Imagine instead of complete surrender the confederacy retreated and held Texas, and China was selling them advanced weaponry. That’s what this is
This is like if the Confederacy retreated to Catalina Island, massacred everyone there, and continued calling itself the rightful government of the entire continent afterward.
This is not like that. The ROC government did not "massacre everyone there." It did call itself the rightful government of the entire China for several decades, but it has since then moved on.
It's constitution has not even been amended to not include Mongolia, let alone mainland China.
And the KMT did do a number on the indigenous Formosan population.
Man, these days you know a hexbear without even looking at the user.
I mean this is complete baloney! You are also using the comparison to establish some kind of “evil slavers vs democracy” narrative that wasn’t in place at all in China during the warlord era. They were all equally horrid.
This is, at best, akin to a war between all states in the US after the Boston Tea Party and a communist state, let’s just pick Arizona, slowly winning the wars and forcing the remaining faction onto Hawaii. Then the socialist party forced anyone who could read, more or less, to work themselves to death in a field in the name of communism. Glory to the people!!!
jesus christ read at least one book about the history of the conflict you're describing before you confidently spout nonsense.
I agree my characterisation is far off the mark. But the poster I responded to wasn’t even in the same galaxy, so I still considered it an improvement.
Also, I’m not Jesus Christ 🤪
So you acknowledge the fact that you don't know shit about the topic you're spouting off on but you still just assume you know better??
They did not say that they don't know shit about the topic, not even close. They simply said their characterization is far off the marks. That means that their understanding of the conflict is far from perfect, but they absolutely do know shit about it.
They didn't say they were wrong
They just said they were far off the mark
That means their understanding is far from perfect
They absolutely do know their shit
I’m not Jesus Christ
You really need to get a new joke, boomer
This is, at best, akin to a war between all states in the US after the Boston Tea Party and a communist state, let’s just pick Arizona, slowly winning the wars and forcing the remaining faction onto Hawaii. Then the socialist party forced anyone who could read, more or less, to work themselves to death in a field in the name of communism. Glory to the people!!!
Uhhhh, The US already killed most of the natives by working them to death in a field in the name of profits. So... God Bless America?
Fuck you, honestly, you don't know what you're talking about. The Native Hawaiians I've met are extremely radical. It took me not time at all of just asking around to find an honest to god, Stalin loving, Marxist Leninist.
China reduced illiteracy rates into oblivion because of the communist party. The CPC was the largest force fighting the Japanese imperialists. They liberated Korea after the US empire colonized half of it. The Communist Party of China has given China a rebirth not seen since the glory of the dynasties. It ended famine in china, gave housing to most if not all chinese, eliminated the harshes poverty, and so much more.
Work to death in a field eh? Sounds more like the US, you know, when they killed and enslaved billions of people to work to death for their cotton farms?
China reduced literacy rates into oblivion because of the communist party.
Liberals will tell you this is evil because it allowed the peasants to read Marx.
China reduced literacy rates into oblivion because of the communist party.
I think you mean "illiteracy rates" there, comrade.
Go eat something right away, even if it's just a snack! I once got a nasty concussion after skipping lunch at work and passing out. Trust me, the hospital bill isn't worth it.
Although I can't for the next hour since its 1 and I get off at... 2ish, I'm used to being light headed so I can make it until then. I don't have much money to buy the expensive ass lunches here, but today is worse than usual, so I'll make an exception.
But wait you're not supposed to skip lunch? I thought you only really had to eat dinner, at least thats what I've been doing.
Depends on the individual, apparently. According to to the doctors I've spoken to, there's no bigger issue. I basically can't go more than 3 hours without eating something or I start to feel faint, which is definitely on the low end though.
I agree. People should take how the Chinese government and the US government treat their people into consideration.
So are we gonna talk about how USA has the highest incarceration rate in the world? Are we going to talk about income equality in USA vs China? Are we going to talk about the Concentration camps for refugee children on the USA border? (If you are going to bring up Xinjiang I'm going to need some photographic evidence beyond vibes and zenz doing bad statistical analysis)
What does incarceration rate have to do with how good the country is? Do you really believe that the income is more equal in China? If you are going to talk about the "concentration camps" on the USA border I'm going to need photo evidence too. Here is a photo of the camp in Xinjiang:
::: spoiler
Show:::
No, this photo is not fake.
What does incarceration rate have to do with how good the country is?
not "how good it is" "How it treats its people" America locks up its people way more (531/100k) than other China (119/100k). Is imprisoning people treating them well?
Kids in cages. There's some photo's there and I think you'll probably respect WaPo as a source.
removed externally hosted image
You can try again but I'm gonna guess that it is just a picture of a building or some prisoners with no context on how many people are there or why they are there.
I apologize for saying "how good it is." I was in a rush and couldn't think of a better phrase.
