I could go on and on about Adrian Zenz, his terrible methodologies; about terrorist groups trained by Isis and utilized by American for creating unrest in Xinjiang; stats about real population numbers in Xinjiang; about differences between American and Chinese anti-terror efforts regarding radical islamic terror groups; about infrastructure building in the area, investment by China; about the number of mosques per capita; about the preservation of regional identity that Xi is working towards; etc. Etc.
But, regardless, just saying that I don't believe that there is religious persecution in Xinjiang means, in their eyes, that I don't care about our Muslim brothers and sisters.
It's similar to talking about Hong Kong.
Libs use these places as tools to spread liberalism, so caring about the actual policies, people, and reality is a disadvantage to conversation.
How can I approach these subjects?
Maybe the better question to ask is: Why can't it be true that there is no mass killing taking place in XJ, true that Adrian Zenz is an idiot, true that the CIA is trying to take advantage of the situation, but also true that China's mass arrests of people before they commit any crime constitutes mass racial profiling? And true that that is different from what the FBI does when it frames an autisitic muslim teenager, or what France does when forces new muslim immigrants to take "acculturation" classes, only in the sense that it is taking place on a much larger scale?
You can critique western coverage of the issue without defending what is clearly an Islamophobic policy. Despite what some people on this site might tell you, anti-imperialism doesn't mean you have to defend Xi Jinping on every point, all the time, always.
Yes, I fully agree with this. It is really the straight up stating of millions of Uighur detainees, killings organ harvesting, and cultural erasure that gets me.
There is definitely something going on, and certainly there are detainees, and may be some abuses, but as far as I can tell, there isn't any credible evidence that re-education camps are not just education and detention facilities.
You're right that detaining people who do no crimes is bad - is that actually done?
You’re right that detaining people who do no crimes is bad - is that actually done?
Yes, definitely, even Chinese state media says they are detaining people who are "radicalized" or "susceptible to radicalization", not just people who have committed a crime (and beyond that, we should remember that some things which are considered crimes in XJ probably shouldn't be). In my experience, even the most hardcore members of the China brigade here mostly just nibble around the edges of this. "They get to leave the facility on weekends" or "they are taught how to be electricians" or whatever--none of which eliminates the fact that people are being taken from their homes, separated from their families, and laboring for pay that is far below even the (capitalist, exploitative) prevailing market rate.
Thanks. You bring up a good point that I forgot, about the labor. This has been a big media talking point. What is the truth there?
No one with access to this site knows for sure what "the truth" is, but given that inmate labor is pretty common in China (as it is in a lot of the world), and that the administrators in charge of these sites would stand to benefit materially from using the labor of the people under their control, our default assumption certainly shouldn't be "It's not happening." If even 20% of what's reported in Western media is true, then there's definitely a lot of forced labor happening.
But I don't ask that anyone believe anything in Western media, just that the next time someone here drops a 5000-word post sourced entirely from Chinese state media, random people on twitter, and the same two or three journalists, we treat those sources with the the same healthy skepticism we would level at the NYT.
The truth is somewhere between it being slave labour (western pov) and just them learning good skills that is applicable to the market in China (China's pov). Nothing is ever white and black I guess
Honestly, seeing how some people have reacted to this issue is pretty disappointing. On one hand, you have the types of Zenz and ASPI (in Australia) going full-on cold warrior. On the other hand, people should really have some compassion (isn't that what the left project is about?). Like /u/Staingvng says, indiscriminately locking up Muslims, even for the cause of anti-terror, isn't right at all. What China is doing can't be compared to what the Nazis are doing (as some liberals like to compare), but one can definitely criticise China's response without endorsing the US sanctions regime.
Hey, Muslim here too. From what I know of Uyghurs (and I have been looking into this for a long time even before it was big news), it's not similar to internment camps (imo). It is more like re-education schools, deradicalizing people who have been radicalized by ETIM. If you don't know much about ETIM/Panturkic Imperialism, definitely read up on it. It's been affecting and will affect worldwide Muslim issues for a while now and to come. Uyghur Muslims were being radicalized and there were a lot of attacks in China. The schools focus in deradicalization, teaching Uyghurs Mandarin and skills, etc. Things to help them better "assimilate" if you will. There are some issues with that of course. But Indonesia was doing the exact same thing, and Western news was praising it highly while now lying and saying these schools in China are concentration camps. America has bombed Uyghurs before. America has specifically pointed out wanting to create issues in Xinjiang specifically as it is full of oil. It is incredibly complex. It is even more complex if one doesn't read Uyghur, Turkish, or Chinese -- which a lot of old sources talking about all of this tend to be in.
