With the Voice to Parliament Referendum date announced to be October 14 2023, this thread will run in the lead up to the date for general discussions/queries regarding the Voice to Parliament.
The Proposed Constitutional Amendment
Chapter IX Recognition of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples
129 Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice
In recognition of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples of Australia:
there shall be a body, to be called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice; the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice may make representations to the Parliament and the Executive Government of the Commonwealth on matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples; the Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power to make laws with respect to matters relating to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice, including its composition, functions, powers and procedures.
Past Discussions
Here are some previous posts in this community regarding the referendum:
- The Voice referendum official Yes/No pamphlets
- Linda Burney says there is everything to gain and nothing to lose by supporting the Voice
- Families distressed after 'highly misleading' video used by anti-Voice campaigners goes viral
- The Indigenous Voice to Parliament – separating fact from fiction | 7.30
- 10 questions about the Voice to Parliament - answered by the experts
- The yes pamphlet: campaign’s voice to parliament referendum essay – annotated and factchecked
- Fact-checking for the "No" referendum pamphlet was not compulsory
Common Misinformation
- "The Uluru Statement from the Heart is 26 Pages not 1" - not true
Government Information
- Referendum question and constitutional amendment
- voice.gov.au - General information about the Voice
Amendments to this post
If you would like to see some other articles or posts linked here please let me know and I'll try to add it as soon as possible.
- Added the proposed constitutional amendment (31/08/2023)
- Added Common Misinformation section (01/07/2023)
Discussion / Rules
Please follow the rules in the sidebar and for aussie.zone in general. Anything deemed to be misinformation or with malicious intent will be removed at moderators' discretion. This is a safe space to discuss your opinion on the voice or ask general questions.
Please continue posting news articles as separate posts but consider adding a link to this post to encourage discussion.
15 years of consultation with aboriginal commmunities across all of Australia.
Developed, vetted and approved by practicing constitutional lawyers.
Good enough for me.
I find it so frustrating when I hear NO campaigners say a constitutive is not required. Politicians should just do their job and it’s easy to consult ATSI people, no voice required.
They literally did that. Consulted ATSI people, as part of a plan to change things, with all major parties on board. They are showing how much they don’t listen by saying that they don’t need the voice to listen? Aaaghhh.
No voters are low-key racists, I 100% believe this- they hide behind some weak arguments to pretend they're progressive, but deep down they are just bigoted at heart. at worst this Yes vote does nothing, at best it changes for the people the well-being and future of indigenous australians. This whole throwing water on the fire instead of using a fire truck is just obfuscation, and they'd also find a reason to vote No for the fire truck as well.
"Everyone who doesn't agree with me is a racist even the Aboriginal Australians"
There are valid reasons to vote no. However most no voters seem to jump on all the excuses to try and justify their stance. Even when two reasons are contradictory.
Then complain that the YES side call them racist. I do think they don't consider themselves racist. They think their opinions are just 'common sense' rather than discrimination. Or that the injustices are too long ago, ignoring current injustice.
The way I see it is we have 3 options. The voice. No change Another unnamed option.
They are against the voice. They recognize, for the most part, that there is injustice, but have no alternative path. To me, that's intellectual dishonesty. If you recognize there is a problem, you either propose a solution or go with the proposed current actions to help, or accept status quo. A nonvite is a vote for status quo, but with added divisiveness sue to attempts made to actually have change, that are now rejected.
You can be pro-Voice and anti referendum. The issue is that the proposed amendment is offensively ineffectual.
Claiming that the progressive NO has no path forward is intellectually dishonest. Just because you don't know what it is doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
I've explained extensively why the referendum rubbish elsewhere in the thread. I can't enlighten you if you refuse to pull your head out of where the sun doesn't shine.
Yes, you've given your spurious reasons for a no. Still no proposed solution instead.
Maybe if you spent less time insulting people and more time being constructive, you'd see better than the proverbial head up an ass.
The Yes vote isn’t a solution either though, it’s virtue signalling. The only thing that would be constitutionally protected is a vague “seat at the table” that is 100% at the discretion of the current party in power. It’s basically a token gesture that can be used to then stop making any actual progress. The voice position literally holds no power whatsoever.
Yes, it’s not meant to hold power. That’s why it’s called the voice. It’s the ability to speak and be heard. It’s not just a token gesture though. It adds pressure on any government who does not listen as to why they did not. It’s the same as the press. They hold power by holding government to account.
That’s a token gesture in every way.
“We’ll let you speak, like we always do, but we won’t guarantee we’ll listen or do what you say”.
The solution is simple. Do what the Uluru statement says. Make a voice for Indigenous Peoples that is enshrined in the constitution.
Don't settle for a cardboard cut out version of the voice. Be angry that the racists running your country would try to lie to you to pretend that this will fix things. Be mad that they would waste so much money and time and effort to do a performative gesture. Tell them you are angry.
Do you expect Oil companies and Coal miners to stop pollution on their own? Why would you expect the colonial government operating on stolen land to actually force themselves to have accountability to the very people who they are stealing from? Voting Yes for the current amendment is just encouraging the poor behaviour. Its enabling the quiet racists and helping them hide.
Our government needs to be bullied and harassed until they have no choice to do what is right. They will not do it voluntarily. If they pass this referendum they will act like their last place participation ribbon in the anti-racism olympics is a world record setting gold medal and they will never strive anything better.
The voice enshrined in the constitution is the plan. The state,ent does not discuss its make up, nor the election process, nor the fine details. The constitution shouldn’t either. It may need fine tuning to be effective, not be rorted by bad actors, and to be representative. If all that is in the constitution, it’s harder to change later. For an example, look at what the constitution says about how we elect senators, who would have more power. Very little. It’s left to the states to legislate.
A no vote to reject what you call a performative gesture is more damaging than a performative gesture. I don’t think it’s just a performative gesture, to be clear, but it’s a poor argument.
I don’t expect any corporation or person to do the right thing unless it’s in their interest. I expect the voice to be a check on the powers in government, rather than a power themselves. Just like the oil and gas and mining industry has paid lobbyists that are very effective, the voice can do the same, but for the people. The press has no powers in the constitution, but Murdoch, for instance, has had huge power just be nature of his abi,it’s to spread information with his slant on it. The voice will have power, but it won’t have power to control our government.
Change comes slowly and then in a sprint. Stopping that progress doesn’t advance anyone’s rights and is a misguided understanding of how governance works. Your ideal is not necessarily everyone’s ideal. Even this limited change for the better is at risk of failure. A more extreme version would be even more so. Your resistance to good enough, instead of ideal is just as bad as the racists in outcome, even if your intentions are good.
I disagree with your opinions they are vibes based and not based on historical evidence. Expecting members of the government to work against their own self interests is silly.
Yes voters are one who want to enshrine racism in constitution. Any mention of race is racism, but majority is so brainwashed to fail to understand it.
This is my take.
I really don't know anything about the, nor the issues faced by indigenous Australians, nor the best way to address them. This just isn't relevant to my day to day.
That said, if I made a list of people who's opinions I respect and polled them I'm sure it would be overwhelmingly "yes".