I just read through the article from the Washington Post you linked. That really is bad and I believe that the Trump government should not have treated the (although illegal) immigrants. The grim appearance of that facility really isn't something that the immigrants should have faced when they set foot on the US. However, compare that to the situation in Xinjiang. Here is an opinion post from the Washington Post. What China is doing to its Uyghurs is genocide. Not that it justifies anything that the US have done to its immigrants, but in comparison what the US is doing seem pretty mild.
Here is an opinion post from the Washington Post.
that's not news that is an opinion piece that references Zenz who is a liar and Nazi sympathiser.
The UN has done a fact finding Mission and they said there is no evidence of a Uyghur Genocide. It didn't happen.
Yes there are Vocational schools in Xinjiang but that is to teach people trades to lift themselves out of poverty. The only "culture" being erased is religious extremist terrorism that snuck in through Afghanistan when USA pushed the Taliban out of Afghanistan. Yes there was a rapid increase in birth control measures in Xinjiang but that is what happens when women are given education, economic self determination, and access to proper medical care. They get a IUD so they can focus on living their lives the way they want to instead of being slaves to men who use them as domestic servants and baby incubators.
Zenz based his entire "genocide" theory off statistics and bad math because he is involved in the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation. It is an organization built to spread hate against communism. They hate Communism because the USSR killed 7/10 nazis that died in WW2. The large majority of "Victims of Communism" were Nazis and the people memorializing them are nazis too.
No offence but your lack of media literacy is showing..
You understand that using WaPo as a source for American wrong doings is not the same as using WaPo as a source for wrong doings it's geopolitical rival. You'd need a Chinese outlet admitting to their faults for it to be equivalent..
Nonetheless I clicked on your link:
The disclosure comes in an investigative report from the Associated Press and a new research report by scholar Adrian Zenz for the Jamestown Foundation.
Literally the second paragraph...
Here is a photo of the camp in Xinjiang:
Here's a photo of a camp in the USA.
Show
I actually don't know if this image is fake or not, could be from a film for all I know. It's a DDG search result. But then you didn't actually research the origin of your photo either.
Edit: This comment does not address the ICE concentration camps and is only replying to the quoted text. To be clear.
My photo was taken from the Wikipedia article for the Xinjiang internment camps. Taken in April 2017, the image is titled Detainee in a Xinjiang Re-education Camp located in Lop County listening to "de-radicalization" talks. The photo you linked to was taken in the Arizona State Prison Complex: https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/2020/05/20/early-release-arizona-prisons-matter-public-health-not-politics/5218072002/.
I actually already knew where you found that photo. But it's simply mislabelled on Wikipedia. This is where the image is from. https://web.archive.org/web/20180820154817/https://baijiahao.baidu.com/s?id=1564669932542581&wfr=spider&for=pc
This is the earliest upload of that image known to me. It's from a regular prison in Xinjiang where convicted criminals who went through a legal trial are incarcerated. It's not related to the de-radicalisation program that the western media calls cultural genocide and suspect is happening in concentration camps.
Edit: New link.
The life expectancy of China in 2021 was 77.13 - not that much higher than the US.
Yes but the USA has a PPP GDP PC of 76400 G–K$ and China has 21500 G–K$. How can you in good faith compare those?
(Life expectancy for Mexico, marginally richer per capita than China is 70. Life expectancy for the Philippines (poorer pc than China) is 69.)
The fact that China is in the same ballpark should be evidence enough that their policies are more people-orientated. The fact that they're ahead despite the huge disadvantage should be a huge point of shame for the USA, not something to be dismissed with saying the gap is small.
Well, not quite. It's more akin to if the union was pushed back and was limited to new-england.
The PRC is the confederate equivalent, as they weren't the original legal government unlike Taiwan, which legally is the heir of the ROC.
Also one of these states is an authoritarian piece of shit, and it's definitely not Taiwan.
The PRC is the confederate equivalent, as they weren't the original legal government unlike Taiwan, which legally is the heir of the ROC.
The left wing of the KMT split from Chiang's KMT in 1948 to form the Revolutionary Committee of the KMT. It was headed by a senior KMT General and Song Ching Ling the widow of Sun Yat Sen. Madam Song would later serve as a Vice President of the People's Republic of China and the Revolutionary Committee of the KMT holds seats in the National People's Congress to this day.
If you even look at the history of the KMT, you'd see that it's incredibly prone to factionalism, including a period during the First United Front where the CPC agreed to join the KMT as a wing to fight the Warlords but left after the KMT stabbed it in the back during the Shanghai Purges.
Legally, the PRC is recognized by the UN as the sole representative of China under General Assembly Resolution 2758 and the overwhelming majority of the world's nation's recognize that there is only one China and that China is the PRC.
Cope and seethe.
The PRC is the confederate equivalent, as they weren’t the original legal government unlike Taiwan, which legally is the heir of the ROC.
