Maybe also got some growth from other communists on fedi seeing us and joining ig
Idk, I'm just not built for dunking ig
o7 to all of you who've gone through the effort to write big explanations of stuff for passing liberals to see though
We have found old comrades and new ones.
Yes the libs outnumber those we find, and yes it is an endless battle. But it's worth it.
Show
People that are open minded get good responses. People that are not get shit responses.
There is literally no point in attempting to reason with people that do not want to be reasoned with. Libs worship civility, even when it's with fascists.
People that are open minded get good responses.
Eh. A good portion of hexbears are terminally dunk-brained. We've been getting obvious satire posts in the dunk tank for ages because people are so eager to dunk on anything they see.
Being civil isn't the issue. Participating with intent to actually listen and learn is.
This is exactly the point I am making. You think we should respond nicely to people who are NOT participating in good faith, just because they're being """"civil"""". I'm not wasting my fucking time with people who clearly aren't open to hearing what I have to say. There are people who ARE open to hearing what I have to say and they get a genuine response, with sources, and a conversation, and things are learned.
Libs can't tell the difference between each other and the literal actual fascists around them and it's infuriating. Which comes from incredible levels of political illiteracy and deferring all of their opinions and political education to media owned by billionaires.
Please calm down, I wasn't telling you to do anything...
Mate fuck off yeah? You see a single swear word and tell me to calm down like I've just committed a sin. I grew up in squats this is how I talk. I am not changing the way I speak in order to appeal to middle-class people from privileged backgrounds. This over-reaction to the way different people speak and the demand that people speak with very specific white kkkracka middle-income mannerisms is just classism.
Listen to the content of what people say. Not the tone in which they say it. Stop tone policing people. All it does is shut everyone out of conversation that doesn't come from a very particular white suburban upbringing.
You yourself admit people are more swayed by flavour and attitudes than anything in debates so having a bad attitude will just at best make you two look bad
No you see, that's what I don't admit. I firmly believe that being harsh with the libs that won't open up is an effective tool, it makes them uncomfortable, and by making them uncomfortable they eventually change in search of a new comfort zone.
Liberals entire thing is "uphold the status quo". This is the position of pretty much every single politically illiterate liberal who really doesn't understand what any ideology actually is. They change their shape in order to fit themselves into whatever the existing social paradigm is.
This is why LGBT people got absolutely nowhere with liberals until they literally bullied them with riots and pride parades saying a big visible fuck you to everyone that ever tried to make them invisible. They could not be asked to change they had to be bullied and forced. Once the social paradigm is changed they then accept it.
This is why anger and cancelling on twitter became a thing. It bullied liberals into new social paradigms.
This is why it works for dirtbag leftists.
And this is why they picked up guns and shot at whoever the nazis told them to shoot at. Not because they were true believers. But because mussolini or hitler and every other fascist simply bullies them into a new social paradigm... and once the paradigm is changed they accept it.
Liberals are absorbomorphs. Their ideology is absorbomorphism.
Bullying works.
Don't try to defuse situations by telling people to "calm down" it will 100% of the time escalate the situation.
What you're saying makes sense I suppose I've just never seen that happen with someone else.
You've seen it happen. Gamers used to tell everyone they were gonna r**e them, liberals all used to be transphobic (ask any trans person what engaging anywhere on reddit used to be like), lgbt people in general used to receive hate from everyone libs included, etc etc. All these changes did not come from convincing people nicely, they came from forcefully creating a new social paradigm and demanding people to accept it. People can either be uncomfortable, or they can change in order to find comfort. This is what people do.
When it comes to engaging with people regarding ideology such as socialism, this has to be viewed in a hollistic way. There is absolutely 0% chance I can convince the shithead who is gish galloping the usual 30 different propaganda points about the soviet union, stalin, blah blah blah, into engaging with me in good faith. It just can't be done. Whether they're being "civil" or not. Making interactions with these people unenjoyable and uncomfortable for them has the potential to make them change the way they interact with the next socialist they come across. It has the potential to make them act differently because they don't want that uncomfortable experience again. None of our interactions exist in a vacuum, I am not the only socialist you will ever interact with, you will meet hundreds more during the course of our lives, and that future interaction will include decisions you make based on this interaction. A horrible interaction one time gives way to a more positive interaction next time, where that person says "wow I wish someone were as civil about it as you are, last time I got really abusive people" completely ignoring the fact they were being a dick and there was no reason to waste much time/effort on them.