A summary of my viewpoint:
I am enormously sick of the no campaign brigading every discussion with terrible arguments in bad faith.
I have yet to encounter a legal expert, or for that matter, an Indigenous Australian who is accepted by their community, who is opposed. Similarly, the law is my degree. I've spent five years of my life studying it, and although I'm not a graduate yet (two units to go), I'd think I'd know more about this shit than Joe from bumfuck nowhere on Facebook.
There is no case for a no vote. None whatsoever. The change would not grant special rights to Indigenous Australians. It has been repeatedly explained by both lawyers and politicians. You can read the change yourself. It has to be a constitutional change, because that protects it from being outright removed by successive governments, which is the very thing that happened to the previous body that performed this role. By definition, it is not racist, as racism refers to negative treatment on the basis of race or ethnic background, and not differing treatment. This is one of three steps proposed by Indigenous Australians towards reconciliation, and isn't the endpoint. If it fails, it will be the endpoint.
When the colonisers arrived, Indigenous Australians outnumbered colonisers. Now, they make up just 2.5% of the population. We are driving them to extinction. If this fails, by the time we get around to trying again, it is likely the genocide will have all but been completed.
Ethically and morally, a yes vote is the only choice. Legally, it is the best choice for change.
Just to point out, racism does not have to be negative treatment. Racism just has to be inequitable. The proposed amendment creates a system for Indigenous Australians, which is unavailable to other Australians. That is inequitable.
The changes needed can be achieved without a Constitutional amendment.
The changes needed can be achieved without a Constitutional amendment.
and removed next term when the next quasi fascist gets elected.
frankly im a little sick of the 'no' side claiming the Voice will both do nothing, but simultaneously cause some sort of irrepairable divide that will destroy the nation.
And every. single. cooker. is loudly vocally on the No side. Which makes it an easy choice for me
Insulting people and labelling people with whom you disagree doesn't foster good discussion and only emboldens their position
The alternative is a bunch of little shitshows to keep track of, so this is somewhat easier to moderate
Can you put the actual amendment in the post and ask people to read it before debating? It seems funny to have a discussion about something without having it there in front of us.
those people are more than happy to do the same. Wanting a respectful response in return? lol no
edit: dont worry just thinking out loud, my intention wasnt to derail the thread and on thought this thread should be a place for discussing the voice not the riff raff. apologies
Thanks for asking for feedback. The bit about cookers is worded a bit vaguely in such a way that it is unclear whether the converse is implied, that is, every vocal no voter is a cooker or a significant portion of vocal 'no' voters are cookers. And to be honest I do agree with that - just look at The Guardian's fact checking of the official 'No' essay, most of it was made up. It's just that using the term 'cooker' is probably not the most respectful way to convey that
all good. sorry mate i dont mean to sidetrack the thread, ill go back to lurking, thanks for the response
and removed next term when the next quasi fascist gets elected.
Come on, this is just FUD, plain and simple.
If the voice does turn out to be a white elephant, then we should have the flexibility to remove it and try again with a different model. I'm 100% on board with the Government of the day legislating a body, but I don't believe it should be in the constution, and I doubt I'm the only one.
Using inflammatory language is not the way to try and convince people one way or the other.
Can't we just have another referendum to remove it if it's that bad?
Of course that's an option in theory - but in practice, referendums are incredibly expensive operations, not to mention generally damaging to public discourse of other issues.
Most Governments would prefer to just reduce any funding for the body down to the bare minimum required, and have it sit impotently to the side, rather than front up and say 'yeah nah, this didn't work, so here's another big money spend to fix the constitutional issue we created while we think of something else'.
But but that logic, it’s either not bad enough to be worth removing, or the government of the day has no real need to remove it.
Ergo, it being in the constitution is not really a problem.
The government only has no real need to remove it if they're happy with the status quo regarding inequality - they can still point to the (presumingly failed) body and say 'we tried' and not bother with something better.
and removed next term when the next quasi fascist gets elected.
nothing in the referendum stops that if you actually read it.
this is inequitable
Not what equity means. Equity refers to equal access to the same opportunities. Put simply, due to their post-genocide, White Australia Policy and "Breeding out the Black" (real campaign) numbers, Indigenous Australians completely lack representation in Parliament. Therefore they lack access to the opportunities your average Australian (regardless of race) has. An Indigenous Voice to Parliament will make things more equitable, not less, as it will provide access to the same opportunities of representation that the rest of us have already.
Indigenous Australians completely lack representation in Parliament
There are Indigenous Australians in Parliament so this cannot be true.
it will provide access to the same opportunities of representation that the rest of us have already
I get a vote and that's it, Indigenous Australians also get a vote.
Sounds like the same opportunity for representation to me.
These parliamentarians don't necessarily represent or advocate for Indigenous Australians as they represent everyone in their electorate. Anthony Albanese doesn't just represent the Italians in his electorate, he represents everyone. That's how majority based systems work. The majority based system is a problem when you have a minority group who are so disadvantaged and have limited ways of having their voices heard. Especially when it's about policies and laws that affect them specifically.
which is unavailable to other Australians
Perhaps you should look up just how many existing governmental advisory bodies there are that have zero relation to the indigenous population. Maybe we should go and revoke them, you know, for equality
I think you need to look up the definition of equity with regards to human rights. You have it completely the wrong way around.
I have yet to encounter a legal expert, or for that matter, an Indigenous Australian who is accepted by their community, who is opposed.
Literally every one of my indigenous friends and colleagues that I've spoken to are voting no, including some who work for our government and are very well respected in their communities and in the government. Some run indigenous businesses and not for profits, some are elders and aunties/uncles, many are actively out there trying to make life better for indigenous people. I wasn't sure which way to vote, but I'll be voting no after speaking to them.
They all echoed the same thoughts - it's virtue signalling, and they don't want a seat at that table where they are not guaranteed to actually be listened to or respected.
And good for you, however, this doesn't mean that all Indigenous Australians, or at least a majority, are against it. Polling in the Guardian's fact-checking article claims 80% approval.
Stating that all Indigenous Australians who you know are against it isn't a valid argument. Your real argument is that "it's virtue signalling"
Stating that all Indigenous Australians who you know are against it isn’t a valid argument.
I didn't say that was the argument though. As you noted, I gave the reasons why they said they were voting no and why I'll be voting no as well, because I agree with them. It just looks like white people virtue signalling so they can go "look how awesome and not racist we are! we're giving the indigenous people some crayons and a seat at the table where we can continue to not listen to them" while also making them feel good because they then feel justified in being able to call people they disagree with racists.
I don't get the issue with 'virtue signalling'. At all.
Before any societal change can happen, a pre-requisite is virtuous behaviour and 'signals'?
This is clearly a journey, not the end destination. So why on earth would you want to not take the first step just because it doesn't take you instantly to the destination?
You do realise what happened after the republican referendum lost? You won't see this again in at least a generation. That's what we're really voting on. No will mean "Yeah, nah. The people voted on that. Maybe take a look again in (waves hand) the future".
And you know every time something remotely to do with indigenous rights/culture comes up, people will refer back and say "The country voted No".
But thank god, at least we will have defeated "virtue signalling".....