Going by paper legality argument, ROC is also illegal because it wrested power from Qing. Which conquered China from Ming, which toppled Yuan, and going fast forward to Han, Qing, Zhao and Shang, neither of them also risen peacefully.
Ahhh, Chinese history. Breaking every 400-500 years into total chaos, and someone new fixes it so the cycle repeated.
Does it looks like that to you? I would say they have unparallelled cultural and civilisational continuity rarily seen in any other place. And feudal empires falling is not the gotcha you think it is, especially when you look at the absolute clusterfuck in Europe (or many other places too).
Also nice deflection.
Every great empire in human civilization has fallen. China is the only one to have fallen and then gotten back up multiple times.
Like yeah China will probably fall again in the future, but the great grandchildren of everyone on this site will be long dead by then. Contrast that with America, which has had hegemony only since 1945 and already looks like it's in terminal decline.
It will fall when they abolish the state as global communism has been achieved. Unfortunately this is still well after we and our grandkids die
Contrast that with America, which has had hegemony only since 1945 and already looks like it's in terminal decline.
They've lasted less than the British! The BRITISH!
You made your point dating to the shang, and I dont disagree. Even more, you're right, feudal empires falling isn't a gotcha.
So what about a modern state being violently overthrown? Or is this different because one violent, illegiment warlord championed "the people", and proceeded to starve 200* million of them after taking power?
Which one of these two states still maintains democratic or republican ideals for the people, a reminder that real Legitimacy lay with the people.
Sorry. Just a measley 50 million people mb. Still the worst famine in history. And 100% preventable.
Modern state is when you fund yourself off of opium profits, you appoint your gangster relatives to be in charge of state finances, your officials occasionally run off to form collaborationist governments with Imperial Japan, and you're so corrupt and incompetent that your own allies are disgusted by you and you lose a war against your own people despite the military and financial backing of the most powerful country in the world.
Democratic and republican ideals is when you retreat to an island because you got your ass handed to you and then perpetrate the White Terror against your people for 40 years.
You made your point dating to the shang, and I dont disagree.
Well, as i read about the history of China, previous entity of Xia apparently didn't conquered anyone and even if they did, we don't know, written history of China start from the late Shang period.
About the rest Tankiedesantski answered you about the "republican ideas" of ROC, i can only add that even if you deflect yet again to "real Legitimacy lay with the people" there is nothing more really legitimate by the people than popular revolution which led to the state being supported by 90% of population.
What is it with you right wingers and trivalizing the holocaust?
Kindly show me where the fuck I mentioned the holocaust? Also don't appreciate you straw maning me for not simping over china.
You idiots love pretending reality is some history memes you saw on the internet, don't you?
Mmmhm, I just adore conversing with nothing but the finest internet historians, I assure you.
I'm keenly aware of the actual history, but don't give enough of a fuck to do it justice.
I'm keenly aware of the actual history
somehow I doubt that
“I know the history I just don’t care enough to remember it”
???
one of these states is an authoritarian piece of shit, and it's definitely not Taiwan.
Tell that to the indigenous people of Taiwan. I bet they'd love to hear about how their genocide was "non-authoritarian".
40-ish years of military dictatorship, but they made a 228 park so it's okay
Nobody in SEA likes Taiwan. It doesn't help that Taiwan has two naval bases in the South China Sea and always sides with the PRC against the rest of SEA over the SCS, mostly using the justification of "acktually the SCS is part of Chinese naval waters and we're officially called the Republic of China, so this is Taiwanese naval waters btw since we're officially called the Republic of China."
Is that a bad thing? In your hypothetical situation, Chinese people should be happy about their government selling weaponry to Texas, and the Americans should not support their sale of weaponry. To compare this to the real world scenario, Chinese people should feel angry about this and Americans should feel good. I don't really get the point you're trying to convey with your analogy.
I can’t WAIT for Taiwan to turn into the next Ukraine 😍! The final victory of liberal democracy over the global 99% is imminent!
lemmitors: "if you're not anti-MIC at 15 you have no heart, but if you're not pro-MIC at 25 you have no brain"
Interesting paraphrase of the famous Churchill nonsense, which should give some of so called "leftists" here a pause, but alas, they only press the down arrow.
Lockheed left
Democracies all over the world are ready to fight to the last Taiwanese child soldier!
Well even though I do not ever want to see war between Taiwan and China, I believe that if there ever were one, the war would not be a proxy war but a war where Taiwanese are fighting for their own.
Taiwan only exists because it served, and continues to serve, US interests as a staging point for military operations against China. A war over Taiwan would absolutely see the US using Taiwan as a proxy, much as they are currently using Ukraine against Russia.
I mean, China can just mind their own business, leave them alone, and then there doesn't have to be a war. How nice that would be.
