One thing everyone on here should agree on is if we want to get anything done, we need more people on our side. That's true regardless of what you want to do or who you consider to be on our side.

This post is an effort to start a more focused discussion about who is already on our side and how to bring more people in. The obvious danger is watering down leftist movements with unprincipled libs, but that's why a pipeline strategy is so important. It's not inviting a bunch of libs into the lefty clubhouse as-is; it's giving libs (and other groups) the tools to keep taking that next step in the right direction. It's not "everyone needs to 100% agree with me or I refuse to work with them in any capacity;" it's getting people started down the right path and then making it easy for them to keep going.


Who is already on our side? Who is "the left"?

You will sometimes hear takes in the form of "this person who describes themselves as a socialist, who does praxis of some kind, and who is more critical of capital than 95% of the U.S. population is actually a :LIB: -- I'm the One True Leftist and no one is as leftist as me." This type of take is counterproductive in the extreme. As the chuds in Michigan just showed, you're not starting a protracted people's war with a dozen of your buddies (and you're certainly not accomplishing any non-violent political action without broad public support). We need to grow our movement, and starting from the premise that the vast majority of the country (even extending to the vast majority of self-described leftists) is so liberal they should be treated with contempt is a failing strategy.

So who is "we"? Who should we consider to be "on the left"? I suggest the following definition:

If you are willing to seriously criticize capitalism, even some imaginary "pefected" capitalism, you are on the left. This means you should be treated with good faith and critically supported.

There is a real difference between those who will seriously criticize capitalism and those who will cheer it on despite dangling left-ish promises to get support. Note that excuses for capitalism ("that's just crony capitalism") or minor quibbles with capitalism ("yeah, landlords shouldn't be able to abuse tenants, but fundamentally there's nothing wrong with owning tons of property and renting it out") are not "serious" criticisms. That split between those who will seriously criticize capitalism and those who won't is where we should draw the line between who is broadly on our side and who isn't. The people on the left of that split have at least some theoretical understanding of the failings of capitalism and are at least willing to contemplate alternatives that go beyond "but what if we just did nicer capitalism?" We can and should criticize those people where appropriate, but we should (1) assume they are acting in good faith until there's concrete evidence to the contrary, and (2) support them (again, critically) because even if they aren't our preferred flavor of leftism, their success will help grow the left as a whole. To do anything less is a fast track to "I'm going to start a protracted people's war with a dozen of my True Leftist friends because I've alienated everyone else on the left" territory.

Who should the left appeal to? Who should be the targets of our pipeline?

The short answer: The left should appeal to everyone, because no one knows how to build socialism in the imperial core and we don't know with certainty who all might take the first steps towards leftism.

The long answer:

  1. While we should appeal to everyone, we should put different levels of effort into different groups depending on how likely leftward movement seems. It's one thing if a left politician goes on Fox News, or if a left organization tries to reach out to chud territory -- it's another thing if that's the primary focus of your strategy at the expense of groups that are more likely to move left. The most effort should be directed at the most persuadable groups, even if leftist arguments should have a presence in spaces where very few people will fully adopt them.
  2. We need different platforms to reach different groups. If you aren't into a certain left platform's style, that's OK (so long as they appeal to some other persuadable group, and so long as they aren't harming the left as a whole more than they're helping). We also need different platforms as experiments to determine the best overall pipeline strategy -- again, no one knows how to build socialism in the imperial core, so anyone out there trying to figure it out should at least be treated in good faith.

You mention different groups. What are these groups, and how should they be treated?

