I was raised reform Jewish and am half Jewish by family history. I have ancestors who were victims of the pogroms in the Russian pale of settlement – specifically, all four of my great-grandparents on my father’s side, along with their parents (my great-great-grandparents). When they were children their families fled and eventually resettled in the USA.
There is another place that they could have gone instead: Palestine. At that time it was still part of the Ottoman Empire, and some of the displaced Jews of that time did elect to go to Palestine. As it happens, my ancestors chose the US, but they could have gone to Palestine if they’d wanted to.
The fashionable posture on the left to take towards Israeli Jews recently has basically been a combination of glibness and vitriolic hatred, often reaching the point of wishing death upon them (examples: 1 2). I don’t know… I just can’t really feel good about stuff like that. The fact that my family ended up in the US and not Palestine is really just a quirk of fate. I don’t think that my ancestors were, like, morally better people for choosing the US over Ottoman-era Palestine. (And given the recent uptick in “Turtle Island” discourse, it seems like a fair number of leftists believe my ancestors shouldn’t have been allowed to resettle in the US either.)
I think that Zionism (with the possible exception of cultural Zionism) has generally been a noxious idea throughout its history. I don’t think the state of Israel should continue to exist as it is currently constituted, and I think the near-ubiquitous racism among Israelis is shameful. But I also don't think that every Jewish person who moved to Palestine in the last 150 years was a bad person for doing that, and I’m not prepared to circle-jerk over the deaths of people that I have a fair amount in common with historically.
Am I missing something? Have I been hoodwinked by Zionist propaganda?
Statistically? Yes.
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Go ahead and don't hate the Israelis who take a principled stand against the bigotry, colonialism and apartheid and are actively fighting their state. There are about three or four of them, but you have my full consent
And given the recent uptick in “Turtle Island” discourse, it seems like a fair number of leftists believe my ancestors shouldn’t have been allowed to resettle in the US either
This strikes me as extremely bad faith. Nobody is advocating evicting anyone or deporting anyone. You need to reframe this for me to engage in any way in good faith.
join_the_iww was the one who three months ago posted "Why do leftists make fun of anarcho-primitivism while also having positive views of indigenous movements?"
I mean, bless his heart, really, but by God this fellow seems to just be completely oblivious to Indigenous issues. It makes me wonder how much he can actually say about the land he stands on...
Yeah that's also really bad framing. Indigenous people aren't primitive that's racist as fuck.
It has nothing to do with "the Jews" and everything to do with racist murdering fanatics and thieves.
This letter signed by Einstien almost 80 years ago. Still very much and worse today. I believe Einstien and this groups predictions were correct and modern
is a fascist state that must be resisted.https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/einstein/1948/12/02.htm
The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin's political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.
Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin's behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement.
....
The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.
Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model.
During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.
The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.
The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a "Leader State" is the goal.
In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin's efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin.
The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.
Yes and given the "turtle island" bullshit you should feel bad for asking.
exception of cultural Zionism
All forms of Zionism is racism as Zionism itself is settler colonial ideology. Instead of confronting Europe's antisemitism deep within its core, Zionism posits that all Jews must be cowards and submit to the same settler-colonial worldview of statecraft. In attempting to manufacture an arbitrary Jewish nationality, Zionism erases the uniqueness of the diaspora and the struggles of individual diaspora communities. Please notice that Zionism only gets popular when Jewish corpses get piled up, it was never about justice.
morally better people for choosing the US over Ottoman-era Palestine
They are, Zionism in its early stages was a terrorist organization that would commit attacks on the local Palestinian population. Zionism only succeeded with the European Holocaust. The US is a infinitely better option than joining Jewish proto-ISIS.
But I also don't think that every Jewish person who moved to Palestine was a bad person for doing that,
Intersectionality, these Jews are still Europeans who have no right to settle on the land, they still internalize their European worldview of settler subjugation and domination. Moving to the US would still be a better option than joining in a soon genocidal fascist replica of the same terror that forced them to flee. Why do Palestinians have to suffer for the actions of European antisemites? The Zionist is the European antisemite.
Of course, you're partially correct, Israelis are not the problem, they are a symptom of settler-colonialism, racism, and capitalism. But bombing Israelis and making them fear for their lives is the only language a settler will understand. All Palestinian/Arab violence against the State of Israel is in self-defense.
And given the recent uptick in “Turtle Island” discourse, it seems like a fair number of leftists believe my ancestors shouldn’t have been allowed to resettle in the US either.
Huh?
you elaborate on what you mean by this?
The use of armed conflict, enslavement, and settlement of lands. You'll hear Zionists say that since they've been in the land for over 70 years that they have a right to it and you cannot take them away.