The issue with virtue signalling is that it’s used to pretend you’re doing something without actually having to do it. The voice is pretending to give the indigenous people some power while not actually giving them anything noteworthy. They’re acknowledged in the white settler’s constitution but basically as an afterthought for us to ignore.
My, and many others issue, is that this “first step” will in fact be treated for decades as the destination. We don’t want nothing to be done to help indigenous people, we want more done to help them. We want meaningful change, something protected that actually gives them power, not a promise that we’ll let them say something without promising that we’ll listen and take action.
Will some people point to a no win as “nothing needs to be done”? Absolutely, but I think those will just be the minority of straight up racists. More people will still want something done, just not token gestures.
If you can't get a Yes vote on such a "meaningless, token" (I'd rather call it 'symbolic', or 'aspirational') change, then how can you expect or hope for more substantial changes to pass?
Well I’m voting no because it’s meaningless. We shouldn’t be putting meaningless things in to the constitution.
If it was actually meaningful change I’d be voting yes.
It's all good. Everyone is entitled to vote how they want, and for whatever reason they want.
I'm just feeling a bit sad, because I don't see this passing, and I can't see any path forward without a Yes vote 🙁
That’s honestly the only thing making me consider voting yes. I don’t want to be partly responsible for nothing being done even if I don’t think voting yes will do anything either.
It's only meaningless in the sense it doesn't have any legislative power. Committees like this have strong roots in our democracy and have extreme benefit both to policy institutes and parliament itself in developing legislation. Parliamentary practice in this country would be dysfunctional if legislative committees and policy institutes didn't exist, this is just allowing that same power of research and representation that is afforded to committees to a group of people who had their sovereignty and institutions stripped from them with zero recourse.
I think it's worth basically ignoring anyone who says "I've spoken to indigenous people." In fact I would suggest anyone (for or against) who speaks to people around them and makes that judgment should consider consulting surveys/polls, rather than relying on their small circles as a sample size.
"I've spoken to indigenous people."
Where did they say that? Are you really going to call the user a liar for saying they know Indigenous Australians? That's weak tea.
Literally every one of my indigenous friends and colleagues that I've spoken to are voting no,
Did you forget what you wrote?
2 points:
- Anyone can say they have indigenous friends or have spoken to indigenous people. In fact Peter Dutton has been doing that this whole time. This is a largely anonymous forum so there's no reason to believe anyone who says "ah yeah I spoke to a guy."
- We have polling on indigenous peoples opinions on the voice. The people we surround ourselves with or we encounter in our daily lives are an insignificant sample size and subject to selection bias.
I didn't write it. Whirlybird didn't just say "I've spoken to indigenous people" they gave examples of the different people they spoke with. Just because you haven't ever had a real conversation with an Aboriginal Australian doesn't mean none of us have.
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If you don't trust anyone on here why bother? It isn't difficult to discern a bad faith argument.
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You trust polling but not another human that you are peaking to through the internet? Anecdotal evidence isn't perfect but polling has financial reasons to push lies and special accounting tricks to make the numbers say whatever they want.
The polling is massively skewed. I cant find a single poll where they exclude anyone who hasn't read the proposed amendment.
Indigenous peoples want a voice to parliament that is enshrined and protected by the constitution and so do I But the majority of the yes voters have been misled to believe the referendum will give them that. Anyone who reads the constitutional amendment critically will see it is the way the referendum is written is just a empty gesture to delay real action.
They didn't give any more examples than a politician saying they've spoken to people in the community.
- If you don't trust anyone on here why bother? It isn't difficult to discern a bad faith argument.
As far as I'm concerned anyone making this sort of argument should be ignored because it's the easiest form of bad faith argument.
- You trust polling but not another human that you are peaking to through the internet? Anecdotal evidence isn't perfect but polling has financial reasons to push lies and special accounting tricks to make the numbers say whatever they want.
This is true, and you can make an argument against the polling, but that's an argument that can actually be had. You can't argue with random anecdotes. I don't understand how you can simultaneously point out legit issues with polls but also accept unverifiable anecdotes.
Anyone who reads the constitutional amendment critically will see it is the way the referendum is written is just a empty gesture to delay real action.
I agree it's a risk. There's a lot of really easy things the country could be doing to help indigenous Australians and this may not help while just being a massive distraction.
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We have polling on indigenous peoples opinions on the voice. The people we surround ourselves with or we encounter in our daily lives are an insignificant sample size and subject to selection bias.
You think the people responding to polls aren't subject to selection bias? I don't care what polls of random people with unknown selection criteria and reach say, I care about what the people I know and trust have to say on the issue. Blindly believing polls is absolutely absurd.
This is a largely anonymous forum so there’s no reason to believe anyone who says “ah yeah I spoke to a guy.”
Cool, so why should anyone listen to anything you say?
Polls are only so accurate and can be subject to a range of issues as well sure. The difference is the sample size is much larger, and you can generally find a polling organisations methodology so you can probably see how they collected results broadly, if you have an issue with the methodology you should argue with that.
Cool, so why should anyone listen to anything you say?
You shouldn't if I make claims that I know people and they say X.
Oh god, even the “progressives” here have started calling everyone that they disagree with fascists now.
You’re virtue signalling a bit too hard mate. People like you are why many indigenous people don’t want this Voice.
This comment was removed as it contained personal attacks against the creator of the parent comment. While you may not agree with someone it does not imply that they are fascist
I have yet to encounter a legal expert, or for that matter, an Indigenous Australian who is accepted by their community, who is opposed.
Lidia Thorpe? ex-Greens senator who split because she is against the referendum?
I'm still not sure I get Lidia's arguments tbh. I agree with her on treaty and I honestly don't know why (other than being a pack of racists) we haven't implemented the recommendation of the royal commission into indigenous deaths in custody, I'm just not sure that voting the voice down is a good move or would even help get those things done. It could make Australia wake up to its past by giving it a shock, but just (maybe more) likely the referendum failing will empower racists.
I'm just not sure that voting the voice down is a good move or would even help get those things done.
Would voting up a powerless voice help get them done? It would be used as a way to put off further action. "What? You don't need a treaty. We gave you a Voice to parliament last decade."
Have you read the Statement from the Heart? I just posted it to the thread if you want to check it out. I have no idea why it isn't central to the discussion, because the statement is literally where all this is coming from.
The Voice is the first step towards a treaty. That's basically what Makarrata means in English. If a treaty were to happen today, who would it be with? Which of the hundreds of tribes across the land should be chosen to represent aboriginal peoples? We all need a body representing first nations to open these dialogues with.
I have read the Uluru statement. It asks for a voice that is enshrined in the constitution. The referendum does nothing to enshrine the voice in the constitution. The wording of the proposed amendment leave all the details of how the voice is implemented up to government and subject to its whims.
What good is a voice that is subject to parliament? If the government of the day can stack it with sycophants or gut it at a whim they can negotiate a treaty on the worst possible terms. The process of how the voice is structured, chosen, and its powers need to be enshrined in the constitution and the proposed amendment does not do that.
My thinking boils down to this:
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We spend billions each year, but studies show the gap between other Australians and indigenous is worsening. We should be trying something. Anything.
