I could go on and on about Adrian Zenz, his terrible methodologies; about terrorist groups trained by Isis and utilized by American for creating unrest in Xinjiang; stats about real population numbers in Xinjiang; about differences between American and Chinese anti-terror efforts regarding radical islamic terror groups; about infrastructure building in the area, investment by China; about the number of mosques per capita; about the preservation of regional identity that Xi is working towards; etc. Etc.
But, regardless, just saying that I don't believe that there is religious persecution in Xinjiang means, in their eyes, that I don't care about our Muslim brothers and sisters.
It's similar to talking about Hong Kong.
Libs use these places as tools to spread liberalism, so caring about the actual policies, people, and reality is a disadvantage to conversation.
How can I approach these subjects?
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Hey, Muslim here too. From what I know of Uyghurs (and I have been looking into this for a long time even before it was big news), it's not similar to internment camps (imo). It is more like re-education schools, deradicalizing people who have been radicalized by ETIM. If you don't know much about ETIM/Panturkic Imperialism, definitely read up on it. It's been affecting and will affect worldwide Muslim issues for a while now and to come. Uyghur Muslims were being radicalized and there were a lot of attacks in China. The schools focus in deradicalization, teaching Uyghurs Mandarin and skills, etc. Things to help them better "assimilate" if you will. There are some issues with that of course. But Indonesia was doing the exact same thing, and Western news was praising it highly while now lying and saying these schools in China are concentration camps. America has bombed Uyghurs before. America has specifically pointed out wanting to create issues in Xinjiang specifically as it is full of oil. It is incredibly complex. It is even more complex if one doesn't read Uyghur, Turkish, or Chinese -- which a lot of old sources talking about all of this tend to be in.
Again, there is issues to discuss when singling out ethnic groups for reeducation. However, as a Muslim again, Wahhabism is something I never want to support. As a Greek Gypsy, Panturkish Imperialism is also something I never want to support. Is deradicalizing programs probably the best option? I'm not sure. But it is nothing like they say it is in Western news.
I highly recommen ** this ** article. It details descrimination Uyghurs face, as well as discussing the radicalization targeting them. This situation is horribly complex, in a way most Westerners/Americans are not used to handling historical context in. It's not even a thing Muslims can really claim to understand on the basis of also being Muslim; the history of Turkey/Central Asia/China are completely necessary to understand here. But I think it's really important to learn, even just Panturkic extremism in general.
Yes, thank you for this. I certainly don't want my question to come across as asinine nor as simplistic as good/bad. I don't support the detention of anyone on a cultural basis, but I know that the situation in china is being drastically misrepresented in western media as part of an anti-china propaganda campaign.
It is a complex topic, and that is what I want to clarify with people i know - that it isn't China bad, it is a particular strategy that China has developed to deal with an issue that has the potential to destabilize the west of their country.
It's something no one is ever going to agree on 100% because of it's intricacies. It's become one of those things I just don't even try to bring up to liberal friends. I find HK protests easier to tackle than this. It's too many facets really.
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Sorry if it seemed like I was saying you specifically can't have an opinion because of the history thing, I didn't mean that. I was moreso talking about how Western Muslims oversimplify this specific situation, but I didn't mean you specifically.
That first point is true. USA and their alphabet agencies funnel money and propaganda into Xinjiang to foment secessionist movements and political violence. They want people poor and radicalized.
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what would you prefer a country do when stuff like this happens?
https://time.com/11687/deadly-terror-attack-in-southwestern-china-blamed-on-separatist-muslim-uighurs/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/24/china-uighurs-blamed-as-18-die-in-xinjiang-attack-says-report
I live in a place where a dangerous radical ideology (white nationalism) has prompted a terror attack that killed people. there was nothing done to try to stop further attacks and uhh white nationalism is still out here killing people. I dont believe in locking people until its the last resort. but I also don't want actual terrorists to go on spreading terror either.
I'm not trying to tell you ehat to think here though. I grnuinly want to know what you think a government should do when faced with a problem like this. because we sure as fuck need something to get the white nationalist terrorists to stop here.
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Dodging the question, i see. well let me know if you do develop any strategic thoughts on it.
Personally speaking, as someone who lives in a city that white nationalists constantly terrorize and have killed people in, I'd feel a whole lot safer if yes. the government WAS monitoring these extremists groups and detaining them if they posted too edgy shit online. we're constantly finding proof of a nazi or incel terrorists posting on 4chan and shit after they kill someone so its not like it would be terribly hard to moniter that. Imagine if the FBI like actually did that instead of inciting minorities to commit crimes so they can arrest them.
Certainly "just keep letting terrorists kill people so i keep my ideology pure" is NOT the safe or civil solution though.
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Some folks seem to really want an excuse to become the oppressors.
Muslims in America aren't committing terrorist attacks.
Why are you getting defensive? I'm just saying that locking people up is not ideologically pure. its not a neat or nice solution. But it is superior to just letting terrorists kill people.
Since you live in America, like me, you should be aware that white nationalist terror attacks are common. Let's just talk about those. what is your non-prison solution for fixing that problem? Nazis still gonna nazi even after we take over, after all. They're going to continue to attack and kill our comrades. If you had the power of the state behind you, what would you do to protect your people?
My solutions is to lock up the Nazis, after they've proven themselves to be Nazis.