Alright folks, time to get into the Taiwan flag business 📈 . I have a feeling the market is about to grow, anyone invested in Ukraine flags still is a fool! 📉
Just make sure you sell before the US opens its TSMC plant and drops Taiwan like a hot rock.
I still say that Taiwan has two uses that struggle to coexist, manufacturing and military. Once the manufacturing one becomes defunct, what is left is its military use.
Wasnt there a us senator that tried to start a war in china presicley because she had a lot of intel stock?
US also nearly started a war with Iran over a fucking pistachios (not solely, but it was a factor)
That TSMC plant is running into trouble on every front, including the inability to find local workers qualified and willing to work there.
Also the expat Taiwanese engineers are being subjected go racist harassment because of course they are lmao.
My advice is to put in an order for about 100,000 flame resistant Taiwanese flags, and about 10 million Taiwanese flags that burn real good.
“Think of how many jobs building an aircraft carrier provides.” -An actual dog brained take, said to me IRL
I hate to quote fucking Eisenhower but even broken clocks etc etc...
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some fifty miles of concrete pavement. We pay for a single fighter with a half-million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people. . . . This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron.
Even he was warning us about the MIC, and now people say "what about those employed making bombers? Surely that's the only job they're capable of! What else would they do?"
mfw they close down the dog-kicking factory, destroying thousands of honest jobs
:deeper-sadness:
I've heard similar takes from those drooling boomers also. Think about all the jobs making missiles for war create! Not as many as you'd think old boomer guy.
the MiC is no joke the only properly funded welfare program in the country. it's just welfare for consultants and PMC instead of like you know, people who need the money.
It's the same as the housing market or 401ks. Tie someone's future to the institutions of capitalism and they'll fall in line rapidly. Swap out capitalism for naked imperialism and you have the MIC jobs program.
So... a couple of tomahawk missiles and a container of uniforms. Taiwan secured.
I got into an argument with a guy on Reddit because he kept insisting that Taiwan was a sovereign nation and I kept telling him that Taiwan does not view Taiwan as a sovereign nation. At one point he asked me if we sold weapons to China and when I said definitionally yes he lost his shit.
A June 2013 poll conducted by DPP showed an overwhelming 77.6% consider themselves as Taiwanese.[140] On the independence-unification issue, the survey found that 25.9 percent said they support unification, 59 percent support independence, and 10.3 percent prefer the "status quo." When asked whether Taiwan and China are parts of one country, the party said the survey found 78.4 percent disagree, while 15 percent agreed. As for whether Taiwan and China are two districts in one country, 70.6 percent disagree, while 22.8 percent agree
Taiwan #1
The DPP (pro-Independence party) polling seems to differ a bit from National Chengchi University's yearly poll where "maintain status quo indefinitely/decide later" were the two most popular selections.
maintain status quo indefinitely/decide later
me deciding what I'm going to do today
I agree the polling is a bit different, I don't think it contradicts the DPP study though. Setting aside the question of national identity (not addressed in the NCU study) vs national policy goals, NCU went 32/28/21 for status quo maintain/decide later/move toward independence. 1.6 wanted status quo + move toward unification. 21 > 1.6. Thanks for providing further evidence!
21 > 1.6
If you're only looking at the "immediate action" options it's 4.5% independence vs 1.6% unification
Grouping the camps together, the graph shows 25% vs 8% currently while not too long ago in 2018 it was 20% vs 16%. It's a contentious issue, and opinions wax and wane depending on the diplomatic situation with the only consistency being that the majority of people favor maintaining the status quo. However, I think as more of the older generations die off, much like in South Korea, identification with a cross-border national project will likely diminish.
How can they possibly be Taiwanese if they don't speak any of the Formosan languages?
If your views can only be propagated through violence, don't you think they should be reconsidered?
Ooh that period was a deliberate choice, and it is not paying off
what you gonna do, have another recession to own the commies?
I agree with your sentiment, but we should refrain from using these emotionally charged words. We must remain polite
so that people reading this thread will get a bad impression of Hexbear.
I'm pretty sure they would rather use Taiwan as their name in Olympics if China allowed them to.
Haha you got me there! Guess that settles it.
Question - do you know if they include Taiwan's gold medal count with mainland China's?
Chinese Taipei is not a place name. It is the name people in Taiwan use to participate in sports. Like it or not, the island is called Taiwan, whether they are their own nation or just a province of China.
I can accept you claiming that Taipei is a city in China, but the Wikipedia article you link to does not seem to agree.
70% of US adults believe in angels, but that doesn't make it true. No countries with any actual amount of power on the global stage recognize the ROC (see the US' One China Policy), which means that regardless of whatever views people claim to have when surveyed, Taiwan is de facto part of the PRC.
Taiwan is completely economically dependent on the Mainland and is recognized by an ever shrinking pool of nations?