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For those concerned about 'the details', my understanding is that the pollies are responsible for those after the referendum. Do you really think a parliament and senate made up of mainly old white guys are going to significantly change how the country works? Seriously?
So, we've got nothing to lose, and hell, wouldn't it be awesome if it actually had some positive changes!
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Why has every piece of "information" about the No vote always boil down to "we don't know". But the yes voters have a bunch of answers to every question.
Because the no campaign isn't interested in answers, they just want to spread FUD.
Its not "we don't know" its that the Referendum makes the Voice subject to parliament. The lack of details on how the voice will operate means that there is no protection from the constitution. It is not a Voice enshrined in the Constitution. The voice we will get if the amendment is passed is the same as the voice we would get if Parliament made a voice without a referendum.
This is the first referendum voting experience for me so I'm excited to be part of history even if the outcome is not the one I want. I'm personally in the critical yes camp where I hope the referendum is successful but still agree with the points raised by the progressive no campaign. I was unsure for a while because I'm not an Indigenous person and wanted to listen to as many different Indigenous perspectives as I could before deciding. What really pushed me to yes was the idea that while not every person who votes no is racist, all racists will vote no.
I have serious issues with the idea of progressive no - it's bad faith at worst, purity politics at best. "Nonono don't throw that bucket of water on the fire i want a fire truck" the former doesn't preclude the latter ffs.
Everyone is entitled to their viewpoint and it's not my place to say what is or isn't a good approach to change in this space. The progressive no campaign is connected to the Indigenous sovereignty movement and I can understand why they have taken the position they have. I'm not an Indigenous person so I don't feel like it's appropriate for me to try and represent their ideas. But I don't think it's fair to close yourself off to them, especially when the principle of the voice should is about listening to the diversity of Indigenous perspectives.
What if the throwing of the bucket is used by the arsonists as justification for not calling the fire truck? What if the bucket was built by the people who have acted in the interests of the arsonists in the first place? What if the bucket isn't full of water it is just a bucket?
What if a no vote is used as 'proof' no one wants indigenous representation? I can play that game too.
"The voice" is literally just enshrining in the constitution an indigenous presence in parliament. What the ever loving fuck do your other arguments have to do with this fact. What. Show your fucking work.
What if a no vote is used as 'proof' no one wants indigenous representation
A No result could just as easily be blamed on the poor wording of the referendum.
Show your fucking work.
No need to be so aggressive I'm trying to debate here in good faith. Read the proposed amendment.
Parliament shall ... have power to make laws ... relating to the ... Voice.
So all they are doing is giving parliament the power to do something that it already has the power to do. The amendment doesn't even go as far to say that any changes to the voice after it is established would need 3/4 majority or any other protections. The amendment is a nothingburger.
That's what happened after the 2000 republic referendum. It was said that lots of people who voted no wanted a republic, but thought the wording of the question was wrong.
It ultimately doesn't matter, because 23 years later there has never been another referendum on the topic.
If you believe a no vote for the voice is going to inspire a better worded referendum - or any sort of change on the status quo in the next couple of decades, well I'm afraid I'm going to disagree with you. A "No" vote is a vote for no change for the next generation.
I don't disagree with most of what you said but if you think a Yes vote is going to change the status quo you are going to be disappointed. The referendum passing will do as much for the next generation as "Closing the gap" did for this one only the lack of action will be blamed on the Voice not on the government.
Now I'm really confused. We've essentially agreed that a "No" vote will change nothing. Common ground is good!
Even if a "yes" vote did nothing (which most of us disagree with, but let's honour your vision), it would at the very least show that most of the population wants change. You have nothing to lose in showing a little hope. Why would you vote against that?
From what I can make out, your concerns are:
- "Yes" doesn't go far enough.
- The makeup of the body is not defined clearly enough.
On your first point: More common ground! I also don't want to stop here. But that's the whole point. We start with a voice to parliament, and hopefully go on a journey together toward healing and reconciliation. We end with a treaty that has brought us together as one people.
On your second point: that's not what the constitution is for. If you put too much detail into your body there, you are stuck with that definition. A body of 10 people might be appropriate today, but inadequate in 30 years. But as it says 10 in the constitution, we are stuck with that - forever. The idea of the article in the constitution is to describe what the body is for, and the details can be adjusted as needed.
"Yes" doesn't go far enough.
A Yes vote manufactures consent. It is saying "this is good enough" It allows Racists cover. A No result opens the nation up to well deserved ridicule. Our government will never do what is right unless they are bullied extensively and made to feel shame. Half measures like this amendment allow them to skate along with no action. We need anti-Racists to be angry. We need a real movement that demands real change not a pacified voter base that accepts platitudes.
The makeup of the body is not defined clearly enough.
No it is defined perfectly well. It is explicitly defined as being subject to parliament which is NOT enshrined in the constitution. The amendment offers no protections beyond its existence. It is a underhanded insult to indigenous peoples who stated clearly that they want an Indigenous Voice to Parliament Enshrined in the constitution.
The "Journey together toward healing and reconciliation" was supposed to start 48 years ago with Gough Whitlam. It was supposed to start with the National Apology 24 years ago, with the closing the gap program 13 years ago. The colonial government will keep throwing ineffectual policy at voters as long as we keep gobbling them up.
The idea of the article in the constitution is to describe what the body is for, and the details can be adjusted as needed.
Sure but couldn't they have at least put is some protections for the voice? Something like "it can only be modified once every 10 years" or "requires 2/3rds majority to change." Something, anything that gives the voice an edge against our reactionary government?
The voice could have been legislated into existence first and then tweaked before making a constitutional amendment. This was a suggestion with lots of support before the referendum was called. If the voice was a concrete thing the referendum wouldn't be subject to emotional debate based on speculation. Making the voice first and then enshrining it might take longer to get it enshrined but it would be quicker to get it started and once it was in the constitution the fight would be over. Doing the refferemdum first makes the fight last indefinitely because the legislation will always be under threat. This was a deliberate choice by the ruling class because they will give up the illusion of power but they will never give up their right to take the power back.
in parliament
I'm afraid not, the voice will only be able to "make representations to" parliament, just like everyone else.
Source: the proposed amendment itself
the voice will only be able to "make representations to" parliament, just like everyone else.
Not "able" the voice "may" make representations. Who decides when they may? Oh right that is left to parliament.
Its a gag order written in a passive tone.
Ok, no.
In legal terms 'may' means the Voice may act at their discretion (differing from 'shall', which is an obligation)
May is discretionary but it is not clear in this instance as to who decides... until the last line where it says that parliament gets to decide the powers of the voice. It is clear that the voice has the choice to not make representations but it is not cut and dry that Parliament must accept representations.
If they wanted it cut and dry they would have said "the Parliament and the Executive Government of the Commonwealth shall receive any representations on matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples made by the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice" instead of using "may" which is subject to challenges.
You seems to think this amendment was written by people who want what is best for Aboriginal Australians and not made by people who directly benefit from the injustices committed against Aboriginal Australians.
'May' is used, (in addition to other reasons) because otherwise it creates a legal obligation on the Voice, to make representations.
Then that would have to be regulated by parliamentary legislation, stating exactly when and how often the Voice legally has to make representations (once a year? Twice a year?) and when exactly.
