You dunk on Lindsey whateverhernameis for tweeting bad things about leftists fomenting violent insurrection, but hopeful Balkanization and US collapse posts are downbeared. Are you just larping? Either the bourgeois state can be ended without violence or it cannot. I'm not here for enlightened centrism, folks.
leftists doing a violent insurrection is good, lindsey whomever can fuck off.
balkanization and collapse of the u.s is also good, from a global perspective at the very least, but will obviously suck for people in the u.s as there is no leftist vanguard to take power, so it will all end in water barons that probably keep bombing the middle east anyways.
its not really all that contradictory or "centrist" tbh, so idk what you want. :meow-coffee:
edit: to be clear, im all for u.s collapse. :amerikkka:
today on chapo.chat a poster discovers there are many different kinds of leftists here, we disagree with each other over pretty much everything, and will have struggle sessions over the tiniest things
I'm a left unity chauvinist so I don't think the left has ever disagreed.
but hopeful Balkanization and US collapse posts are downbeared
It's acceleration, sure, but so is voting for Trump and that's something I wouldn't do. Balkanisation and civil war won't just be an ideological question. We have 3800 active nuclear weapons in a country full of religious zealots, Nazis, and megacorporations. The rest of the military hardware risks being a repeat of when we left everything in Iraq and then found ISIS driving our vehicles. The left doesn't stand to gain from wanton free-for-all violence and if war broke out today the main factions would be military, militias, and political parties. Where we stand to gain is in building up parallel structures to replace the empire's role in peoples' lives as it fails them. We're the ones who really analyse and understand conditions so there is a lot of potential power in anticipating things becoming worse and having some sort of constructive alternative. Proactively encouraging or reveling in the violence, which will probably happen without us all the same, only sets you up to take a bullet for Joe Biden so that he can turn around and shoot you again in the leg. Fuck no I don't want to fight in a civil war for that or defend the border from Kansas because they want water.
You're right. I wish I were a true socialist like you. Go out and set the example by being shot in the stomach to defend a Walmart from Mormons because your county drafted you into a militia, but of course the people you're being shot for don't think you deserve treatment for that bullet without a six figure debt you'll be working off with a colostomy bag. Maybe you'll be one of the drone videos in /r/combatfootage as those drones fall into the hands of the federalists, the military factions, or the paramilitary militias they will hand their weapons to. They certainly won't be handing them out to socialists and whatever your armament- I've got more or less the standard civilian kit minus body armour so those countless weapons and vehicles the paramilitary forces will have would be an upgrade- you'll be facing the most powerful military in history and a population that's North Korea for white people. All for the supremacy of a party that hates you, exactly as the ML party of Syria fell in with the regime to ensure their political minority survival. They're not going to be adding a hammer and sickle to the flag when the dust settles and if collective desperation turned people into MLs then the entire population of Syria would have been forming a greater Rojava. They aren't though. They're split between those who flee, those who try to survive, those who were conscripted by any of the reactionary or local militias, and whose who bomb all of them. Maybe I'm not a principled socialist like you but my lib ass doesn't consider any of those things a path to socialism.
north korea for white people.
ah yes, well known settler colonial slave state in control of a global empire which regularly bombs much smaller countries to the point they have no multi-floor structures standing and their population has been reduced by one fifth checks notes north korea
🙄
Not the good part of North Korea, the part that worships a strongman and would fanatically die to protect their nationalist ideology. Then again they only put a portrait of Kim in their house so maybe they'd find something like a Trump Train to be an insane degree of zealotry.
literally every country has an unhealthy worship of their political leaders.
go ask a brit about churchill.
