started, I brought this upon myself)
and I do not mean to bring about struggle sessions with this question
That's exactly what's going to happen and I kind of doubt you were totally unaware of that fact.
I mean, I knew it was a possibility, but I kind of did everything I could to prevent it. That's why I clarified my intentions going in while also asking people to be civil. It was good to see why people do or do not do something, and the beliefs that guide their reasoning, for myself if I ever have to abandon the consumption aspect of veganism and for others who I may have to educate in the future. I learned a lot today, and I think it's good to see other people's point of view when I live a pretty isolated lifestyle.
I knew it was a possibility
A possibility so high it borders on certainty.
Maybe you could notify some mods to prevent things getting out of hand?
Am not vegan. Reason: I like eating meat, eggs, and cheese.
Probably my least leftwing beliefs concern animal rights, although I do think the environmental concerns due to farming make a compelling case for the switch.
Mostly I think going vegan would be difficult significantly degrade my quality of life. I accept that veganism is correct from a moral and environmental standpoint, but I don't feel the moral urgency enough to enact it. My partner is not vegan either, so that's an additional obstacle. Basically, it requires a level of self denial that I can't really bring myself to do. I mostly keep my mouth shut about this because "I love my treats" is not a strong moral principle that others need to hear about, but since you asked
Same. I have a number of other struggles that mentally, take priority. Since money is scarce and I make only a fraction of what i used to, I need to keep food cheap.
That said, just as you, I realize that veganism is the morally correct position, and often find myself beating myself up for not doing it. I enjoy being morally correct.
Don't beat yourself up over it :). You're already better than many others admitting that it is important from an ethical standpoint. There are many others, including some who would call themselves educators or agitators, who don't think it important enough to discuss at all.
Vegan food can be very cheap, but it does get boring pretty quick when it's just chickpeas and beans as the base of everything.
it does get boring pretty quick when it's just chickpeas and beans as the base of everything.
skill issue
There are so many fabaceae that can be prepared in such a variety of ways that this should appear constructively absurd.
Another way to see it: "it does get boring pretty quick when it's just chicken and beef as the base of everything"
I don't think any meats can compete on price when compared to beans and chickpeas. I do think that cow/beef has a lot more possible configurations than beans though. And you can add great vegetable ingredients to beef. You can't add beef to a vegan meal.
That said, I'm open to vegan meals. It is a skill issue in that I am not as well versed in the recipes. What are your top 2? I like Daal and bean burritos.
What are your top 2?
Idk. I make a different bean chili in the pressure cooker every week with whatever veggies I can get and whatever variety of beans we have on hand (which is usually a lot because I'm fortunate enough to live in a place with an absurd variety of plant agriculture). We vary the profile of the chili between a few indian-ish seasoning mixtures, this tasty african mixture with a ton of cumin and ras-al hanout, mexican-ish spices, and a few other blends. I use this to make a lot of burritos and tacos. Occasionally we'll mix them into patties but that's a huge chore. When my partner or I feel bored with these, we pick a place on a map and try to learn a recipe or two from there and then mix a chili with that dish's flavors.
Aside from the chili, we've been making a lot of indian recipes:
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this shit is amazing, but it's a rare treat for me:
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It's tough when other people you are around present themselves as obstacles, it's actually one of the topics of the little essay I mentioned. I will say that any potential quality of life decrease would come from tensions surrounding people you know. It's also change that challenges existing norms, which I of all people definitely understand is extremely daunting.
Same here, plus it's harder to get protein in. I like to be strong. Per calorie, meat and dairy are generally the highest protein, natural food sources by miles.
I started taking a vegan pea protein powder for bulking and it provides more protein than I could possibly intake from eating meat.
2 scoops (10 tablespoons) is 80g of protein. It dissolves with water in a mason jar.
I am vegan and from an abolitionist standpoint too.
My veganism is something I've directly tied to my own oppression. I have a lot of intersections (black, queer, trans, neurodivergent, all that shit), and dehumanization has been a common theme of me feeling like my life is not worth it. People like me have been dehumanized throughout history, and lowering people to this status has been a constant tool used to justify oppression constantly. Non-human animals continue to be exploited because humans have established that they are allowed to on the basis of such hierarchical domination, hierarchical domination that scares me because of my own oppression.