This is the crux of why bullying works. And also why a broad range of tactics is beneficial to the movement.
But it's true that major cultural shifts in things are enforced. Honestly I didn't really notice before you said it to me.
Successful marginalised people that improve their conditions don't bargain for it with convincing arguments. They take it.
Gamers used to tell everyone they were gonna r**e them
this needs a content warning/spoiler
If your aim is to convince, its useful to be calm and respectful regardless of how rude or disingenuous the other person is
Honestly I'm not sure this might even be true because of how poisoned our culture is. People enjoy watching assholes trolling other people. People love watching people insulting somebody else if it's in a humorous manner. Many people have admitted that they stuck around and checked out r/chapotraphouse because they found the community culture hilarious and fun
The most popular livestreamers are overwhelming douchey and rage on camera all the time
If we want to reach the younger generation, we have to be witty assholes
Appeal to emotion works just as well or even better logic many times
I do be nice and nicely explain things to people who seem like they have an open mind and are asking in good faith out of curiosity though. I feel like directly answering those willing to learn and making a mockery of the unwilling is a good way to maximize the draw of our community
Also I'm so sorry about the photo, don't ask what happened there lol
🤦 okay, I'm going to just type out the website name in full this time so I can see I didn't mess it up
Please calm down, I wasn't telling you to do anything... I even said that it's not a pleasant thing to do
I think you read swearing as yelling when it's a different register as often as it is a different tone.
Yeah, that's understandable, I just wanted to mention for the sake of parsing our friend Awoo's tone.
As an aside, Awoo was also right that saying "calm down" is usually a bad strategy for deescalation if they are actually mad at you. Anger tends to come from frustration, i.e. a feeling of helplessness. "Calm down" tends to read as being condescending or dismissive and thereby only agitates people more in such cases. It's my experience that framing it as asking for a favor or suggesting that both of you modulate your tone (not by just saying "let's calm down") can work better because it implies a recognition of agency or equality between you or the other person.
I'm absolutely not good at diplomacy, so take it with a grain of salt, but I felt obligated to suggest an alternative if I'm going to say something is not a good idea.
Just because you can't tell doesn't mean that it's your fault. There are lots of reasons (notably ASD) that can make it hard to tell even if you aren't a) dealing with text b) from a person you don't know c) communicating in a different style than you're used to.
It'll be easier to improve if you don't blame yourself for things you can't help.
Honestly, I've had very little luck to get someone to calm down if they are actually mad at me, but I still try to try.
the only path there is to work out what they're mad about and productively, empathetically, and concretely work slowly towards a common ground while genuinely apologizing in specific for offense given. it's much easier when they're not mad directly at you, though, as it's more straightforward to establish empathy.
deescalation is hard in online stuff. IRL, you can establish empathy and shortcut the angry response by asking people how they're doing, what they need, etc., getting them to think about the present rather than whatever is riling them up. maybe something similar could work in online discussions if couched carefully. it only works if they're not mad at you, though.
Hi, I saw you in another thread and you seem cool and here in good faith, so I'm sorry that you're getting dunked on. We're a little high-strung and defensive right now because we're getting used to federation, so there's a bit of friendly fire. However, there is a reason that we're like this.
Here's a quote from Jean-Paul Satre about far-right debate tactics:
Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.
If you are too attached to using a logical approach and giving the other side the benefit of the doubt, if you engage on their terms and let them define terms however they want, you've alreadly lost. No matter how many of their concerns you address, they will always come up with another. You'll just end up looking like a nerd or a crank, while at the same time lending credibility to them by engaging with them. But if you don't engage, you leave them unchallenged and it makes it look like you're afraid or have no answer.