Even your example of 'the legislature and executive "shall receive" representations from the Voice' sets up the necessity of creating parliamentary legistion to regulate, as they would be needed to define how often and in what form (Email? Formal oration to shared session of HoR and Senate? Document submitted to Cabinet? Oration to Cabinet in a specific ceremonial format? Or to Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet?) those representations are to be made, in order for parliament to "receive them"
And "shall receive" still puts the legal/constitutional obligation on the Voice to come up with and present those representations, (even if they've nothing important to say at that time, or need more time to discuss an issue) and then obey all those parliamentary regulations in order to fulfil the constitutional obligations you've just created.
The current wording allows that a formal constitutional body, calling itself the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice, may make representations to Parliament and the Executive, and therefore that those representations will be formally recognised as coming from a constitutionally enshrined and recognised Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander entity. The current wording doesn't force them to make representations, and more importantly, doesn't mean the creation and the Voice having to follow strict rules about when, how, and how often those representations are made.
With the current wording, if the Voice decided they wanted to present their representation as a handwritten piece of paper hand-delivered to the Prime Minister, they could. Because any legislation that blocks the Voice from making a representation to the Executive would be found unconstitutional. And any legislation moderating and regulating how the Voice can make those representations could be potentially challenged in the High Court if they negatively impinge the Voice's ability to make those representations.
Basically, the current constitutional wording allows for the creation of an ATSI Voice that can't be told to shut up.
And also importantly, can't be closed down and discontinued through a legislative act of parliament.
'May' is used, (in addition to other reasons) because otherwise it creates a legal obligation on the Voice, to make representations.
It is up to the voice to make representations and the voice should want to make a representation on everything that effects Aboriginal Australians. Eve if the representation is "I don't hate this" The word may means the government isn't obligated to receive representations. As it is right now anyone "may" make a representation to parliament but it is up to parliament to accept or ignore such representations. The wording in the proposed amendment changes nothing.
And "shall receive" still puts the legal/constitutional obligation on the Voice to come up with and present those representations
If the voice wants to be heard it has to do the talking. (I feel stupid for having to say that) Who else should have the responsibility to make and present representations for the voice other than the voice?
The current wording doesn't force them to make representations, and more importantly, doesn't mean the creation and the Voice having to follow strict rules about when, how, and how often those representations are made.
Sure but the wording also doesn't force Parliament receive the representations either. They could receive a single representation once a decade and claim to have done their duty. Because the powers and construction of the voice is left to the Parliament to legislate and future governments to modify the government ultimately decides when and how the Voice can speak. It is a soft form gag order.
And also importantly, can't be closed down and discontinued through a legislative act of parliament.
The don't have to close down the voice they can just defund and declaw it till it is inoffensive. Again the funding, composition, and powers of the voice are all subject to legislature and thus not enshrined in the constitution.
....... legalese on a countries constitution and your fee fees on 'weasel words' have zero relation to one another. Please stop.
So good to have people like you willing to debate in good faith using facts and reason.
sure thing, dude. I mean, I'm not the one who's been making accusations left right and centre and hurling shit at everyone else in this thread to the point the mods start nuking, but you do you.
What really pushed me to yes was the idea that while not every person who votes no is racist, all racists will vote no.
Sorry but that's not a very smart way to make a decision. It's a terrible way actually.
Ok cool. You do you, I'll do me. There's no need to attack each other's approach to decision making.
That person is a no voter, and not the progressive kind. It's no surprise they took offence to your original comment.
😂 ah yes, more “everyone that votes no is racist” rhetoric.
I didn’t take offence, I pointed out it’s a terrible way of making a decision.
I think my very first voting experience was the republic referendum. I really didn't know what I was doing or how to research. But all these years later, I stand by my vote.
I am voting Yes for The Voice because team Yes have put up an good case for it. Team No have yet to convince me otherwise; Everything I read is either vague speculation or miss information.
I wish I got to vote in the Republic referendum. What was the rhetoric like in comparison to the current one? Did anyone make a fuss about the ticks and crosses thing?
I'm trying to understand the No voters.
They're saying because the details haven't been ironed out, the Voice could be given much more power than is proposed.
But in their worst case scenario, what do they think is going to happen?
At this point I've just come to the conclusion the no people are most likely racists in hiding. The whole special rights/excessive powers/etc is just a cover story imo
Ah yes, the many many indigenous people campaigning for no are racist against themselves. You hit the nail on the head.
That's now what they said. Have you hit yourself on the head?
He said that the no voters are racist……have you taken a fall yourself?
the conclusion that the "no" people are most likely racists in hiding
the conclusion that indigenous people campaigning for "no" are racist against themselves
Different hits to different heads? I don't know what to tell you.
I can’t tell if you’re just taking the piss or actually think that he didn’t say that everyone voting no is a racist….? Or are you suggesting that 100% of indigenous people are voting yes?
Maybe I have hit myself on the head because I sure don't remember offering any opinions.
You’re the perfect example of the virtue signalling white person I mentioned in another comment. You feel good about yourself because you think you’re helping the black people and you then feel even better because you get to call everyone else racists…….even indigenous people that you are pretending you care about.
Those insert slur here will get uppity!
That's their worst case scenario. No longer playing with a stacked deck.
The worst case scenario for them is that marginalised groups might start getting a greater say over the policies and laws that affect them. If Indigenous Australians are awarded more power in a system that is designed to keep them powerless then who knows what other groups in a similar situation of powerlessness might start getting uppity about.
The conservative no campaign don't want to change the status quo because they don't have a problem with it. Shit's working fine in their view. The yes campaign and progressive no campaign agree that the status quo is not good enough but disagree about how it needs to be changed.
If you read the conservative no campaign's brochure one of the concerns that they have about the voice is that it opens the door to activism. I personally think that is the foundation of their position and everything else is just incoherent fluff to wrap it up in.
The worst case scenario for them is that marginalised groups might start getting a greater say over the policies and laws that affect them.
Ah yes, that explains the marginalised group of indigenous Australians that are against this and voting no. They're afraid that they'll get a greater say over policies.
You guys are acting ridiculous, trying to paint every single person that is voting no as a scared racist. As with most other types of activists, you're doing more harm than good with your rhetoric.
You'd probably be one of those white guys in American saying the "negros" don't want equal rights or to be able to marry white women for the same reasons lol.
So you think that all indigenous people want this voice?
https://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au/sport/boxing-mma/why-the-hell-do-we-need-the-voice-boxing-star-anthony-mundine-slams-referendum/news-story/a387682585d0dc9f541916a5f1127786
Look at this fascist white guy. He’s so white he’s black.
Lets just say he has some problematic ideas. He has been involved in professions prone to causing extensive brain damage. I'm not going to say his entire opinion is wrong but he uses buzz words and phrases that are common is far-right and conspiracy theory circles.
There are more qualified people who have good credibility like Lidia Thorpe who's arguments are well formed and don't inadvertently reference less reputable ideas.
The point being made was that he’s indigenous and voting no, which apparently makes him a white racist according to some other posters in here that I’m replying to.
I dislike Mundine, I think he’s an idiot and a cancer to those young people that he takes under his wing, but he’s indigenous and voting no, not a racist white.