My solutions is NOT to lock up all white folks in the country for "re-education".
so after they kill people? or is them posting 1488 with nazi symbols a bunch online proof?
because we're currently doing the "only lock up nazis that kill people" thing and it has done nothing to deter their attacks.
also don't strawman. I clearly said white nationalists not all white people.. And I clearly said white nayionalists that posted extemist content online.
The latter.
But what's happening in China is not equivalent to that. Folks are being locked up for "suspicion" of being radicalized. There's no justification for that kind of discrimination.
But I still think y'all are looking at this all wrong. Xinjiang being a hotbed of terrorist activity is based in the material world, and improving the material conditions of the people there is what will have the biggest positive effect in the region. I really wish we could come up with a system that could help improve their material conditions. Have you ever heard of such a thing?
if we give nazis healthcare theyre still gonna be nazis, though. the ideology runs deep.
But back to your other point. If someone posts "1488" online and is detained for it, is that really any different on the outside than detaining people who are suspected to be terrorists? Isnt that literally the exact same thing? How is one okay but the other isn't?
Please help me understand where the line is here.
To be clear, I don't want to imprison anyone. Prisons shouldn't exist.
I'm not going to get into the weeds about when the right moment is to detain potential terrorists. For starters, I'm wholly unqualified to answer that question; but more to the point, it's a distraction. Instead, I'd love to focus on this part of my comment:
So, do you have any ideas?
So you DO think giving nazis healthcare and money will make them suddenly stop wanting to kill all black people and jews. Interesting take.
The fact that you think communism (or whatever leftist ideology you prefer) is just "free healthcare and free money" is really sad.
I don't think communism (or whatever leftist ideology you prefer) will completely erase hate, that would be almost as ridiculous as thinking communism = free healthcare. But I certainly think a lot of the hate we see is rooted in the material conditions of the people living in the places where this hate is so common. Do I think we should go easy on Nazis? No, not at all. Do I think we can prevent some folks from becoming Nazis in the first place? You bet your ass I do!
bro communism isn't gonna fix racism or extremism just inherently. I don't know what white person told you that, but they were wrong.
I was joking about communism being "free healthcare and money" because you have not named any actual concrete method this whole time. "just do communism bro" is not a concrete solution, nor is it going to stop racists from wanting to kill my family on sight for looking different than them.
I'm not gonna respond to your strawman again.
The methods aren't what we're discussing here, though. If we could come up with a good system for improving the material conditions of the people of Xinjiang, I think that would do a whole lot more to combat extremism in the area than "re-education". If we agreed that improving material conditions reduces extremism, then we could have a really fruitful debate about methods. But you don't seem to agree with that concept.
Actually i didn't say any of those things :) Please read my messages again if you're confused!
Yes, in the long term.
But what about right now? I just had a terror attack in my city this year. I can't wait for material conditions to get better, and they won't improve immediately even if we literally get communism overnight. That's why i'm concerned RIGHT NOW and want a concrete answer. I don't have the privilege to wait for the racist whites in my area to magically be fixed by their material conditions improving.
Speaking of material conditions, it's super weird how there's a ton of white rich, educated nazis who have great material conditions that still hate my family tho. Almost like.... material conditions don't tell the whole story and there's more to it than simply class concerns?
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Define foment.
Yes, thanks. I didn't want this question to seem dumb, but as a dumb person it's inevitable.
Essentially what I'm trying to say is that America's method of dealing with what they would characterize as radical islamic terror groups, such as al qaeda and Isis, is war and indefinite detention. War in Iraq, war in Syria, establishing black detention sites such as Guantanamo Bay and detaining indefinitely (with no trials) Muslim people who they suspect are involved.
Additionally, there are reports from American government agencies, detailing the strategy and opportunity to amplify the discontent of the Uighur populations along the Chinese border, and providing encouragement to carry out violent terror attacks in Xinjiang. This has been occurring for a while there, which is the basis of why the Chinese education program started.
As a contrast with what I see is happening in Xinjiang, which is to counter the terror attacks, by detaining and providing education in how to assimilate or understand Chinese language and culture, in order to reduce violence.
It is still problematic. Detention by ethnicity, without charges, but it appears that detention is not indefinite, and there aren't all out wars killing millions.
It is a gray area, for sure, and I don't claim to understand the root causes of the violence in the region. Maybe this is something that I can get a good source on and learn. Maybe my whole view is wrong and bad.
I'm here to learn.
I'm not the person you're replying to. I can completely empathise with you about how grating it is that people keep recycling the same old talking points about organ harvesting, Nazi comparisons etc. I'm an Australian-born Chinese and here in Australia, the atmosphere this propaganda creates, we pretty much have straight up McCarthyism (just today, an Australian-born Chinese academic was told to denounce the CPC during a Senate inquiry). In my experience, people who are liberal types are just straight up not worth the type to engage with in this topic. They don't understand the sort of intellectual vanguardism of US think tanks etc and have way too much trust in US institutions. The best you can do is to probably sow doubt into the obviously messed up characters like Zenz.
In terms of sources, I have found good articles written in the Made in China journal. In Australia, there is a historian of Xinjiang, China, and the Soviet Union, by the name of David Brophy whose opinions I really respect. He has emphasised repeatedly the importance of recognising the human rights violations in Xinjiang without lending support to cold warriors like Zenz or the ASPI and the US sanctions regime.
Thanks, I'll check out his writings.
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Putting it in the same category as our WWII Japanese internment camps is a great idea.