Again, there is issues to discuss when singling out ethnic groups for reeducation. However, as a Muslim again, Wahhabism is something I never want to support. As a Greek Gypsy, Panturkish Imperialism is also something I never want to support. Is deradicalizing programs probably the best option? I'm not sure. But it is nothing like they say it is in Western news.
I highly recommen ** this ** article. It details descrimination Uyghurs face, as well as discussing the radicalization targeting them. This situation is horribly complex, in a way most Westerners/Americans are not used to handling historical context in. It's not even a thing Muslims can really claim to understand on the basis of also being Muslim; the history of Turkey/Central Asia/China are completely necessary to understand here. But I think it's really important to learn, even just Panturkic extremism in general.
Yes, thank you for this. I certainly don't want my question to come across as asinine nor as simplistic as good/bad. I don't support the detention of anyone on a cultural basis, but I know that the situation in china is being drastically misrepresented in western media as part of an anti-china propaganda campaign.
It is a complex topic, and that is what I want to clarify with people i know - that it isn't China bad, it is a particular strategy that China has developed to deal with an issue that has the potential to destabilize the west of their country.
It's something no one is ever going to agree on 100% because of it's intricacies. It's become one of those things I just don't even try to bring up to liberal friends. I find HK protests easier to tackle than this. It's too many facets really.
Sorry if it seemed like I was saying you specifically can't have an opinion because of the history thing, I didn't mean that. I was moreso talking about how Western Muslims oversimplify this specific situation, but I didn't mean you specifically.
That first point is true. USA and their alphabet agencies funnel money and propaganda into Xinjiang to foment secessionist movements and political violence. They want people poor and radicalized.
what would you prefer a country do when stuff like this happens?
https://time.com/11687/deadly-terror-attack-in-southwestern-china-blamed-on-separatist-muslim-uighurs/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/24/china-uighurs-blamed-as-18-die-in-xinjiang-attack-says-report
I live in a place where a dangerous radical ideology (white nationalism) has prompted a terror attack that killed people. there was nothing done to try to stop further attacks and uhh white nationalism is still out here killing people. I dont believe in locking people until its the last resort. but I also don't want actual terrorists to go on spreading terror either.
I'm not trying to tell you ehat to think here though. I grnuinly want to know what you think a government should do when faced with a problem like this. because we sure as fuck need something to get the white nationalist terrorists to stop here.
Dodging the question, i see. well let me know if you do develop any strategic thoughts on it.
Personally speaking, as someone who lives in a city that white nationalists constantly terrorize and have killed people in, I'd feel a whole lot safer if yes. the government WAS monitoring these extremists groups and detaining them if they posted too edgy shit online. we're constantly finding proof of a nazi or incel terrorists posting on 4chan and shit after they kill someone so its not like it would be terribly hard to moniter that. Imagine if the FBI like actually did that instead of inciting minorities to commit crimes so they can arrest them.
Certainly "just keep letting terrorists kill people so i keep my ideology pure" is NOT the safe or civil solution though.
Wtf is your issue?
Some folks seem to really want an excuse to become the oppressors.
Muslims in America aren't committing terrorist attacks.
Why are you getting defensive? I'm just saying that locking people up is not ideologically pure. its not a neat or nice solution. But it is superior to just letting terrorists kill people.
Since you live in America, like me, you should be aware that white nationalist terror attacks are common. Let's just talk about those. what is your non-prison solution for fixing that problem? Nazis still gonna nazi even after we take over, after all. They're going to continue to attack and kill our comrades. If you had the power of the state behind you, what would you do to protect your people?
what is your non-prison solution for fixing that problem?
My solutions is to lock up the Nazis, after they've proven themselves to be Nazis.
My solutions is NOT to lock up all white folks in the country for "re-education".
so after they kill people? or is them posting 1488 with nazi symbols a bunch online proof?
because we're currently doing the "only lock up nazis that kill people" thing and it has done nothing to deter their attacks.
also don't strawman. I clearly said white nationalists not all white people.. And I clearly said white nayionalists that posted extemist content online.
so after they kill people? or is them posting 1488 with nazi symbols a bunch online proof?
The latter.
also don’t strawman. I clearly said white nationalists not all white people… And I clearly said white nayionalists that posted extemist content online.