Also if there has been one thing Mundine has always been consistent about, it’s his views on systemic racism against his people and being vocal about it.
Its not that the details haven't been ironed out its that none of the details will be protected by the constitution.
The wording of the referendum makes the voice a political football.
Okay, then what happens when the football is dropped? What's the worst that could happen in the eyes of both parties?
This is one of the no sides more compelling arguments.
Its a consideration for all office holders, but more so if you're the Liberal/National party that see's a reasonable chance of holding power someday.
Historically this side of politics interests have disagreed more often with indigenous nations interests.
To disagree and ignore the Voice councils recommendations could leech political capital, and a resulting media storm could use up all the 'air in the room', so to speak. Undermining that executives ability to carry out their agenda.
In short it can be an easy political wedge for opposition partys, or other interested persons to hit the government of the day with.
The right is always the one who wins political Football.
The voice will become an impotent political appointment to stuff a friend into as a favor like the appeals court or ABC Board. Nothing will change materially for indigenous peoples but settlers will get to pretend they aren't racists because they voted yes.
I honestly don't know how I'm going to vote. Something is needed, but is it this?
I agree with a concern from the 'no' camp, that this ends up being a bandaid or virtue-signalling; and if it passes then "job well done" and we don't keep moving forward.
Otoh, I very much fear that if the result is 'no', we have collectively just affirmed racism - the overt, the systemic, and the subtextual.
I have family planning to vote both ways, and they have put considered thought into their positions, not just gut reactions.
But I don't know, for me. I don't think I can in good conscience vote 'no', but I have not yet convinced myself that I can vote 'yes'.
Your concerns are valid. I don't think it's a wild position to expect action from The Voice as a measure of success, and not virtue signalling. Race politics in this country is ugly. If the Yes camp wins, they will celebrate in a way that the No camp will label virtue signalling. And if the No camp wins, they will decry victory over political correctness. Respectful debate is unlikely irrespective of the outcome.
All that said — The Voice will be independent of the Government of the day. If the Government fails to act, The Voice will speak directly to the Government, the media and the community, announcing failure. I believe this will create a powerful political incentive to listen and act on the recommendations of The Voice in a unique way that our system currently does not have.
All political parties have issues with racism to various degrees — Liberals, Greens, Labor, all of 'em. The Voice will hold them accountable for their respective failures. Given that politicians loath transparency, it's a fundamentally good idea to have an indigenous body to hold politicians to direct account.
A recent example of how this may play out is in Queensland, where Labor is potentially liable for tens of millions of dollars, for inhumane child detention in so-called 'watch' houses. The Guardian has an excellent article on this issue. If Australia had an advisory body like The Voice, the sheer amount of attention that would be given on this issue would unquestionably force Labor to prioritise rectifying this issue. Currently, this issue is being played out in the courts, which is an important component of justice, but I'd argue that an expedited solution would occur if The Voice existed.
Pardon the long post. If you want any recommendations for balanced and fair podcasts, articles or resources, please let me know. Happy to help. And all the best otherwise x
The Voice will be independent of the Government of the day.
Not True.
the Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power to make laws with respect to matters relating to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice, including its composition, functions, powers and procedures.
It is what the majority of Indigenous Australians surveyed, as well as the overwhelming majority of people involved in the process, have indicated they want. The Progressive No campaign has some valid criticisms but ultimately I don't feel it is my responsibility as a non-Indigenous person to vote No on behalf of a minority. The way I see it, that side lost their internal battle years ago and we are now at a stage where the best way to show respect is to vote Yes.
“Chapter IX Recognition of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples
129 Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice
In recognition of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples of Australia:
there shall be a body, to be called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice; the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice may make representations to the Parliament and the Executive Government of the Commonwealth on matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples; the Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power to make laws with respect to matters relating to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice, including its composition, functions, powers and procedures.
This referendum does not establish a First Nations Voice enshrined in the Constitution. This Amendment is a nothingburger. They didn't even enshrine the right for the Voice to address parliament. They said the voice "may" make representations to the Parliament and the Executive. I'm pretty sure anyone "may" make representations to the Parliament and the Executive if the Parliament and the Executive see fit.
The Parliament already has power to make laws with respect to matters relating to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice. The whole point was to make a "Voice enshrined in the Constitution" not to enshrine in the constitution a Voice subject to parliament.
I don't care how you vote but if you think this referendum will make Aboriginal Australians' lives better you are kidding yourself. This is a performative measure so that people can feel good about themselves while they continue to live on stolen land and profit from genocide.
Language like may has specific interpretations under law. I'm not a constitutional lawyer but it probably means something like they don't have to if they have nothing to say but that Parliament has to listen if they do.
My wife works in regulations for chemical imports and it's full of "aisic may require companies to make declaration" which means "if don't file imports you go to gaol".
Nothing in the constitution is particularly rigid. Consider how elections are described. No provisions for how they will be conducted are specified, just that you have to have them and roughly who is allowed to vote.
And yet while not as good as the multi member elections of many European countries our electoral system is pretty good.
Something I have not seen discussed anywhere.
They do not specify that this group will be elected. That mean they will be appointed. I just can't see future for this other than a punch of politicians mates from the inner city. Completely out of touch with the needs of those they represent.
I'm still leaning towards voting yes but I don't see this actually helping. It's probably just going to cost the tax payers a bunch of money and do no good.
If they were elected then they could be held to account.How people are appointed to the Voice is irrelevant to the referendum and will be legislated by the parliament
It's very relevant. We need to decide if we want to irrevocably change the country. We need more than "don't worry about it"
if we want to irrevocably change
The composition of the Voice is not irrevocable. The vote in the referendum is whether you support the notion that there is a constitutionally-mandated Voice, and not whether you approve of the specific model being proposed. Parliament can change the specific model at will, regardless of whether it is the current Labor Government or a future LNP one. The only thing that will be irrevocable is the fact that some Voice exists.
Which makes the voice completely irrelevant. When the LNP are in power the voice will be 1 spot held by some white idiot like Barnaby Joyce or Scomo. If One Nation ever got in power the voice would be some white racist saying that the indigenous people want to all be shipped off to the middle of the country and left alone in a fenced area with no contact with the rest of the country.
It doesn't matter its still a step in the right direction.
Besides its just asking to be heard and that's it, the voice doesn't have the power to make any rules or changes. So it really doesn't matter.
What does matter if it it's voted down now it will never comr back meaning one nations people will have no chance at a well legislated voice in the future.
So if your argument is no because its not set up well enough thats shit, because we need to crawl before running.
This doesn’t make your voice heard any more than any of the existing indigenous advisory boards. It just gives you one more voice to be ignored, and to be used as a political tool by the government of the time. LNP get in and make some cronie the single person in the voice who makes recommendations that harm indigenous people - how does that help you?
Your argument is basically “it’s better than nothing and will lead to more”. My argument is that it is nothing, and if it goes through it will be pointed at for decades as a way to go “look we gave them a voice, we don’t need to do any more”.
Sorry mate this is kind of absurd.
When new legislation is passed by government, yes there is (rightly) much debate between elected representatives around exactly how that legislation should work.