The solution to this dilemma is Pig Poop Balls. PPB, along with dunking and rudeness, is a our way of keeping people on the straight and narrow. In theory, it's not supposed to be a first approach unless the person is obviously trolling. Ideally, we make our case with logic and evidence, but then when someone deviates from that and starts trying to redefine to terms of the debate, that's when we start bullying. We want two things to happen: first, we want to make our case effectively enough that people can't just write us off, and second, we want people to feel like they're not entitled to just say whatever nonsense they feel like and have it be respected and taken seriously. After all, an informed, well reasoned, and evidenced based position occupies the same amount of space as random nonsense. If random nonsense is tolerated, then it will dominate, because it's much easier to produce. So the proper role of PPB and bullying is to weed out the nonsense in order to have higher level discussions.
It's also, like, human beings did not evolve to be rational. A lot of the time, getting in someone's face and screaming at them is just more effective than trying to debate them. It's unfortunate and unpleasant but it does work. Generally though it's most effective when you have a reasonable, theoretical side to back it up, so that it's harder for people to write you off.
But yeah that culture developed when we were on Reddit and had lots of people wandering in and just reciting some baby-brained right wing cliche to try to own us, expecting us to clutch pearls or engage on their terms, and they generally had no idea how to react when we took them off-script. Then we were an obscure, isolated niche for three years, with only the ocassional troll wandering in, and so people got used to a higher level of ideological purity - we also had lots of disagreement and interesting discussions, but we mostly agreed on some basic ideas (which is kind of necessary to have higher level discussions). So now we're kind of... adjusting to the new situation, where a lot of people disagree with our positions on a fundamental level. I think (hope) it'll calm down (to a degree) in a week or so.
Not everyone is convinced by civility. This is true online and in real life. You might see civility as being reasonable and convincing while I see civility as being facetious and insincere.
Yeah, it'll fucking suck if blahaj.zone defeds us because they're the only none commy instance I like
Blåhaj zone defeded early from hexbear before federation was possible. The admin had a change of heart or something before it was turned on. The two biggest trans-supportive instances not being linked would be disappointing. Seems like specifically choosing to fed and turning off a block makes it more likely to not be turned off again as the struggle has been worked out.
Yeah because we started commie posting on 196, and so they went full "Fuck tankies" mode lmao
Honestly I'm happy I don't have to see unironic Vaush fans.
That reminds me, I need to port that Vaush facts bot from Reddit over to lemmy lmao
Ironic since the facts within it came from Hexbear in the first place. It was myself and tronaldo who decided to go full anti-vaush-aktion, making the bots using masterposts that existed on Hexbear as well as enough_vaush_spam then networking out across most of left-reddit to get the bot installed in as many places as possible.
From lemmy to reddit back to lemmy.
Oooh could you provide the full list? I'd be more than happy to host the bot.
Unfortunatley it's a complete mess now. The original masterpost is this one: https://hexbear.net/post/32425?scrollToComments=false
What you'll find with this post is that the links in the post are broken, something to do with our old version of the site and switching to the current lemmy one. We used to be on a fork.
I think the content is still there in the comments section, you'll just need to scroll to it manually.
I wouldn't recommend this though tbh I would recommend hooking up with people over on /r/enough_vaush_spam, particularly the mods, who are the most likely to be still active in this area (and thus up-to-date with newer facts). He probably deserves an updated version with newer stuff. If I had the time or could be bothered I'd probably build things as a timeline now, so people can see that he's still doing new shit and that all this isn't "in the past" as his community would like to pretend. If you have the motivation, please do it.
But yeah, that post is the first match that lit the fire.