Attempting to develop precise definitions of every meaningful "group" in the country rapidly gets extremely complicated, to the point where its usefulness can easily decline. For our purposes, it's enough to talk about three groups of non-leftists that we should be appealing to:

  1. People who won't even listen. These are people who will reflexively, unthinkingly defend capitalism and American imperialism and a whole host of other awful things this country does. Chuds, the Blue Lives Matter crowd, your hardcore Trump supporters, and other types of people who are broadly reactionary, and who are broadly moving towards fascism. We shouldn't waste too much time with these people, but we should not let their ideas go unchallenged and we should leave leftist breadcrumbs for members of this group that are not yet fully committed. Some of them will peel off, and others might be softened up/backed away from reactionary bloodlust -- think of how Bernie could move some of this crowd to "I'll never be a socialist, but at least that guy isn't your typical full-of-shit politician." Some libs are included in this group, too; see the "proud capitalist" wing of the Democratic Party. Mercilessly dunking on these people is better than OK, we should assume they're trolls or otherwise wasting your time, and we should never support any politicians or groups of this type even if they superficially appear to be doing something good.
  2. People who will listen, but who will not move left soon. These are mostly libs and apolitical folks. When they are politically active, they at least see that Republicans are bad, although they don't fully understand why they're bad, the extent to which they're bad, the extent of the overlap between Democrats and Republicans, or how ineffectual Democrats are at either resisting Republicans or doing anything positive. The reason they won't move left anytime soon is they don't understand all these things, and it's our job to educate them. Yes, that falls to us; "it's not my job to educate you" will get us nowhere and get nothing done. We should be pointing out the contradictions in liberalism to this group, explaining leftist alternatives (this is crucial; otherwise we're just complaining), but otherwise keeping the theory pretty light. If you want to teach someone history, for instance, you don't start by throwing a grad school seminar reading list at them; you start with the basics and build from there. This is the crowd where a wide variety of left entry platforms is most useful. Some people will be most responsive to anti-war and anti-imperialist arguments, some people will be in the healthcare pls crowd, some people will enter through tenants' issues, some people will enter through living wage arguments, etc. Dunking on these people is OK to an extent -- tough love and good-natured teasing can be valuable for challenging deeply-held beliefs, but we don't want to cross over into alienating some of the people most likely to eventually move left. Humor, information, plenty of good-faith responses, and selective dunking is probably the best approach. Politicians and groups of this type should maybe be supported only if there is no meaningful left alternative.
  3. People who will listen, agree, and change. These are mostly people who have grown tired of liberalism or apolitical folks who never bought into the Democratic Party in the first place. Here, it makes sense to get into theory beyond "here's why capitalism is bad and what a leftist alternative would look like." It's important not to get into destructive pissing matches with this crowd even if you disagree with them. They're either on our side (if they have come around to seriously criticizing capitalism) or rapidly approaching. That's a big step, and gloves-off shitting on them over vestigial liberal ideas can still derail their leftward movement. "If they get turned off at this stage they weren't a True Leftist to begin with" is nonsense, as of course they aren't already your idealized True Leftist -- the whole point is that it's a pipeline, which means there will be some people who haven't reached the end quite yet. These people should be treated as if they're already on the left: with good faith until there's a damn good reason to change that.

"But what about the groups Lenin, etc. identified?" History is often informative, but we have to walk the line between not repeating old mistakes and an un-scientific view of history as a set of near-prophetic laws that will never ever change no matter what context they're applied to. There is nothing more alienating to potential leftists than making a good-faith effort to move left and being met with "oh you're a Social Democrat (for example) so you're really a Social Fascist." Serious leftist aren't dogmatic; they're practical and recognize the need to bring people in.

  • RNAi [he/him]
    ·
    4 years ago

    Great post, maybe we should have a community or tag to post things directed to radicalize not-even-socdem people

  • hogposting [he/him,comrade/them]
    hexagon
    ·
    edit-2
    4 years ago

    A note on apolitical folks.

    Appealing to apolitical folks is good, but be wary of (1) people who just want to talk politics but will never do anything and (2) the fact that significant chunks of any population, even in wartime, are more concerned with going on with the normal parts of their life than they are with engaging in politics. In the aftermath of Bernie's attempt to appeal to the apolitical crowd (which had some success, but evidently not enough) the left should seriously reconsider how much effort we put into reaching out to these people, and whether it is a good idea to build any sort of more involved non-electoral strategy around people who don't even vote every few years. We shouldn't write apolitical people off -- and again, no one has a proven answer on how to build socialism in the imperial core, and you never know who will decide to move left -- but we also shouldn't treat "maybe we should try appealing to the 100 million people who don't vote" as an easy answer.