Once legislation is passed there is rarely much meaningful change beyond incremental improvements / adaptions.
You're suggesting that every newly elected government will just discard legislation from the previous government. If this were likely, every new government would have been doing it with every contentious issue throughout our history.
This isn't much of a thing in this country but it's not impossible. Fear radicalisation and trivial legislation. Not an argument against the voice though.
Untrue. The high court would have something to say about an aboriginal voice being composed of non Aboriginals.
And that's where I can see people having concerns. By voting Yes, you are opening the door for a model that you may not agree with. I can see people being hesitant about it, like it's a trap. But that's just my devil's advocate opinion, the fact is that this will unlikely affect anyone who isn't ingenious in a tangible way.
It's well overdue for us to genuinely celebrate our indigenous heritage and ensure our constitution allows us to embed this culture into our country's DNA.
This isn’t “celebrating” our indigenous heritage. If anything it’s doing it a disservice by having the white people go “here you go little fellas, you can have a high chair up with the adults at the big table, but just shoosh and let us decide what’s best for you”.
If anything it’s doing it a disservice by having the white people go “here you go little fellas, you can have a high chair up with the adults at the big table, but just shoosh and let us decide what’s best for you”.
Then why not ask Indigenous Australians what they think? Vote Yes if it's what they want, vote No if they don't.
(The answer, by the way, is that about 80% of Indigenous Australians are in favour.)
The actual number bounces around depending on sample size and timing, but tends to land somewhere between the 80% in an Ipsos poll of 300 First Nations people in January of this year (this poll was commissioned by 89 Degrees East, where I am research director) and the 83% in a YouGov poll of 738 First Nations people conducted this month – the largest and most representative sample I know of to date.
🤣 Sorry but those polls being used to say "80% of Indigenous Australians are in favour" is pathetic. Just over 1000 people, potentially significantly less with crossover, means you can throw that statistic in the bin.
The largest poll being only 738 people is absolutely mind boggling. Imagine using that number to extrapolate out to an entire population of a country.
Tell me you don't understand how polling works without telling me you don't understand how polling works.
Even nation-wide polls often use a sample size less than 5 times that, and I shouldn't need to tell you that the Indigenous population of Australia is less than 20%.
The polls' conductors would admittedly tell you that obtaining a representative sample of Indigenous Australians is rather difficult, but this is accounted for in their margins of error, which are less than 10%. 80% ± 10% is still a pretty overwhelming majority.
I understand how polling works, and I understand that a sample size that small doesn't extrapolate out with any certainty or accuracy to a population of ~5 million.
They can say their margin of error is 10% but it doesn't make it correct.
You cannot conclude that 80% of a 5 million population support something based on a poll of 700 people lol. Absolutely absurd.
to a population of ~5 million
It probably would, actually, since that would be roughly the same ratio of polled people to total population as the polls used to determine the views of Australia as a whole.
But the Indigenous population is actually much lower than 5 million anyway. Try just over 812,000.
It's not very complicated. You can look up the formula for how to calculate a margin of error based on your sample size, total population, desired confidence level, and the percentage of the portion that gave an answer.
z × sqrt(p × (1-p)) / sqrt((N-1) × n / (N - n)), where p is the sample proportion, n is the sample size, N is the total population size, and z is the z-score associated with your desired level of confidence. I'm using a 99% confidence interval; I was going to use 95%, but it turned out that with this sample size you can actually be a lot more confident than that and still keep quite a low margin. The z-score is 2.58. When I put in your figure of 5 million (remembering that this is actually more than 5× too large!), 700 people, and 80%, the margin of error is a measly 3.9%.Real polling is more sophisticated than that, since they account for how representative they believe their sample is of the whole population, but that's what it boils down to. They know what they're doing far better than you or I, and they're quite confident.
If you want to oppose the Voice, do so, and face whatever accusations may be levied at you because of it. But don't hide behind the lie that it's a racist policy imposed by white people on Indigenous Australians. Because the evidence is clear on that matter: Indigenous Australians support it.
The evidence is not clear. A poll of 700 people is not “the evidence is clear”.
Margins of error are not “truth”. You can decide you’ve got a margin of error of 1% and be wildly and massively incorrect in your results.
Also not sure why you’re saying I’m hiding behind a lie that it’s a racist white policy? Where did that come from?
You don't understand bro, he has "Indigenous friends". He definitely knows what he's talking about!
And he has the gall to say in one comment
it’s doing it a disservice by having the white people go “here you go little fellas, you can have a high chair up with the adults at the big table, but just shoosh and let us decide what’s best for you”.
while in another pretending he's not claiming it's
a racist policy imposed by white people on Indigenous Australians
It's quite fitting that the biggest proponent for a No vote here perfectly embodies everything wrong about that campaign. Zero facts or evidence, misinformation everywhere (5 million Indigenous Australians lel), shifting the goalposts every time debunks one of their claims and then attempting to take the moral high ground by pretending everyone is accusing them of racism (which they obviously can't be guilty of as they have "Indigenous friends" who they mention in every second comment). And now they've started co-opting Progressive No arguments because they realise those play better here, even though their initial bad faith questions two months ago were straight out of the Conservative No playbook.
Not entirely true. HC will likely set some sort of minimum standard for composition eventually, probably minimum standards for how they can provide representations if parliament decides to make it hard for them to do so.
It might do that. Or it might not. The inter-state commission is a good example of that.
If you are not an Indigenous person then the voice will not really be advising on things that are relevant to you. And the voice is fundamentally an advisory group that will present their concerns to the government. The government will then act on this advice. It will still be the government making laws and policies. It just needs to be constitutional so that it can't be terminated like previous advisory groups have been.
Considering the level of disadvantage that Indigenous Australians experience, don't you think it's reasonable that they should have greater say (a voice) on how to address the issues that are relevant to them?
The problem is that those people who will be given the voice will actively work against the needs of those they pretend to represent. Just like all politicians.
How will that help anyone?The government will then act in this advice
Or they just won’t, because nothing in this change to the constitution makes them or even says they need to even consider any advice. That’s one of the problems lots of us have with it - it changes literally nothing.
I think this is one of the most valid criticisms of the voice proposal. I agree it doesn't go far enough in ensuring that governments listen to the voice. This is a big part of why I was on the fence with my vote for a while.
Yet people call me racist and "far right" for having this concern lol.
You would rather us have bo hope then the smallest opportunity to maybe be heard
There are already plenty of indigenous advisory boards that hold no power. Why do you want another that also provides no guarantee of any power?
It may be a valid criticism but it's not a valid reason to vote No. Remember that the advisory body is only half of what is happening here, the other half is constitutional recognition. Indigenous Australians have asked for this in overwhelming numbers. By itself, that is as good a reason as any to vote Yes.
But even in the event that the advisory body is ineffective in its initial state, the beauty of this system is that it can just redesigned by the next government. It doesn't have to be perfect right out of the gate to have a positive effect.
We've already decided on that through the previous federal election. Theoretically, the voice will be legislated in a way which appeals to the majority of Australians.
Remember: bad politicians and parties only get into parliament because, we, Australians, put them there
The rich put them there. We Australians don't really have a choice. The Libs are complete garbage and Labor have abandoned their principles just to get power. They are only slightly better?