How do you go from there - economic dependence and decreasing recognition - to not being self sovereign? They run a government and have elections. As another hexbear pointed out
true enough a lot of that works out to semantics, such as their having “Economic, Trade, and Cultural Offices” instead of formal embassies despite them doing largely the same thing
This is without contending your points about their economic situation and degree to which the mainland coerces the language of the relationship held between Taiwan and other nations.
How do you go from there - economic dependence and decreasing recognition - to not being self sovereign? They run a government and have elections. As another hexbear pointed out
At a basic level, to be a sovereign country is for the people of that country to have the ability to determine their own collective destiny. Now, sovereignty is not a simple binary but a scale since powerful countries have the potential for greater influence than smaller countries who must fight against the influence of larger countries.
Vietnam has sovereignty. It has an independent military that is battle-tested through winning numerous wars against its neighbors and the US, it has a seat within the UN where it can lobby its interest before a global body of nations, it has international treaties with numerous countries and is free to sign more or back away from treaties if it's in its geopolitical interests, it is part of many international organizations like ASEAN, and it has an extremely savvy ruling party who knows how to play off the blocs against each other for Vietnam's benefit. It's even taking steps to be completely food independent so they won't get fucked over by sanctions and climate change. The only real mark against their sovereignty is the PRC (and ROC) presence in the SCS.
Taiwan, in contrast, has little to no sovereignty. Its military is completely dependent on the US. If it wasn't for the 7th Fleet constantly bailing out Taiwan, Taiwan would've long since been reunited with the Mainland. It has no seat in the UN. A grand total of 12 UN states, many of them Pacific islands that Taiwan constantly bribes for their continued recognition, plus Vatican City recognizes Taiwan. Because Taiwan is not a UN state, it cannot belong to a lot of organizations. Just a few days ago, Taiwan got expelled from the Central American Parliament. The Central American Parliament isn't some hugely important organization and that's part of the point. Taiwan has already been shut out of important organizations like the UN and the WHO and now they're even being shut out of even less important ones. Taiwan has to compete in the Olympics under the humiliating title "Chinese Taipei" and instead of boycotting the Olympics, they choose to compete with that humiliating title, further cementing their inability to move beyond what the PRC and the rest of the world has placed them in. Neither the KMT and nor the DPP are pursuing policies that would bolster Taiwan's little sovereignty, with the KMT thinking if they can kiss the PRC ass enough times, the PRC won't invade Taiwan and with the DPP thinking if they can lick Uncle Sam's boots enough times, the US would save Taiwan and not abandon them like the US did with Afghanistan. Taiwan is also overly dependent on trade with the PRC and in general, Taiwan's economy is intertwined with the PRC, meaning if the PRC does shit like temporary ban some Taiwanese imports, the entire economy feels the strain.
This is a country that's economically dependent on one country and militarily dependent on another country. This is not a sovereign country. This is a pawn that's being played by two countries that are belligerent with each other.
I commend you for recognizing to dispute the sovereignty of Taiwan it helps to start with a definition. Unfortunately for you the definition you provided is vague and at ends with more formal definitions. I’ll reference you to the indisputable democratic source of knowledge wikipedia (feel free to edit the page if you it can be improved):
Sovereignty can generally be defined as supreme authority.[1] Sovereignty entails hierarchy within the state, as well as external autonomy for states.[2] In any state, sovereignty is assigned to the person, body or institution that has the ultimate authority over other people in order to establish a law or change existing laws.
The PRC and the USA do not pass and enforce laws in Taiwan. The Taiwan government, elected by the people of Taiwan does. They are self sovereign.
You’ve brought a lot of good points which I ought to go through in detail, but briefly: Vietnam great analysis but different country. Military - is Japan sovereign based on reliance on US? Are there only a handful of actually sovereign states (the superpowes) in your schema? Regarding not provoking PRC no shit they don’t want to get slaughtered. As has been pointed out they have organizations and relationships that are de facto diplomatic if they are not called that because of the gun to their head.
Curious, what’s your stance on Palestine’s sovereignty? I think they can be considered sovereign, I don’t see that spectre of other powers potential influence as taking that away. I don’t see why all you guys need to make the bar seem so high, if you individualize it this much the word changes its meaning. A nation doesn’t need to be uncontested among all other nations to be sovereign. If its not the Taiwan government who is sovereign there? Your position would require there be an “unsovereign” condition, unless you actually believe its the PRC sovereign there. Unless its contested within the borders I don’t see how you could make the argument a nation is unsoverneign.
Taiwan is heavily economically dependent on the Mainland, but not completely.
In practice, Taiwan is not internationally recognized as a country. It doesn't get to participate in many important international bodies like the UN or WHO, for instance. I get your implied point that this doesn't mean much because it really only matters on the diplomatic level, and true enough a lot of that works out to semantics, such as their having "Economic, Trade, and Cultural Offices" instead of formal embassies despite them doing largely the same thing.