      • Pezevenk [he/him]
        ·
        4 years ago

        This is exactly how I expected it to be tbh... And of course libertarianism is the second best.

        • hogposting [he/him,comrade/them]
          hexagon
          ·
          4 years ago

          I've spent way too much time on /r/libertarian (and tons of time around real-life libertarians, who tend to be less brain-poisoned than their online counterparts). My assessment is that most libertarians (like most people of any political persuasion) don't think too deeply about their politics. The ones who do eventually reach the question of "what would my libertarian utopia do with poor people?" There are roughly three answers:

          1. "If you got the government out of the way, there wouldn't be any poor people!" This near-fantasy is disconnected from all observable reality. Either they'll bounce off of this idea and never think too deeply about libertarianism again, or they'll land on one of the other two answers.
          2. "Fuck 'em, they can die for all I care." This is the starting point of your libertarian-to-fascist pipeline.
          3. "Well shit, they're still people, and shouldn't die of exposure under a bridge, and yeah, I guess private charity has never really come close to helping enough people out, and..." This is the starting point of your libertarian-to-socialist pipeline (although it's easy to get derailed into ACLU-style liberalism). Bonus points if you can get them to see how the institutions of private capital can be just as harmful as the institutions of an intrusive government.

          I bet we see the amount of ex-libertarians that we do because (1) libertarianism has historically been the catch-all for people disillusioned with Democrats and Republicans, (2) most people who sit down and think about the implications of libertarianism end up going somewhere else, and (3) thankfully, not all libertarians are dead-eyed sociopaths in the "they can die for all I care" camp.

          • 4_AOC_DMT [any]
            ·
            4 years ago

            Bonus points if you can get them to see how the institutions of private capital can be just as harmful as the institutions of an intrusive government.

            This is risky imo They often double down on their axiom that anything the government does the free market can do better.

  • SirLotsaLocks [he/him]
    ·
    4 years ago

    This is great, I think you hit the nail on the head on why its so hard to make a left pipeline,

    the premise that the vast majority of the country (even extending to the vast majority of self-described leftists) is so liberal they should be treated with contempt is a failing strategy.

    I can confirm this using me as an example from lets say even just 6 months ago, straight up I was a lib. If you asked me about capitalism I would have said it was the best system we've had, I did the great in theory bad in practice, I made communism no food jokes, I did horseshoe theory, I even didn't like bernie that much, I was gags yang gang.

    I feel like if I could get converted a large portion of libs could be. Won't stop me from dunking on them mercilessly though.

      • SirLotsaLocks [he/him]
        ·
        4 years ago

        It started when I found an ama for a federated reddit alternative called lemmy, the devs promised it wouldn't become an alt-right shithole and I got really interested, it had kind of a tight nit HN mood and I loved it. I think I started being converted by the lemmy devs, at first I thought they were extreme but over time I kept reading the stuff they were sending and I started to realize that the problems they had with capitalism I didn't have an answer to, and also a big part that pushed me left was the fact that weren't promoting inherently bad things, and that in fact they were actually good and things that should benefit everyone, compared to the horseshoe theory that would put them as bad as nazis. I still thought they were too extreme for defending china and the dprk, also didn't know how they could support stalin. I also wasn't super comfortable with how they banned a dude named panzerfaust because they were sus (muh free speech and all that) but I was also kind of ok with it because I knew the devs were doing everything they could to not let it become an alt-right shithole. They got me started but I had a lot to go. so basically I heard a huge subreddit got banned from reddit, the same one who got quarantined for saying slave owners deserved to die, and that they were going to create a lemmy instance.