What other choice do we have?We live in a democracy, we voted for them. I think if political advertising was prohibited then we would have way more independents in parliament
so that 7 news story on the Adelaide "No" protest pretty much told me all I need to know about the No side.
conspiracy theorists, shouty people, antivax nonsense and racism. what any of that had to do with the referendum who knows
edit: sydney and melbourne too it seems. its almost as if certain types of people swing to the No side
Don't forget neo nazis who are actively supporting the no campaign. Dutton and co can try to lie and convince people that they care about making things better for Indigenous Australians all they want but there's absolutely no fucking reality where nazis give a shit about this. Not all people who vote no are racists, but all racists will vote no.
yep. and to be frank my opinion is if you take the same side as people like this, you are tarnished by their presence
One question I have, which I haven't been able to ask anyone since I'm a recluse, is "what positive societal change is made by voting no?"
Nothing. Even the Progressive No campaign has can't answer that question. The closest they got was claiming a successful Yes vote would lead to more racism in Australia because everyone would be unhappy with Indigenous Australians getting a Voice...even though they would have literally just voted Yes to it in that scenario.
People voted for Brexit and a lot of them are unhappy about it, not that I expect the same would hold true of the Voice.
Less than the active racism on the news, there's a hell of a lot of people who think righting wrongs isn't worth the small sum of cash and time that a voice will take up in the public sphere. People who think because we've been forced into a minority that we should lay down and accept being trodden on.
#ULURU STATEMENT FROM THE HEART
We, gathered at the 2017 National Constitutional Convention, coming from all points of the southern sky, make this statement from the heart:
Our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander tribes were the first sovereign Nations of the Australian continent and its adjacent islands, and possessed it under our own laws and customs. This our ancestors did, according to the reckoning of our culture, from the Creation, according to the common law from ‘time immemorial’, and according to science more than 60,000 years ago.
This sovereignty is a spiritual notion: the ancestral tie between the land, or ‘mother nature’, and the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples who were born therefrom, remain attached thereto, and must one day return thither to be united with our ancestors. This link is the basis of the ownership of the soil, or better, of sovereignty. It has never been ceded or extinguished, and co-exists with the sovereignty of the Crown.
How could it be otherwise? That peoples possessed a land for sixty millennia and this sacred link disappears from world history in merely the last two hundred years?
With substantive constitutional change and structural reform, we believe this ancient sovereignty can shine through as a fuller expression of Australia’s nationhood.
Proportionally, we are the most incarcerated people on the planet. We are not an innately criminal people. Our children are aliened from their families at unprecedented rates. This cannot be because we have no love for them. And our youth languish in detention in obscene numbers. They should be our hope for the future.
These dimensions of our crisis tell plainly the structural nature of our problem. This is the torment of our powerlessness.
We seek constitutional reforms to empower our people and take a rightful place in our own country. When we have power over our destiny our children will flourish. They will walk in two worlds and their culture will be a gift to their country.
We call for the establishment of a First Nations Voice enshrined in the Constitution. Makarrata is the culmination of our agenda: the coming together after a struggle. It captures our aspirations for a fair and truthful relationship with the people of Australia and a better future for our children based on justice and self-determination.
We seek a Makarrata Commission to supervise a process of agreement-making between governments and First Nations and truth-telling about our history.
In 1967 we were counted, in 2017 we seek to be heard. We leave base camp and start our trek across this vast country. We invite you to walk with us in a movement of the Australian people for a better future.
As pointed out in the link by spiffmeister, that's concocted misinformation.
More so though, even if one wasn't able to accept that those points were false or misinformation, those points aren't being added to the constitution by this vote.
The wording is very clear. Nothing will be added to the constitution that relate to any of the points you raised.
Your response would be like Australians in 1900 refusing to ratify the proposed constitution because they objected to the line in section 24 that the House of Representatives be "directly chosen by the people of the Commonwealth", since one day, one of those "directly chosen" people might make outlandish, farfetched, or incendiary suggestions during their time in the House of Representatives.
Or a local council refusing to allow a bakery to open in its township, because of the possibility that one day, a baker from that store might bake bad bread. Even if that bread was never sold, and never affected anyone, the mere possibility that bread might come out the oven bad within the next 20 years, is enough to convince the council they should never allow a bakery to open.
This may answer that question:
https://www.rmit.edu.au/news/factlab-meta/secret-list-of-voice-plans-a-concoction
Where did you see them? The Uluru statement from the heart is the 1-page conclusion of meeting in 2017
This comment made claims about the Uluru Statement from the Heart which are proven to be misinformation and have no relation to the Voice to Parliament. Source
For what it's worth, a lot of my neighbours have a vote yes sign on their doors. It makes me feel like we'll get the yes to change the constitution. That'd be awesome. I'm hanging onto hope.
I think it's going to be close just because of how powerful the no campaign has been spreading their bullshit
I'll be voting yes as it's the least we can do, foot in the door and all.
That said, it's literally the least we could do. Very much a 'yes, and' rather than think racism's solved with this one voteFuck I've already got this song stuck in my head and it's going to be stuck in there for months.
The idea that the voice is some sort of useless idea is seriously flawed. Policy institutes and Parliamentary hearing and committee are the biggest drivers of policy in this country. Media attention and petitions aren't nearly as effective in this regard. The voice will likely not be integrated as a Parliamentary comittee is, due to its being a separate body, but will still offer valuable representation to Parliament to those who came before these institutions and this country. Aboriginals had their own traditions, nations and sovereignty on land that was not ceded. We have accepted their legal and unique history with this land, this is merely saying that within the framework of Australia as a country, that Aboriginals deserve access to our legislature and executive on matters that affect them.
The popular argument by resident no voter @whirlybird@aussie.zone seems to be that this is virtue signalling and that this would be the end of social justice for Aboriginals, that resistance would develop in trying to advance a cause further. They seem to suggest that we would be better off doing something of substance, as to not foment resistance and resentment. I would hope that on the first point, its been made clear that there is real benefit to having a Voice, and the second is irrelevant, the Australian population will tire after a no vote, and after a yes vote. Its the jobs of those politically active, the media, the Voice itself, politicians, and those non apathetic people to push for more when the time comes.
A second argument I hear, and the most factually true argument I hear is lack of detail. It is true that there is a lack of official detail from those legislators who will be advancing bills if the referendum finishes in the affirmative. It is also understandable to want to know in substance what the fruits of your vote would be. Id encourage those who would like to learn to listen to ideas from the referendum working group and those associated with the yes campaign on rough ideas of a Voice if this is the case. Its important to remember that we are voting on the amendment though, not the bill itself. There are significant measures that must go into establishing the voice in substance:
- Will the voice exist entirely under its own weight, legislated by Parliament and run by itself, or will the bureaucratic arm of the voice exist in the Australian Public Service
- How will the voice be elected? How will regional voices be represented? Is a federal model (each nation receives x representatives), a state based model (each state receives x amount of reps) or a unitary, population based model more effective?
All of these questions take significant time. If you can focus on the amendment, and whether support those ideas outside of what a future voice may look like, it will help.