I appreciate this last comment in contrast to the former which glibly compares 24 million peoples national identity beliefs to religious views. Belief in a national identity manifests the identity whereas the other are supernatural sky fairies.
and true enough a lot of that works out to semantics
Not sure what the dispute is then. As things stand, a much more powerful nation uses its influence to deny another representation on a world stage. That doesn't make them "not a country." They rule within their borders and those that live there by and large consider themselves Taiwanese. The OP I replied to was denying this, I think you and I made good points that they are self sovereign.
The dispute at this point is over how we define a country, especially because Taiwan clearly falls in a grey area within that definition. I claim that they are fundamentally unable to exercise their sovereignty given they aren't formally recognized as a country by even their greatest allies and benefactors, thus they fail. You claim that they can fulfill the roles of the state, have a national identity, and have various semantic work-arounds for that fundamental illegitimacy, thus they pass. There's also the question of the legitimacy of their founding, with me saying that the ROC was originally an oppressive colonial military dictatorship, but then you would say that it's been long enough and their government has changed enough that it doesn't matter, then we bicker over what constitutes a democracy.
Ultimately the argument would continue indefinitely and I don't think there's much chance either of us would be convinced by the other.
As an aside, the point of the prior comment was that surveys of beliefs can very easily be detached from reality, and so aren't good evidence for claims.
The dispute at this point is over how we define a country, especially because Taiwan clearly falls in a grey area within that definition. I claim that they are fundamentally unable to exercise their sovereignty given they aren’t formally recognized as a country by even their greatest allies and benefactors, thus they fail. You claim that they can fulfill the roles of the state, have a national identity, and have various semantic work-arounds for that fundamental illegitimacy, thus they pass.
I am willing to agree with you (albeit with some rephrasing there) if you were at least consistent. So, do you consider Palestine to be sovereign or not. I consider them sovereign. I am consistent. For you to be consistent in your views would require you to view Palestine to lack sovereignty. Mind you China recognizes Palestine as sovereign. If you say yes they have sovereignty then it demonstrates you're just trying to bring politics into semantics which in truth is what's going on in this whole thread. A political faction is attempting to coop the language to suit their narrative whether it requires logical consistency or not.
It's still a nation-state. It's fully independent and autonomous from China in every sense of the meaning.
Whether other countries recognize your seat at the UN is functionally irrelevant.
Except no country or international institution would agree with your criteria for a nation-state since that definition also gives legitimacy and sovereignty to lovely people like ISIS when they administered a huge chunk of Iraq or any number of autonomous or semi-autonomous breakaway regions that the international community consistently refuses to acknowledge as sovereign states.
Yeah! Whether other countries let you have a seat in the UN or not is not relevant to sovereignty.
Yeah! As long as you don't read the Montevideo Convention or ask any international legal scholars, your conception of international law is totally correct!
Taiwan is not a part of the PRC, de facto or de jure. Say that Taiwan is a part of China all you want, but it never has been a part of the PRC.
The German Democratic Republic was never part of the Federal Republic of Germany either. Until it was.
What a completely irrelevant exercise in pedantry.
The truth, like it or not, is that PRC has never, ever seized control of Taiwan. Hopefully it never does. This is not pedantry.
Please cite the principle of international law which requires the present day iteration of a state's government to have had past administration of a breakaway territory in order to assert a claim of ownership over said territory.
Please also cite any supporting state practice and opinio juris.
You sorta have to win the war to declare independence.
Change the question to: “would you die for Taiwanese independence?” And watch the numbers drop.
You sorta have to win the war to declare independence.
So mainland China is not independent then?
They have the mainland and everyone recognizes them as China.
Sounds independent to me. Forget your pedantic nonsense.
Sounds independent to me. Forget your pedantic nonsense.
As does Taiwan to me, and right back at you comrade.
So the “nation” that doesn’t even consider itself independent sounds independent to you?
And I’m the one being pedantic?
Sorry to say but independence isn’t a vibe.
It’s not a vibe based analysis.
that doesn’t even consider itself independent
How does it not consider itself independent?
So the “nation” that doesn’t even consider itself independent sounds independent to you?
They cannot claim themselves independent or else China would attack. Don't you think it's kind of ludicrous that a country can force another "region" to not be independent by threatening them?
@diablexical@lemm.ee was not actually claiming that China is not independent. They are trying prove that Taiwan is independent through reductio ad absurdium. Basically, they try to derive something absurd (in this case China not being independent) from your claims.
Thus “pedantic nonsense”
You can’t prove independence through logical contradiction. It’s a state of foreign recognition. China clearly won the war enough to be recognized. Taiwan did not.
Independence isn’t a vibe.
Why would anyone want to die for a mere label of "independence"? Most Taiwanese people just want to enjoy the practically independent status quo.