Didn’t know that, used to see lemmygrad on blåhaj and they had a ‘users on a short leash’ policy some places. They don’t even have lemmygrad.com blocked.
apparently it now redirects to exploding-heads, which they do block
I don't personally want to dunk, but it is entertaining watching the dunk. And there's always more for me to learn from my comrades because I am a
Idk, I'm just not built for dunking ig o7 to all of you who've gone through the effort to write big explanations of stuff for passing liberals to see though
Yeah, honestly this is anxiety-inducing for me. I am simply not built for twitter-like endless arguing/dunking. It did bring out a bit of effortposting out of me, but at what cost? Especially since I have to watch out for what I say in case I say something horrifically wrong (because there's libs watching) or when there's a reply notification it could be some 🌐 bozo ready to fight.
I don't think you have to worry about saying something wrong: libs will find ways to shit on the most well rounded and honed arguments. Like yeah it feels bad when you're wrong but at the end of the day it's not a huge deal if you lose an argument. I definetly get the latter fear, it isn't something I've had to deal with since I haven't been fighting the libs this past week 😔
Trust that if some bozo is trying to start a fight, your comrades will be there to dunk on them.
I had a feeling this would really mess with the community which had developed here and it did, the thing I used this site for was to be able to hear from people outside the lib/fash echo chambers everywhere else online and now the coziness of that is gone and replaced with a bro troll energy. I don't care who you dunked on or how hard you did it, spreading the word of your great victory over some internet moron just means I get stuck hearing another stupid opinion even if you epically tear it apart, and if I wanted to just read stupid opinions I can do that on
or twitterExactly. I'm tired of forum drama. I don't give a shit what random liberals on the internet say. Imagine if I posted every single fucking tweet from random Elon reply guys.
Are they all dumb and easy to dunk on? Yeah. Does that mean everyone else needs to see them? Absolutely not. Please let us talk about systemic issues and global politics again instead of "oooh another lemmy user posted cringe" as if anyone cared.
So far federation has gone more or less exactly as I thought it would: the liberals didn’t magically see the light after the same big tent tactics failed to work the last thousand times, we’ve been flooded with random lib morons spewing their tired bullshit all over like a cancerous sludge.
Here’s what I wrote in the original federation threads:
I come to this site specifically so I don’t have to see a raging, genocidal liberal say you’re literally Hitler if you don’t support nuking Moscow. I come here specifically so I don’t have to deal with petty internet drama. Which we already have wrt struggle sessions, do we really want to make it worse? I don’t see why we should ruin the less-shitty nature of this site just so we can yell at liberals who will just block us. (They will be so owned for the one minute before your comment is removed.) If you want to get into fights on another forum sign up for an account on another forum. Many people like the site because it’s a safe space from reddit bros and their reddit bro takes. Just because some people think it would be funny to have libs show up here to be bullied doesn’t mean we should just can the years of curation and fine tuning. It’s an extra two minutes for you to go to beehaw or whatever and get into useless fights where it’s just you and the other guy telling each other to kill themselves. Pretending that telling libs to post hog on the internet is some kind of revolutionary praxis and quoting Mao about it is just kinda sad, if not incredibly funny. Pretending that it will effect any change at all is even funnier. Applying a text written in the 1930s about interparty disciplinary policy to your dumb online fights is some real brain genius shit. It’s such a perfect encapsulation of the western left. Terminally online event horizon.
I've seen 3 libs so far stop and question their assumptions and the systems around them, and then disengage from their debate-broing
have patience!
We'll convert the ones who are able to be saved and the lost causes will segregate themselves by banning and blocking and defeding us while shitting and crying and turning into a corn cob
I managed to persuade one to read on authority by just being nice to them so I count that as a personal dub for me
Being nice works sometimes, its important to know when to go hard and when to be gentle
From my observation, both at the same time gets the best results. I hesitate to call it good cop/bad cop but maybe that's what it is
the good part of that is that when they come into our territory we can just shell them with impunity
Yeah that's hillarious and all, but i can see how people still get tired of all the shitlib dinguses waltzing into our space being redditor debatelords. That they shrivel and turn into a corncob and drop gems like "i've got like 200 messages from insane tankies in my inbox" is amusing, but doesn't change the fact that we've lost having a niche to ourselves where we could completely avoid that particular way of starting self-aggrandizing internet fights.
