gender is socially constructed. saying that you prefer "natural born women" is exactly like saying you prefer people who weren't "born a criminal"
gender is socially constructed. saying that you prefer "natural born women" is exactly like saying you prefer people who weren't "born a criminal"
What's the problem here though? I could have a relationship with a trans person but penises are not something I'm interested in. What can I possibly do to change that?
Stop assuming that you know anyone's genitals. That you have to be gay or bisexual to be okay with a set of genitals. That anyone cares about your sex life.
Are you sure you're not a transmisogynist troll?
No, I just seriously don't understand. I would love to understand where you're coming from.
Eventually, in a relationship, you'll come to the point where you'll interact with your partner's genitals right?
Like in the hypothetical situation where I don't know my partner's genitals, eventually in the evolution of the relationship, the topic will come up. Couples have sex- I am not interested in the male sex organ. What can I do to get around that?
Not all trans women have a penis, are you fucking joking.
Yeah, I think I'd be fine with a trans woman who doesn't have a penis. You're kind of lighting me up with things I'm not saying.
I apologize that I don't have the most nuanced understanding to the entirety of the issue nor the full conveyance of my personal position on demand. I can imagine the topic is very infuriating to you, especially when people don't relate to it the same way you do.
the point of the OP is that you don't know until you've talked to a specific person about their personal situation in a very intimate context - so when you apriori judge the entire group as unattractive because of a quality they may or may not possess, you're engaging in transphobia.
Yeah I agree with you, but I think the topic is pretty complex and comes pretty loaded with a lot of background knowledge that everyone seems to be expected to just know.
I don't think it's fair to be put in that situation where no one understands a massive and depressing personal issue-- but at the same time I don't think it's fair to expect and demand that everyone understands or be able to expound on the complete nuance of a complicated topic.
Cis people experience cis-ness and can only experience being cis, they don't have a choice in that. Considering how small the trans community is, most cis probably rarely or if ever interact with trans people. So if I'm not clear on something, it's because it's not a lived experience for me to speak to, not because of transphobia.
Well, this is an LGBT community. The least I would expect is no transphobia and no homophobia. You have failed both and I hope my downvote shames you into being an ally.
what you're describing is called cisnormativity - the presumption that cis people, cis bodies, are normal and that trans people are transgressing and abnormal. the point of this thread is to challenge that notion. cisnormativity is transphobia and it hurts trans people. imagine what it feels like to walk into a thread where everyone is talking about how they don't find you attractive without ever having laid eyes on you because of an abstract quality and factor of your birth.
think about this like race: everyone is transphobic (including trans people) until they've done a lot of work to recognize those tendencies within themselves and root them out. this is necessarily so because we live in a deeply transphobic society and most of the things we're taught about trans people reinforce that societal transphobia. the same way we'd never make excuses for casual racism, we shouldn't make excuses for casual transphobia.
I didn't say that trans people are transgressive or abnormal though. I did say that cis people are the overwhelming majority for better or worse. That's just a fact, I think there are a lot of repressed people out there as well. So I don't like it but it is what it is.
Please stop fixing these values that are not representative of me.
Everybody is transphobic and everybody believes in these "values", even trans people. You have to actively fight against that in order to get rid of that.
Internalized transphobia is the reason you made the first (transphobic) comment. Same goes to homophobia.
I'm not saying you literally said that, I'm talking about a whole family of ideas that stems from that belief.
cis and trans are made up categories that only exist because of the violence done to trans people. saying most people are cis us like saying most Americans are white - well, yeah, but the point is how that happened.
again: would you react to someone pointing out racism in your comments the same way? this site's fragility is something else.
I'm confused, I agree with you.
that's fine but to @gay's point, I'm addressing your internalized transphobia and asking you to work on it.
What is my internalized transphobia exactly? I don't get it.
Well, I'm kind of seeing you two bully this entire thread, even other trans people. There's a lot "if x then y" accusations you're making which is unfair. As you read the thread, clearly "y" is not what the person often if ever meant. It gives no faith to the person you're talking to, which in turn makes them obviously defensive. Which you pre-emptively attack them for.
When you talk to any human being, it's not acceptable to do these kinds of things. This isn't just a cis-fragility thing, this one is on you too.
You don't seem to understand that "cis person dating a trans person" is irrelevant. Saying that you wouldn't date a trans person is transphobic (you make assumptions on their bodies, how they have sex, what they look like) but dating or having sex with trans people is not the way you fix that.
Just think about the way cishet men will have sex and brutalize trans women and still refuse to acknowledge their womanhood (because, misogyny).
If you want to be a better ally, know that not making assumptions is your duty.
But in reality, this argument (original post) is not about a cis person looking for a new trans date. It's about cis people accepting that trans people are their gender, that their bodies are not wrong and that they know what their sexuality is (a trans woman is a woman and she can be a lesbian). AND that the people they're dating/having sex with are not a different sexuality/making an "exception" or that they're secretly trans themselves (cis lesbians dating trans women are lesbians regardless of her partner's body).
I don't disagree with any of that though. I don't think I made any assumptions, I just didn't expound to the nuance you need from me.
And I never said I wouldn't date a trans person, but I did say that if a relationship progressed, male sex organ would be something not for me. And of course, that's not something you can just know.
Irrelevant comments be like:
The original post was that having a preference between cis and trans women is transphobic. I agree, having a preference on illusionary bullshit is phobic. I stated that if a relationship progressed to the point of sex, male sex organ is not for me and that I can't change it.
I think where the problem is that I skipped a lot of details to where that conclusion is relevant and just focused on my personal boundaries (mostly because I thought this was main- not somewhere where I needed to be very clear and concise.)
Yeah, that makes sense. But I'm still gonna need you to accept the internalized transphobia part.
In the most loving and honest possible way to express this: Why?
Because we all have to :)
Oh okay lol my bad for coming off like a jerk