Because it’s not a vibe. They’re not really independent. The island will live forever in Chinas shadow.
For context: the DPP is the pro-indpendence ultranationalist party founded by local landed elites who collaborated with the Japanese empire during wwii. To this day many Taiwanese ultranationalists around the DPP deny Japanese atrocities such as Nanjing and Unit 731. This may not be the most reliable source, three pinocchios!
Anyone who says they support the DPP is openly saying they support fascists.
Not to defend the DPP, but I find the claim that some people deny the Rape of Nanking hard to believe.
Interesting that you choose to present a 10 year old poll conducted by the pro-independence party instead of easily accessible recent polls conducted by well regarded Taiwanese universities.
I guess those other cherries just didn't look as ripe, eh?
From 2023
"However, in a more stripped-down poll by the Taiwanese Public Opinion Foundation (TPOF, 台灣民意基金會) with only three choices and no nuanced timeline questions, 50% chose independence, 11.8% unification and 25.7% maintain the status quo."
https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4782886
Taiwan does not view itself as a soverign nation, but for most practical purposes it is one. Also, I don't think "definitionally" is a word.
Edit: Apparently "definitionally" is a word. I stand corrected.
Taiwan does not view itself as a soverign nation, but for most practical purposes it is one.
Being a sovereign nation is when you don't have a seat in the UN and most sovereign nations refuse to recognize you as an independent nation.
Being a sovereign nation is when you don't have a seat in the UN and most sovereign nations refuse to recognize you as an independent nation.
I really don't think this is the view people on the left should hold. Someone could say the same thing about many nations or groups that don't have a seat in the UN and aren't recognised but are still supported by communists and anarchists.
De facto, a polity that has a distinct administration which dictates policy within and maintains its own borders.
pretty sure the red light district in my town fits that definition.
Unless you get like seriously scientific about it a sovereign nation is basically vibes based
Sovereignty as a concept in international relations stems from the Treaty of Westphalia, in that each nation has an absolute say within its own borders and that said borders are inviolable.
In which case Ukraine was not sovereign after it was overthrown by America's Nazi coup.
Whether a nation or people is sovereign or not is a statement of reality, and part of sovereignty is whether other sovereign countries are able to vouch for your sovereignty. Just formally acknowledging your sovereignty like having an embassy is the bare minimum, but there's more like defense treaties, economic deals, and joining organizations. At the end of the day, there will be other countries and entities that will seek to challenge and destroy a country's sovereignty and unless you have a fleet of Gundams, you'll need other countries to rush to your defense when it's challenged. Nobody can do it alone.
If you're talking about cases like the ROC being in the UN instead of the PRC even though the PRC is de facto far larger than the ROC, remember that the UN isn't an immutable organization. There's nothing stopping the ROC from denouncing the UN as a sham organization after getting kicked out and starting their own rival organization called the League of United Nations or something and getting other countries to cosign to this new organization. There's nothing stopping the ROC from campaigning their allies (ie the West and various Western vassals) to leave the UN and join the LUN. But for obvious reasons, a LUN would never happen because the ROC doesn't have many allies. Most countries, including its so-called allies, see Taiwan as a US unsinkable aircraft carrier that'll inevitably be reunited with the Mainland, whether peacefully or by force, or be completely destroyed in the process of a US-China war.
Do you know what a sovereign nation is? Whether a state has a seat in the UN is not an indicator of sovereignty. By the way, do you know why the ROC does not have a seat in the UN? The old China, ROC, quitted preemptively so as to not get kicked out by the new China, PRC. By your logic, evidently, a nation can decide whether another nation is sovereign.
Taiwan is currently a Chinese settler colonial regime that functions as an American military base and microchip factory. If they want sovereignty, they should give the land back to the natives they stole it from and return the billions of dollars worth of gold and artifacts they looted from the Qing coffers after they (catastrophically) lost the easiest civil war in history.
The ideological makeup of Taiwan has nothing to do with whether or not they are entitled to sovereignty from a diplomatic perspective. International relations isn't about right and wrong. In fact, the KMT and CPC are in agreement in maintaining the status quo - the KMT and the CPC work together to oppose any attempts at renouncing claims to mainland China by Taiwan and formally becoming the Republic of Taiwan.
Give the land back to the natives? And how exactly would that be done? Handing the government over to them? I would say that 99% of the natives would not want that. The government of Taiwan is already doing enough to make up for the horrible deeds done: the natives enjoy a ×1.35 boost on exams, their statuses and cultures are protected legally, and the government is also pushing natives to learn their native languages.
Is it really that wrong for a government to loot things from its land? In any case, they are also taking good care of the artifacts and opening them up to visitors who wish to see them. The civil war was not that easy either.