I have become that more "radical pushy veg00n" with time, reading books on the matter (especially ones that tie it to leftism and social justice issues like race), watching videos that are highly informative, and of course, viewing documentaries when I'm emotionally able to (I'm a very sensitive person who cried simply seeing calves on a truck to a slaughterhouse, so I handle this with caution). I have no doubt that veganism is the correct position, and I find that every point a carnist gives to justify themselves not being vegan mostly ends up being a cope masquerading as an actual argument.
As far as living a vegan lifestyle goes? It's easy as hell. I don't see animal flesh and secretions as food anymore, nor do I want to wear animals or use any hygiene products that come with their expense. Veganism itself is easy; the hard part is getting used to it socially and getting frustrating questions. I also absolutely refuse to date carnists, so my dating pool is very narrow, but that's the least of my concerns. Even when I was going through some of my poorest moments (as I know "It's ExpeNsivE" is a common thing people say as if it inherently cannot be worked around), I saw no reason to contribute to such exploitation and cruelty. Beans, rice, pasta, other grains, and all sorts of vegetables got me where I needed to be.
It's these kinds of post that made me go vegan last december (3 weeks before christmas lol, kind of upended some christmas plans with my family).
Non-human animals continue to be exploited because humans have established that they are allowed to on the basis of such hierarchical domination, hierarchical domination that scares me because of my own oppression.
That argument is what made it finally click for me, if the capitalists can do to animals what they are doing now, why would I be safe? The cow is more of a comrade than the mcdonalds clown. My allegiance should be clear. I didn't even know about the more heinous aspects of animal ag, like what dairy cows go through. I actually just learned about that today. But it is clear, even without going into the tortuous details of animal husbandry, who is the oppressed and who is the oppressor and therefore who my allegiance should be to is as well. And once that thought appeared, I couldn't go back anymore. Either I had to stomach the hipocrisy and be able to live with myself or go vegan and going vegan was the easier route.
I don't see animal flesh and secretions as food anymore
That's a weird feeling for me, stuff that I used to love to eat now absolutely revolts me. That saying about "how the sausage is made" is a literal fact for me. For example I don't really have a moral argument against scavenging, like "what if an animal peacefully died in your arms" or some other contrived example omnis come up with, it just disgusts me.
the hard part is getting used to it socially and getting frustrating questions.
I still need to tell my wife that the "cute" farm and zoo books we have for our son gotta go and that we shouldn't accept animal ag propaganda as gifts from grandparents. Not something I'm looking forward too.
Also my first instinct after seeing a life end probably wouldn't be "Alright lets dig in! Finally! Vegan meat!"
Hexbear bullied me into being vegan.
I wasn't a little over a year ago. I knew the horrors of animal agriculture for years - seeing images of pig lagoons was a big part of my radicalizing as a teenager and I was a vegetarian for a bit in my 20s before I decided it was too hard while living with my parents. I knew it was bad but it wasn't a big priority for me knowing I would need to relearn how to shop and cook and eat. Seemed hard when all of society catered to omnivores.
The various vegan struggle sessions here made me realize I was being a big whiny baby doing something that I knew was wrong out of convenience, and also taught me more about "vegetarian" products like milk and eggs (they're bad, people!). So I decided to make the switch. I learned some new recipes and started reading labels while shopping. The fact that I also developed horrible lactose intolerance in the last few years didn't hurt.
Anyways, shit was easy. I eat hella good food now and lots of tasty snacks and junk food and don't miss meat at all, but if I did I could just get some plant-based proteins cause those are pretty good now (I don't like impossible meat because it's too real).
Partner isn't vegan. We almost split up over it. He's like where I was two years ago and will freely bring up how veganism is morally correct in any relevant conversation, but also has other shit he's working on right now. He's still eating way less animals now though, since we eat dinner together and cooking two meals is inconvenient. I'm willing to wait and see what happens.