I think we will have local-only comms before too long which will help things out
You can take the redditor out of reddit, but you can’t take the reddit out of the redditor
no disagreement here, i do not enjoy having these witless wonders shit up my inbox or my precious bear website
i only meant it in a silver lining sense
Did the Star Trek instance defed or something? I remember seeing their posts at first but haven’t seen them recently.
I’m also still wishing there were more hobbyist instances/communities to interact with, since this has always been a little lacking.
Looks like there are a bunch in the instances list. How it works, from my understanding, is that someone has to search for a comm and/or subscribe before the content actually syncs. I ended up subbing to all the hexbear comms so they show up on Mander but I’m the only one subbed to most of them.
Unfortunately, someone in the home instance has to find and interact first.
There’s also a bot that some instances run which automatically subs to all linked comms so they are searchable from within a home instance but not many run it.
:0 Could you link to the got repo for this bot? I wouldn't mind running for Hexbear
Found one, not sure if it’s the same one.
https://github.com/lflare/lemmy-subscriber-botThoughts? I can run this or Hexbear admins might be better to run it.
You should run it by the admins and our big beautiful tech-heads since that kind of stuff is in their domain
Cheers, I'm busy today so I'll forget if I don't come back to this later, mind giving me the usernames of the big busty beautiful tech folks and admins who'd be relevant to this discussion or tagging them in this thread?
I'll let them know and refer them to this thread. To clarify the question you're planning on asking them, are you asking for permission on running the above github link as a bot on here or to have it interface with your account in some manner?
GitHub link as a bot I think, yeah, no point in turning my week 1 account into the subscriber relier
So nobody in particular voiced any opposition so far and a few people liked the idea.
Nice, I'll give it about 12 hours to make sure there's no opposition and set it up tomorrow.
@LesbianHexbearSupercharger@hexbear.net is the bot I created, might do it early cause I have more time than I expected, idk feeling sexy, if something fucks up lmk or ban the bot and it should be okay
Much thanks for the info/advice! Also, that bot sounds super useful.
I would be amazed if blahaj doesn't defed you, any instance that defederates lemmygrad is going to defed hexbear eventually imo
Yeah there's 100% gonna be a "kick tankies out of 196" post at some point, a giant struggle session and then we get defedded
I think the novelty of dunking on those losers will wear out around the same time they begin defedding from us. The lib instances are already complaining about us, and barring a firm stance from their admins which will also lead to its own drama, they'll will eventually defed from us. I don't see the current vibe lasting for very long.
I know I shouldn't think of Hexbear as /r/chapotraphouse 2 but we did bring the best-in-class shitposting along with us. Now we also have retrieved the ability to evangelize
I habitually look for hexbear shitposting when browsing everything.
Eh I wasnt dunking that much anyway, the rest of hexbear was already doing a good enough job
What, are you folks planning on turning off your federation or something? Because if so, please tell your supreme leader that I'd hate to see you go.
Nah we're not turning it off, for better or worse. I'm just bored of making fun of anti communists and centrists now so I'm gonna stick to just posting locally and maybe in a few of the outside communities like on blahaj.zone because that seems to be one of the only actually interesting instances I've seen
I don't think so but a but the userbase seemed pretty split on wanting it. Ive enjoyed it so far though :)
I'm glad you like it! I remember seeing you all get piled on when you would post in the other instances before this. I'm happy you aren't alone now.
Yeah, I sometimes did post and comment on lib instances. This is probably my favorite example of commenting on a lib instance and weirdly enough getting upvotes. It's not much, but it's honestly surprising and I have to say this has me considering that they are thinking I was doing a bit. lol
Before federation it would be often that I'd get downvoted to oblivion by libs, that's absolutely true. I really am thankful for federation, you guys rule.
I mainly don't want hexbear have a reputation of being annoying and pestilential, instead of funny, welcoming, unwelcoming to bigots, and very far left.
Yeah I'm doing my part by trying not to be too aggressive and just participating in queer threads entirely apolitically
Is this internationalism?