There's no valid argument for Taiwan's independence as a Chinese settler colony. As proof, the entire DPP argument depends on Chinese settlers pulling a Liz Warren and pretending to be native. It's also totally incoherent to claim they're a separate country but were also justified in looting billions of dollars worth of gold from "its" land, as if Beijing isn't a thousand miles away from Taipei.
As for the civil war being easy, the KMT had the support of every US president, Stalin, and Hitler, which is just to say they had everyone's support. The KMT flag would be over China right now if they had simply not tried to murder the communists in cold blood. I guess they did make things hard on themselves.
The KMT flag would be over China right now if they had simply not tried to murder the communists in cold blood.
I disagree. Had Chang Hsueh-liang not kidnapped Chiang Kai-shek back in 1936 demanding that he stop fighting communists and form a united front against Japanese, things probably would have been very different. I do not understand why you think that KMT would still rule the entire China if they had not fought the communists.
excerpt from Wikipedia about the Xi'an incident in 1936
On April 6, 1936, Chang met with CPC delegate Zhou Enlai to plan the end of the Chinese Civil War. KMT leader Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek at the time took a passive position against Japan and considered the communists to be a greater danger to the Republic of China than the Japanese, and his overall strategy was to annihilate the communists before focusing his efforts on the Japanese. He believed that "communism was a cancer while the Japanese represented a superficial wound." Growing nationalist anger against Japan made this position very unpopular, and led to Chang's action against Chiang, known as the Xi'an Incident.
In December 1936, Chang and General Yang Hucheng kidnapped Chiang, imprisoning him until he agreed to form a united front with the communists against the Japanese invasion. After two weeks of negotiations, Chiang agreed to unite with the communists and drive the Japanese out of China. When Chiang was released on December 26, Chang chose to return to the capital city of Nanjing with him; once they were away from Chang's loyal troops, Chiang had him placed under house arrest. From then on, he was under constant watch and lived near the Nationalist capital city, wherever it moved to.
Wait, they took their ball and went home and you're defending that as a show of legitimacy?
TBH I don't think "legitimacy" matters. They function as an independent country. They issue passports, and flights between them and the mainland function as international flights despite both countries making up legal mumbo jumbo that calls it "cross-strait travel". There are countries with more widespread "legitimate" recognition that are functionally less of a nationstate than Taiwan.
Also, I don't think "definitionally" is a word.
You think one thing, the dictionary says another.
someone else just linked to "definitionally" on Wiktionary. I stand corrected.
I'm sorry for your financial situation, but I don't think the government can do much about your debt unless it is student debt.
dude its the government they can do whatever they please
They're the US government, they can do whatever the hell they want because they print the money and pay the done pilots.
Ah yes, let's just print more money to pay off people's debts. Why didn't we think of this earlier?
Worked well for the banks and MIC. Wonder why this largesse doesn’t reach the workers
Weird how that’s never an issue when Wall Street is getting bailed out, or the military gets a budget increase of 50 billion or so for the 15th year in a row etc.
Also the current inflation is largely due to corporate greed. And the measure that actually will help with it (rhymes with serpentine) is sadly off the table. For now.
That'll be four F-35 fighters. The wonders of US Military-Industrial complex never fails to amaze me.
It's kind of an open secret that the US refuses to sell Taiwan any top shelf stuff because the US believes the ROC military to be hopelessly compromised. It probably is.
Lol I remember in 2020 Taiwan bought 4 MQ-9 Reaper drones for $600 million (money up front of course, they will be actually delivered in 2025 - will they even still be around at that time?). Then, when Russia shot down (or better "pissed down") another MQ-9 drone over the Black sea, which Western news decried as pricey as 30 million...
Some Taiwanese did some quic maffs then... to discover... Lmao US friends get US friends prices I guess
NOTHING CAN COMPARE TO THE BEST CHINA
FUCKING TRY IT YOU TINY ASS ISLAND THERE ARE BILLIONS OF US
500 MIL?! WHAT LIKE FIVE SHITTY US AIRPLANES? MAYBE A BROKEN TANK?
GO AHEAD USA, LOSE ALL YOUR MILITARY ASSETS IN UNWINNABLE PROXY WARSYOUR ISLAND IS LIKE A FOURTH THE SIZE OF THE AVERAGE MAINLAND PROVINCE
THE ONLY THING YOU GOT IS SEMICONDUCTORS WHICH THE PRC IS BEGINNING TO DO THEMSELVES HAHAHAHAAA
ONE CHINA
BEST CHINAWHATS NEXT USA YOU GONNA TRY TO START A WAR WITH INDIA OVER SRI LANKA?
RUSSIA OVER THE KURIL ISLANDS?
YOU ARE A JOKE! A JOKE! IS THIS REALLY THE GLOBAL HEGEMON?
YOU'D HAVE TO SELL YOUR WHOLE ARMY TO HAVE A CHANCE
-ian third-pillist of taiwan unite