Pro-tip: Chinese food.
Anyways, shit was easy
This was my experience as well and I find it really interesting how most people I talk to seem to proclaim the opposite.
Pro-tip: Chinese food
Are there a lot of vegan Chinese dishes? (I'm aware Buddhist cuisine exists, but that probably wasn't the point...)
Pretty much everything I see on the average Chinese restaurant menu can be made vegan by using a different noodle if its made with egg like eggless lo mein, swapping any meat with tofu, and leaving out any oyster/fish sauce. There's not usually a lot of dairy and Chinese restaurants aren't in the habit of labeling their menus outside of maybe vegetarian, so those are things I use to cover my bases. I haven't really looked but I'm sure there's other interesting dishes that are specifically made with vegans in mind, in which case I'd love to hear them because the local Asian market is so overwhelming that I don't even know where to start.
I am vegan. These threads always genuinely upset me because I see so many supposed comrades making the exact same arguments justifying carnism that we constantly lampoon liberals for making to justify capitalism and even genocide.
At this point, I am no longer surprised by the kind of arguments liberals make that are so openly and obviously self-serving but at the same time totally lacking self-awareness. But it is still shocking to me when communists who have seen through so many other lies do the exact same shit. I know we can't expect "purity" and everyone is going to disagree with anyone else on something, but to me, this is akin to finding a group of people who are righteously anti-racist, anti-capitalist, stand up for the rights of BIPOC, and organize to feed homeless people but then turn out to be massive TERFs who would be happy if I were murdered. I just can't. It absolutely wrecks any sense of solidarity I had.
Definitely felt the same. A lot of the same arguments you’d see on the front page of reddit when veganism gets mentioned.
I'm slightly sympathetic, because carnism brainworms are deeply ingrained in us all from birth. I used to eat meat, I used to have some chuddy opinions on veganism. I've been there. most vegans have been there, but the way "leftists" just regurgitate this shit tries my patience.
I think that deep down it comes from a place of knowing vegans are right, and trying to avoid agreeing because that means you're an active participant in a horrible crime, and have been your entire life.
I'm mentally exhausted. I just don't have the energy to investigate the provenance of every supply chain input that made everything I buy. I can do the simple stuff like giving up meat and fish and dairy, and I mostly already have. But that's about all I can handle right now in my life.
That seems to be how it is for a lot of people, including myself. Perfect Veganism is borderline impossible under capitalism, and I am no "perfect" vegan (if such a thing is even possible). I think that even with eliminating animal products in food consumption is the most important step, and it's one that many people don't take, so it's great that you are working on being able to do that. It gets harder once things like exploitation of workers come into play, and it's generally much harder (if even possible) to avoid. Luckily (and hopefully), the only contradiction that would be posed in post-capitalist society is the consumption of animal products in food (and possibly in things like clothing), and those are the easiest things to adopt personally, and suffer more from cultural boundaries than those presented by capitalism.
This is really common.
It doesn't have to be all or nothing, you're doing great.
Yes, but it took me a decade after acknowledging that the vegans were right before I made the switch.
I struggle with change. Probably some cognitive block I have that makes me see literally any changes as impossible, even when I rationally know it's not that hard.
Change seems to be a big factor for a lot of people. I had a feeling it would be, change is really hard. That cognitive block could also potentially come from some sort of neurodivergence. At least for me, AuDHD tends to make any sort of change more difficult.
Yeah I have a generalized anxiety disorder, it makes me overestimate the difficulty and unpleasantness and especially social consequences of basically everything.
Went vegan during the pandemic because it cut through all of that bullshit, I think.
No. Cue death threats, but I don't believe killing animals is fundamentally wrong. The industry is problematic, and could/should be significantly improved, but welcome to all industries under capitalism.
I actually incidentally grew up vegetarian, so I eat tons of beans, can cook the veg meals and don't eat much meat now anyway. I'm just not convinced there's good reason to change.
All fucking power to vegans though, I make a point to bully carnists when they're overly smug about it.
Me breeding puppies into existence just to burn 'em all after getting your approval.