But what's happening in China is not equivalent to that. Folks are being locked up for "suspicion" of being radicalized. There's no justification for that kind of discrimination.
But I still think y'all are looking at this all wrong. Xinjiang being a hotbed of terrorist activity is based in the material world, and improving the material conditions of the people there is what will have the biggest positive effect in the region. I really wish we could come up with a system that could help improve their material conditions. Have you ever heard of such a thing?
if we give nazis healthcare theyre still gonna be nazis, though. the ideology runs deep.
But back to your other point. If someone posts "1488" online and is detained for it, is that really any different on the outside than detaining people who are suspected to be terrorists? Isnt that literally the exact same thing? How is one okay but the other isn't?
Please help me understand where the line is here.
To be clear, I don't want to imprison anyone. Prisons shouldn't exist.
I'm not going to get into the weeds about when the right moment is to detain potential terrorists. For starters, I'm wholly unqualified to answer that question; but more to the point, it's a distraction. Instead, I'd love to focus on this part of my comment:
But I still think y’all are looking at this all wrong. Xinjiang being a hotbed of terrorist activity is based in the material world, and improving the material conditions of the people there is what will have the biggest positive effect in the region. I really wish we could come up with a system that could help improve their material conditions. Have you ever heard of such a thing?
So, do you have any ideas?
So you DO think giving nazis healthcare and money will make them suddenly stop wanting to kill all black people and jews. Interesting take.
The fact that you think communism (or whatever leftist ideology you prefer) is just "free healthcare and free money" is really sad.
I don't think communism (or whatever leftist ideology you prefer) will completely erase hate, that would be almost as ridiculous as thinking communism = free healthcare. But I certainly think a lot of the hate we see is rooted in the material conditions of the people living in the places where this hate is so common. Do I think we should go easy on Nazis? No, not at all. Do I think we can prevent some folks from becoming Nazis in the first place? You bet your ass I do!
bro communism isn't gonna fix racism or extremism just inherently. I don't know what white person told you that, but they were wrong.
I was joking about communism being "free healthcare and money" because you have not named any actual concrete method this whole time. "just do communism bro" is not a concrete solution, nor is it going to stop racists from wanting to kill my family on sight for looking different than them.
bro communism isn’t gonna fix racism or extremism just inherently. I don’t know what white person told you that, but they were wrong.
I'm not gonna respond to your strawman again.
you have not named any actual concrete method this whole time.
The methods aren't what we're discussing here, though. If we could come up with a good system for improving the material conditions of the people of Xinjiang, I think that would do a whole lot more to combat extremism in the area than "re-education". If we agreed that improving material conditions reduces extremism, then we could have a really fruitful debate about methods. But you don't seem to agree with that concept.
Actually i didn't say any of those things :) Please read my messages again if you're confused!
improving material conditions reduces extremism
Yes, in the long term.
But what about right now? I just had a terror attack in my city this year. I can't wait for material conditions to get better, and they won't improve immediately even if we literally get communism overnight. That's why i'm concerned RIGHT NOW and want a concrete answer. I don't have the privilege to wait for the racist whites in my area to magically be fixed by their material conditions improving.
Speaking of material conditions, it's super weird how there's a ton of white rich, educated nazis who have great material conditions that still hate my family tho. Almost like.... material conditions don't tell the whole story and there's more to it than simply class concerns?
Yes, thanks. I didn't want this question to seem dumb, but as a dumb person it's inevitable.
Essentially what I'm trying to say is that America's method of dealing with what they would characterize as radical islamic terror groups, such as al qaeda and Isis, is war and indefinite detention. War in Iraq, war in Syria, establishing black detention sites such as Guantanamo Bay and detaining indefinitely (with no trials) Muslim people who they suspect are involved.
Additionally, there are reports from American government agencies, detailing the strategy and opportunity to amplify the discontent of the Uighur populations along the Chinese border, and providing encouragement to carry out violent terror attacks in Xinjiang. This has been occurring for a while there, which is the basis of why the Chinese education program started.
As a contrast with what I see is happening in Xinjiang, which is to counter the terror attacks, by detaining and providing education in how to assimilate or understand Chinese language and culture, in order to reduce violence.
It is still problematic. Detention by ethnicity, without charges, but it appears that detention is not indefinite, and there aren't all out wars killing millions.
It is a gray area, for sure, and I don't claim to understand the root causes of the violence in the region. Maybe this is something that I can get a good source on and learn. Maybe my whole view is wrong and bad.