        I joined the chapo discord literally just to follow lemmy progress, in the minute I joined I had no interest in the community I just wanted to see how long it would be till their discord came out. That didn't last for too long though because I actually started to enjoy the community enough that I started to chat in other places, mainly the 1 min general chat. This helped push me further as well. A lot of these pushed weren't people arguing with me or anything, I don't think I ever really got into arguments, it was mostly just being exposed to the ideas and being able to dwell on them and if I did have a question I would try and see if someone already said it (mainly because I did not want to sound dumb) but sometimes I would ask and I always got great answers, especially about china. When chapo.chat finally came up I still was very anti-china, but the china struggle sessions really helped push me over, I never really asked the questions, mostly other people asked the same questions. I would read through these several times but each time I was nudged a bit. I think it was about 2-3 weeks ago that I finally accepted china good. I still have a ways to go, theory to read, history to learn, but I'm so glad it happened.

        I'm so sorry if this is hard to read, I tried to make it make sense but I just woke up and didn't have coffee yet so it might be really rough. TLDR: I found lemmy, the devs were communists, they had some good points about capitalism=bad and how communism=good, I though china=bad and communism=hmmm chapo.chat comes out, chapo finishes the job.

  • CompactTie34 [he/him]
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    4 years ago

    aaand saved! great effort post. As someone who just recently transitioned from the second group, then the third group and then later discovered chapo chat I could relate pretty closely to this post.

    Hopefully we will soon see more posts like this. In my opinion, we have many leftist groups, organisations and parties on the left but also have no coordination between them (in the imperial core, just my observation). Perhaps we can use this platform to generalise and develop new ideas.

    • invalidusernamelol [he/him]
      ·
      4 years ago

      The lack of coordination between leftist orgs in this country is our biggest hurdle to growth. Using double labor on the same projects is wasteful. Being unable to coordinate member issues makes sexual predation easy, being unable to effectively organize is a death knell for leftists.

  • SunshinePharmer [he/him]
    ·
    4 years ago

    I'd like to add in those liberals that are so cocksure of their non-existent beliefs, that they are unmovable. They are like chuds in a lot of ways in their entrenchment and willingness to fight hard for.. basically nothing, or in other words, the status quo.

    I would also like to point out that it's possible to peel off chuds if you ask me. Guns would be a good in road. One thing chuds hate about people to the left of them, is they mistakenly believe that we all hate guns and want to take away the second amendment. Chuds are huge into privacy and being able to live how they want. If we could find a way to explain that lgbtqia people feel the same way about their privacy, and how they don't want to be singled out, it might work. Fundamentally speaking, they just want the same rights as chuds, libs and so on want. We could pick apart the merits of these so called rights later, but the point is to get them on the bus.

    After that, it's a matter of getting them active. Most chuds/libs I know don't actually do squat.

    • spectre [he/him]
      ·
      4 years ago

      Outreach to chuds is possible, I just think it's important to not waste your time if you arent getting anywhere, since many of them are immovable. I think something that would attract many of the ones who are moveable more efficiently is to build a more visible left that clearly distinguishes itself from liberals. Like 95 percent of Americans they are politically uneducated and prone to holding foolish incoherent views, but they are often stuck in it because they can see that liberals are foolish and incoherent (we can wish they would reflect on themselves the same way, but that isn't how it works).

      We know that socialism is more coherent than "capitalism, but with equality and diversity", but since socialists aren't a large enough or distinct enough group, it gets blurry (and the 10 layers of right wing propaganda that they live in don't help either). Maybe your experience is different than mine (I agree that it can happen), but it's much easier to grab a younger lib who already shareds common ground in ideas and show them that Democrats aren't taking them there (and work from there). Nationalism particularly can be a difficult but to crack with chuds.

      • SunshinePharmer [he/him]
        ·
        4 years ago

        That is something I try to do. Chuds and low information voters don't want to hear about textbook ML stuff. They are tired of the same ol talking points, and frankly I don't blame them.

        I consider myself a more nondescript leftist anyway. I think it's more approachable, and I feel like that's my role in all of this. I live in rural trump country. The people out here value different things than city people, and think city people are out of touch with what they would refer to as "working class values". That's where workers rights comes in. I try to explain the difference between liberals and leftists. I try to tell them.thst leftists aren't to the left of.liberals in the way that they are more into identity politics and other Libby shit. We are on a whole different axis, and some of the points intersect with their ideals. Guns is a great example. Not having a Dollar General on every corner is a good example. Land usage is a good example. If it's worth your time, there are many ways to get people talking and maybe get them to realize that trump isn't the answer, and is a knee jerk reaction to the failures of neoliberalism.