Thanks for reassuring me that it's not wrong!
I kinda get you there. My concerns with the current state of animal agriculture is currently more the human cost. The run-off from CAFO's, the literal slave labor these industries employ, the mass destruction of land to grow corn to feed pigs that will largely just be slaughtered to raise prices on the stuff that actually gets sold. But like, the occasional deer hunter, fisher, Eid celebratory meal doesn't bother me so much.
I don't believe killing animals is fundamentally wrong.
When is it wrong to kill a (non-human) animal? When is it wrong to kill a human?
I make a point to bully carnists when they're overly smug about it.
Do you ever bully yourself?
When is it wrong to kill an animal?
When the point of doing so lacks use value and/or harms the natural balance of the world. Trophy hunting, industrial agriculture, poaching for animal products of endangered species .
When is it wrong to kill a human? I feel like this is a useless trap question. Regardless of that, questions of just death have been argued over for centuries. I'll try and give some examples. Probably if they're too much like a fascist, sell out our planet for the purpose of money, sell out people for the purpose of money, kill like 2 or 3other innocent people or something?
Sometimes, but then I stop.
I'm in the same boat. I could probably say where that belief comes from within myself but i think that's usually just a waste of breath.
Pastoral agriculture is a farce in the way its used to hide away the crimes of Tyson and the like but as someone who's been tangentially involved with the collection and processing of my own meat it really just doesn't bother me much.
You don't think it's fundamentally wrong even when it's unnecessary? Do you believe there's any meaningful ethical difference between commercial killing on an industrial scale vs. killing for survival when there are no other options or killing invasive species?
I agree with vegans on 90% of things but the vegan position is ultimately arbitrary on what's allowed and disallowed.
Vegans, generally speaking, do not eat any animals. Oysters are not vegan despite the fact that they do not have a brain and their nervous system is extremely simple, they are more or less meat plants. They do not suffer nor have anything in which suffering could be inflicted. If such a simple creature is worthy of life, then most plants we eat are also worthy of life. If not, then veganism is not a moral imperative.
As demonstrated, the line that vegans draw around the animal kingdom is mostly arbitrary. Eating cows and other mammals is absolutely a bad thing. Poultry is a gray area. Most seafood is probably safe to eat. The fact that I'm called a blood-mouth for eating oysters makes me skeptical of whether some vegans are arguing in good faith. If someone's righteous indignation on what shouldn't be eaten ends at animals arbitrarily, then I think their views are based more on a social clique than science.
I do think they are better than the average person though even if their views are inconsistent.
How exactly is poultry a grey area? Have you met birds before? I hear what you're saying about oysters (even though I disagree), but making the same case for fish/octopus let alone birds is pretty fucking mind blowing.
(Not being overly contentious here. Please don't read it that way)
Many plant species, as the above poster alluded to, are at least as "sentient" as an oyster or other "lower order" animals. They respond to stimuli, etc.
There's also fungi. Again I could make a very compelling argument that many fungi are at least parallel with animals such as oysters on the scale of sentience.
Dietary reasons are one thing, I just mean on the side of "I don't want to eat an animal" how many people would say that but never object to eating mushrooms?
Is there a diet that clearly defines acceptable animals to eat based on perceived sentience? This would probably be my strongest argument against strict veganism. It's possible to be a non-vegan who eats animals like oysters, maybe snails, maybe even insects. Kinda spirals into "here's a small book I wrote on what animals I've personally deemed ok to eat" but I think the overall point is clear hopefully.
The reason I don't eat oysters as a vegan is because carnists are always looking for wedge issues and loopholes for why their favourite treat animal is actually fine to eat. When I'm out with friends and someone asks "you don't even eat oysters?" I say "no." specifically so that they don't get to say "oh well carpoftruth the vegan eats oysters but they're a super vegan so it's probably still fine for me to eat fish and look down on the steak eaters." Fuck that, I'm not giving them that satisfaction. They can carry their own water.
How exactly is poultry a grey area? Have you met birds before?