I'm here to learn.
I'm not the person you're replying to. I can completely empathise with you about how grating it is that people keep recycling the same old talking points about organ harvesting, Nazi comparisons etc. I'm an Australian-born Chinese and here in Australia, the atmosphere this propaganda creates, we pretty much have straight up McCarthyism (just today, an Australian-born Chinese academic was told to denounce the CPC during a Senate inquiry). In my experience, people who are liberal types are just straight up not worth the type to engage with in this topic. They don't understand the sort of intellectual vanguardism of US think tanks etc and have way too much trust in US institutions. The best you can do is to probably sow doubt into the obviously messed up characters like Zenz.
In terms of sources, I have found good articles written in the Made in China journal. In Australia, there is a historian of Xinjiang, China, and the Soviet Union, by the name of David Brophy whose opinions I really respect. He has emphasised repeatedly the importance of recognising the human rights violations in Xinjiang without lending support to cold warriors like Zenz or the ASPI and the US sanctions regime.
indiscriminately locking up Muslims as an “anti terror effort” isn’t right at all, for the same reason why Japanese internment was fucked up too
Putting it in the same category as our WWII Japanese internment camps is a great idea.
The Chinese have many observers from Muslim-majority countries in Xinjiang who are all signing off that what's going on there as above-board. It's not Muslim countries that are talking about genocide or concentrations camps, that's exclusive to the west. Pretty much all Muslim-majority counties are on China's side on this one. Maybe this argument is a helpful one to make?
There are significant political and strategic reasons for them to back China, a lot of it has to do with geography. It's a near mirror image of why the west has their significant reasons to come at China like they do. You can make the argument, but it's easily countered by the fact that the countries that back China are obviously biased by their material interests. This is not even to say that they are lying, just that the argument is quickly cancelled out imo.
Right I agree with that, I don't agree with "well the Muslim countries are fine with it so it's fine, actually". It is a sign that there are probably not death camps, and there probably isn't widespread abuse of detainees (I guarantee that it happens though), and it definitely doesn't mean everything is above board and good to go.
And, as always, liberals are always happy to play imperialist if they can justify it with their conscience. I'm sure most of them genuinely don't understand geopolitics well enough to know what they are doing, and if I get into a discussion with them about it I'm going to firmly introduce a better framing of the issue, which probably means playing China-advocate for the most part.
I left a longer comment to someone else here, but again, as a Muslim: I think you can admit to there being gray area. Yes, there is religious persecution in XJ. Is it on the levels of concentration camps? Not at all. I think completely writing off that there is oppression kinda is silly to do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7Rb01CTaPM Honestly show them this and then ask them their thoughts. It is very very similar to what is going on in XJ. if they find no problem with it, say that it is similar when you get down to the facts. If they do find issues, ask them what's wrong specifically. Maybe then you'll be able to see what they find wrong about it and get to the point there. Even if someone is convinced they're not full on concentration camps, they still probably won't take lightly to the idea of re-education camps anyways, especially without knowing the horribly complex ETIM/Central Asia/China history revolving this area. And at some point, you really can't blame them for that if they have no historical context for all this (besides being taught their whole life that China Always Bad).
what brought you to a stage in life where you are defending religious persecution against people of your own faith? do you realize that if you lived there and did literally nothing wrong except be a muslim, you would have been sent to the same camps? do you think you would deserve that?
If I were in the middle of being radicalized by Salafism, i’d probably prefer to be re-educated than to go down that route. It is a lose-lose situation either way. China could handle the reeducation much better, certainly, while the West creates insane lies about what’s going on there, and all while being able to recognize that ETIM and radical Islam aren’t to be 100% defended either.
What is your alternative? To let entire population become radicalized? To let it fester and fester, and eventually America would probably want to intervene and probably bomb the area anyways (as they already have)? This is a horribly complex situation. I recognize it as so.
The underlying premise here is broken, as the PRC doesnt care about whether you’ve been “radicalized” or not. Simply being related to Muslims or having a beard is enough to get disappeared.
Regardless. You’re worried about salafists but the KSA is run by wahabbists and they have no problem with what China is doing, what does that tell you?
The solution to terrorism isn’t to lock up every person you see that might be Muslim. It’s to lock up the people engaging in terrorism and leave innocent people alone.
You’re an op. No doubt about it now. Don’t bother replying, you’ve said enough.