        To your other point about not wasting too much time on them, I agree. I try to find those that aren't treating conservatism like a lifestyle brand. I try to show them that changing your view on an issue or group of people is a virtue and if we all realize that a lot of people want the same things, like a good job, privacy, to be healthy, and to not have to buy a damn permit to build a shed on their own property. It gets a lot more nuanced after small issues like that, but I think we can get people there.

        A lot of chapos on reddit admitted to being a chud before this life. Others can take that path too. I think the chud to chapo pipeline is a larger gauge pipe than the lib to leftist pipeline. Liberals are more smug and sure of themselves than misc conservatives. I've always got the feeling that your run of the mill conservative doesn't really feel confident in their beliefs, and just want to be popular. I think trump showed that. He somehow convinced a certain type of person that has been marginalized and ignored by politicians that they were victims (he's kinda right in this regard) and they should stand up for themselves. The problem is all the hate and scapegoating of minorities that go along with it.

        • spectre [he/him]
          ·
          4 years ago

          I get you, and yeah I'm used to talking to city (suburban) people who are about the conservative aesthetic, and I don't want any city/suburban comrades to waste too much time with them (though they aren't all lost causes, some of them are able to cross over of course). Just a matter of caution and efficiency I guess.

          Sounds like you have your shit together and an audience who will at least hear you out which is awesome, so good luck with that!

  • leftofthat [he/him]
    ·
    4 years ago

    Great post I want to add to also bully the shit out of friends and family. It sounds corny but like "move two people left" is exponential growth.

  • Coca_Cola_but_Commie [he/him]
    ·
    4 years ago

    Alternative idea: we break down the population like this: Three MLs, three Libs, and three fascists all get together on discord. If I nonsensically assume that the US population has a perfect distribution between these categories we'll have something like 36 million discord channels. Then we, in our little gangs of nine, all get together and endlessly relitigate the history of the 20th century.

    No other action is taken.

  • spectre [he/him]
    ·
    4 years ago

    Good post, I was just thinking about this yesterday, and made a couple posts in the megathread about it (half-ironically, but I think we're on the same track) I'd be interested to get your thoughts on them:

    https://hexbear.net/post/37030/comment/302310

    • hogposting [he/him,comrade/them]
      hexagon
      ·
      4 years ago

      All of your points there are good, especially this one:

      I think something that would attract many of the ones who are moveable more efficiently is to build a more visible left that clearly distinguishes itself from liberals.

      Republicans have spent decades calling Democrats communists, and as a result most conservatives are primed to equate liberals with leftists. We definitely need to fight back against that. One way to do that is organizations like the DSA, and another way is making terms like "socialist" more mainstream and acceptable again. This is why critical support of the DSA and outlets that are wiling to talk about socialism in socialist terms is so important -- even if we don't fully agree with everything they're doing, they're helping a lot.

      • invalidusernamelol [he/him]
        ·
        4 years ago

        DSA is absolutely a part of the pipeline. Thousands of people have joined since Bernie dropped out, all looking for something better. All ready to listen. Join your local and start seeding ideas there. A lot of the time, you'll find out that a good portion of the membership is already quoting Lenin and discussing how best to organize outside of electoral politics (while still having a group for electoralism).

      • spectre [he/him]
        ·
        4 years ago

        Right, I touched on outreach to conservatives in my other reply, but I think that for the lib to left pipeline things are starting to get more and more momentum. The blurry line between lib and left needs to get firmly drawn, and radlibs need to be pulled across it. I don't want to see any more Warren supporting, "proud social democrat", YIMBY's thinking they're a "socialist" cause they have a DSA card. I expect a lot of Democratic Socialists, but some people need to have a choice forced on them for sure.