I have, they are capable of feeling pain and possess reasonable intelligence. I just don't consider them sapient in a way that matters. If you cut off a chicken's head, it will still act like a chicken. This implies that most of what a chicken feels mentally is instinctual. If you cut off my head and I came into work the next day acting normal, it would raise serious questions about the nature of human consciousness. Poultry shouldn't suffer unnecessarily, but I doubt it has much sapience. Thus a gray area depending on how you judge their intelligence and your own morals.
I hear what you're saying about oysters (even though I disagree)
Vegans always say that but not a single person has ever responded to that point in my 6 years of making it. If you disagree, do what the vegans I've talked with failed to do and address it please.
making the same case for fish/octopus
You shouldn't eat octopus. Everything I said about poultry applies 3 fold to fish. Less capacity to feel pain and less sapience. I don't consider a creature that acts entirely on instinct to have any right to life.
If you cut off a chicken's head, it will still act like a chicken.
This is literally the stupidest thing I've ever read on hexbear.
I don't think you know what veganism is. Poultry is not a grey area at all. None of the things you listed are inconsistencies. "Dont eat animals, don't support the harm of animals." It's fairly simple as a line.
Most agriculture exists to make animal feed, so not eating animals would still reduce harm if you insist on the "but what about the plants oyster vuvuzella" thing.
This is like when libs argue against their totally made up versions of what communism is. Would you argue that eating someone in a vegatitive state should be vegan? That's absurd.
None of the things you listed are inconsistencies. "Dont eat animals, don't support the harm of animals."
Yes it is, why is your line animals? Why are oysters so obviously worthy of life but not complex plants and fungus? Vegans claim that just because an creatures nervous system is arranged different, it doesn't mean that it's not worthy of life. Why does this not extend to complex plants and fungi?
Because there aren't yet alternatives to consumption of plants. We know for a fact that animals suffer, feel pain, feel emotions, and have thoughts. We can reduce that harm easily.
And once again, most farmed plants go into animal feed. Your arguement still supports veganism.
Your arguement also implies that cannibalism is fine, because plants also suffer. Slavery? Also okay under this reasoning. Literally everything can be justified by this logic.
At what point does this line of reasoning end? Because there's no current way to achieve perfection, we should just stop trying. Leftism is over I guess? Nothing can ever be less bad, because fungus might be unhappy with us. Shut the site down, I'm off to go eat a Palestinian child because my fucking lettuce isn't 100% ethical.
I'm rather confused.
This statement:
Eating cows and other mammals is absolutely a bad thing. Poultry is a gray area. Most seafood is probably safe to eat.
Are you saying this is what vegans believe or it's what you believe? I think eating all of those are bad things, period, and I'm a vegan. The statement you put before "the line that vegans draw around the animal kingdom is mostly arbitrary" makes it rather ambiguous though.
Not three same person, but the demarcation between what should be OK to eat, and what - not - they baked most sense to me, is the capacity to experience pain or emotions.
So I see no substantial moral difference between eating plants or invertebrates, for example - neither can feel harm.
That said, fish and chicken can experience pain or emotions the same as cows and pigs.
So I see no substantial moral difference between eating plants or invertebrates, for example - neither can feel harm.
octopodes have capacity to feel pain and likely experience emotion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6K1kVUct24
OK. They have a brain to feel them with. If you're objecting to imprecise terminology here, I'll give you the point, but I don't think that affects my basic point any (I'm not a biologist, I meant insects and the like - though don't take that as definitive either; maybe someone knows an insect with a brain, too).
Insects also have brains. Some arachnids have the capacity for fairly complex cognition (e.g., the portia spider's hunting behaviors, jumping spiders communicate with eachother and in my opinion, engage in playful behavior).
The issue isn't with your terminology, but rather with what it reveals about the imprecision/inconsistency of your reasoning on these matters.
If you're going to draw a line at eating beings that can feel the harm done to them by eating, it might serve you to explore that boundary more thoroughly.
That phrase describes the lines I draw in my personal consumption of animals. I said previously that vegans don't eat animals.
No but am sympathetic and taking steps in that direction. I support any policy proposals that make it the easier choice.
and it's easy