It's ironic because really no one is going to take them away. But they've internalized this view of the world of being the oppressor, that they can only see Palestinians as being the same oppressors to them.
Is the exact same paranoia that is common in all settler countries in Western Europe, in the United States of America and Australia.
For instance, would you consider.
Yeah, Europeans don't know how to do diplomacy.
What view of statecraft do you support as an alternative?
I'm hugely in favor of the Chinese view of diplomacy, especially in the win-win diplomacy, where foreign policy is non-interventionist and seeks the best interests of all parties.
China has demonstrated that this type of diplomacy is not only possible but highly valuable in creating a better, more just world.
While the US stays paranoid that its enemies that it's created will do the same sort of crimes to it, China doesn't seek revenge but only to make amends.
If anyone displaces and kills Palestinians, I'm gonna hate them, if anyone even tries to justify the displacement and murder of Palestinians I'm gonna hate them
Not all Israelis fall under that category, but most do, because Zionism at it's core (including cultural zionism) cannot conceptualize Palestinians as human beings of equal standing, that would defeat the whole purpose of the ideology which is to nihilistically role-play as some Iron Age kingdom the Romans dismantled, but conceptualized under a 19th-20th century fascist white supremacist framework, the ideology makes no sense and can't function if Palestinians aren't dehumanized
And nobody cares what some proto-zionist did a 150 years ago, people are horrified by the genocide being carried out by zionists TODAY and it has to be defeated like any other form of fascism
it seems like a fair number of leftists believe my ancestors shouldn’t have been allowed to resettle in the US either.)
Also, what does this even mean?
I think theyre referring to the fact that America is/was a settler state so we shouldnt really condone immigration to America either since its founded on stolen land.
I'm just a white guy but I think that people who are persecuted should be welcomed anywhere; theyre refugees
Yeah I suspected it was some bad faith strawman nonsense like that
The fashionable posture on the left to take towards Israeli Jews recently has basically been a combination of glibness and vitriolic hatred, often reaching the point of wishing death upon them (examples: 1 2).
This is not true and neither of your links even begin to support that. I can tell how untrue it is by how you were unable to find any actual evidence of it. That Hexbear thread has absolutely no "wishing death upon Jews" in it. And I don't even know what you are getting at with that Tweet.
Just awful for you to attempt that.
It's mostly the political entity of Israel that we hate and the effect this has had on the people, and not each individual settler but the act of inhabiting another people's land.
There's a real Nazi germany hive mind going on there so it's pretty hard to sympathize with them right now generally, but that doesn't mean that there are no people in Israel who are against all this and believe that Palestinians should be free.
Sadly for them though because of everything Israel has been historically, everyone who hates imperialism will very justifiably cheer on as the genocide state is torn apart piece by piece when it's time for it to reap what it has sown. They should either gtfo (which should be much easier compared to a Palestinian who is locked in the target zone), or join the resistance and fight against their own state
Do you hate German nazis of 1930-1940s? Would you have hated them if you lived back then?
If your answer is 'yes' to either of those questions, then not hating genocidal Pissraelis (as opposed to the people who do not join the Pissraeli SS force and who do not otherwise take action to harm Palestinians) is hypocritical.You're average Israeli is more or less irrelevant. Material interests fuel bourgeoisie governments, not public support. Hating individual Israeli citizens doesn't accomplish anything one way or another in terms of resisting genocide.
Yeah lmao, fuck every single Isntraeli. They're a nation of :
murderers
spoiler
rapists
and the best among them are thieves.
They need to get the fuck off indigenous land 😘
Edit: put the CW: SA behind a spoiler
I agree with you but please cw stuff that references SA. There are comrades here that appreciate it.
Hey quick question, if the Israelis weren't on indigenous land using billions of dollars to do a genocide would people still feel violence is appropriate? I abhor violence, but I could never see someone backed into a corner by violent, cackling racists with guns having seen their friends & family butchered and tell them to turn the other cheek. I could never see the Yemeni forces intervene in a scared teenager's surefire demise, tell them "you are not alone," and think they're the villains. It's a grizzly, heartbreaking situation, but a riot is the language of the unheard. It is on the Zionists, the settlers, to cease the violence, not the other way around. Every bit of violence against an illegal occupation is legal as far as international law is concerned. It's the finding out part of fucking around and finding out.
The moral imperative is always upon the powerful, never upon the powerless.
Anyone who equally blames the powerful and the powerless for a moral failing does not have any practicality in their morals.
I IRL met two Israelis that avoided conscription and are arguably pretty OK. The rest have all been massive fuckheads. Like pushy, ignoring boundaries, etc. I run into Israelis now and then and they're some of my least favourite people. I'm not even afraid of looking racist, most Israelis are personally pretty fucking shitty.
Like any settler country, the only decent people you're gonna find are those that fully reject it.