        I guess I'm just summarizing what I said in the other thread, but a two pronged strategic focus on education would be effective:

        • Fundraise and spend money on PR: use expensive consultants, advertising, and teach people to post effectively online. Educate outsiders on what you're about (go ahead and focus on "Democratic Socialism" for now, whatever, as long as the line ends with "workers control the means of production")

        • Educate internally, and get people to learn about what socialism is historically, theoretically, and practically. I wish we had wiki.chapo.chat set up so we could start a knowledge base, and even a cirriculum (which I fucked around with last night). Make radlibs take a few of the classes before they're granted membership.

        • hogposting [he/him,comrade/them]
          hexagon
          ·
          4 years ago

          The blurry line between lib and left needs to get firmly drawn, and radlibs need to be pulled across it. I don’t want to see any more Warren supporting, “proud social democrat”

          :100-com:

          What do you think of drawing the line at "serious critiques of capitalism"? That seems significant enough, clear enough, and it doesn't exclude too many people.

          YIMBY’s thinking they’re a “socialist” cause they have a DSA card

          This, I think, is a step too far. I would bet (although I admit my personal knowledge here is limited) that a strong majority of DSA folks have serious critiques of capitalism. They're at least calling themselves socialists and joining a real organization that directly challenges that Democratic Party from the left. Assuming both of those are true, I think they should be considered part of "the left." We should be constantly pulling them farther left and ensuring they don't backslide into half-assed liberalism, but they're worth working with.

          use expensive consultants, advertising, and teach people to post effectively online

          I think the end goal -- a strong, persuasive online presence -- is good, but the means you mention might not be necessary and would turn some people off (as it's too close to astroturfing). We can likely create that sort of online presence organically (we arguably already did with the old sub).

          I wish we had wiki.chapo.chat set up so we could start a knowledge base, and even a cirriculum (which I fucked around with last night). Make radlibs take a few of the classes before they’re granted membership.

          Fantastic ideas all around. If you want any help on the curriculum I'd be happy to help.

          • spectre [he/him]
            ·
            4 years ago

            (your first two points)

            I agree with you in the short term, since the material reality of the DSA and the American left is that a purge of social democracy is suicide. In the longer term entry requirements to the Workers' party (whether that takes the form of the DSA or something else) need to have a bit of rigor to them to ensure that things can actually get done, it's not something that can happen today though. And I do strongly believe that having a critique of capitalism doesn't mean you aren't a liberal. I would even say that communists (and/or other leftists) must have a critique of communism (or their own tendency) if they want to be well rounded. As long as it's not coming from a imperialist or western chauvinist perspective it doesn't make one any less of a leftist. Maybe we can hash this out at the 2030 DSA national meeting when this becomes a more relevant discussion though.

            I think the end goal – a strong, persuasive online presence – is good, but the means you mention might not be necessary and would turn some people off (as it’s too close to astroturfing).

            True, but when the establishment plays dirty, it makes me want to do it too. Especially after seeing how effective their respective political machines are. I understand why others would have reservations though.

            We can likely create that sort of online presence organically (we arguably already did with the old sub).

            We could. I think we need some sort of ROEs and coordination. For instance dunking on a bluecheck lib journalist (Klein or Nate Silver) is fine, but people (online leftists whether from the sub or "left-Twitter") love to do it on some random dipshit with 50 followers instead of educating them. Then the civility libs see it as a "bad look" (which it is) or "brocialism" (eyeroll).

            Fantastic ideas all around. If you want any help on the curriculum I’d be happy to help.

            Funny enough, I got bored and started hacking away on this. Let's handle it in DMs for now (anyone else is welcome to join too, just shoot me a message), and we can bring it out to the public if we end up getting anywhere. It's a good opportunity to have an educational hobby project, the way I see it.

              • hogposting [he/him,comrade/them]
                hexagon
                ·
                4 years ago

                That's a really neat idea. The cost is one big question, but another big question is where you'd get the content from. I wonder if it could be pitched to various lefty podcasts as (1) a good thing to do and (2) an ad for their content. If they chip in a small percentage of their Patreon money and allow the station to play their public content, that would solve most of the content problem, at least help out with the funding problem, and boost the number of people who listen to their shows.