the korean love of the kim family is def a hell of a lot better, given the reason for it, than the trump fans loving a president who has caused the unecessary deaths of some quarter million citizens. its like comparing a love of gandhi (problematic) to a love of churchill (wtf)
Sure, uphold Marxism-Monarchism or whatever. That's not what I'm talking about though. I don't know how much KCNA you watch and read on a weekly basis but I generally catch about 3-4 episodes a week for b-roll in my dog's videos and keep current with Rodong Sinmun and Choson Sinbo for the wording of the articles. What I'm describing is the cultural manifestation of that worship. Britons might be Churchill apologists, largely because we're stupid and have the same quality of history education that Americans have, but that doesn't become a reinforcing ideology around the Churchill dynasty or Conservatism-Churchillianism or the tonality of a video in which a Conservative PM visits a farm and everybody cums or a construction project at night randomly has a Conservative Party band playing music about Churchill. That's a very specific Spectacle and an aesthetic that's in a specific state of cultural revolution western politicians don't have.
So you're saying that the British equivalent of a Trump supporter, the cultural equivalent in the sense that Great Britain was sort of like if the confederacy won and controlled the world for centuries, also has the same general aesthetic preferences? The kind which might represent worshipping some sort of strongman and die to protect their nationalist ideology? The kind that drapes themselves in flags in a way that North Koreans would probably find to be an insane degree of zealotry as you've correctly observed?
let me refer you to my previous statement:
literally every country has an unhealthy worship of their political leaders.
idk what you find so difficult to understand about the fact that you had a bad take that isnt an inherently wrong idea about zealotry being bad but was very very poorly presented.
If I'm comparing one of those to another one of those and I choose not to use the British monarchy as an example because I'm guessing socialists are more familiar with North Korea's cultural aesthetic toward its leadership than British monarchists, I'm not saying you're wrong so much as I am that it's an unnecessary criticism. Yeah it's the Modi or the Mao of white people. I don't know what Indian nationalism looks like beyond the occasional picture and Maoist China is the same specific kind of cultural aesthetic but not one you can currently watch. North Korea is one that even the general public knows the aesthetic of.
trump: commiting genocide on the basis of ethnicity.
modi: commiting genocide on the basis of ethnicity.
dprk and china: ????
do you see how these things are not the same?
Am I comparing the culture and imagery of two groups or am I comparing the actions and ethics of them? You yourself used the British monarchy as an example of the same imagery and culture of strongman worship so you're now starting some different debate I didn't say a thing about.
and how often has britain commited genocide on the basis of ethnicity?
what are you not getting here?
Am I comparing the culture and imagery of two groups or am I comparing the actions and ethics of them?
north korea of white people
of white people
the "of white people" pretty obviously brings to mind the way in which trump supporters are proponents of an ethnostate and are currently actively commiting genocide on the basis of ethnicity. again, what are you not getting here?
That's saying that if you look at any Trump rally or train or truck with a bunch of bumper stickers they're white. That's not bringing fascist actions into it or drawing some ethical equivalency between the groups. Sure you can point to the British monarchists or the Canadian Trudeau liberals or the Obama/Clinton/Harris supporters, but the imagery and focuses of that imagery aren't to the same degree .
Shattering the American empire is a good thing, you're just a coward.
You have the same lame worldview as Chomsky at this point.
edit: To be more clear, the nukes are terrifying but all you're arguing for is keeping them locked up behind 1 absurdly powerful office that's being occupied by increasing awful right wing assholes. An office that keeps getting more power centered on it because congress is packed with people who hate the idea of actually doing the job.
Not the good part of North Korea
And you have the reading comprehension of a libertarian.
I think you quoted the wrong thing, so I really don't know how to respond to that.
I quoted my own top-level reply to the person criticising what they think my take on North Korea is. The first sentence of it. The good part of it is what it represents internationally, a challenge to US hegemony, and the part I'm comparing to the culture of Trump followers is the cultural presentation of their attachment to the Kim dynasty and the imagery focus on their nationalist ideology. That's not even saying their nationalism is bad, Fanon represented Algerian nationalism as Malcolm X did black nationalism.
Because you're making the same assertion and it's easier to respond to it if I just quote the first sentence of what you replied to.
No I called you a coward, they called out your parroting propaganda against North Korea.
tbf, the first sentence of what you replied to was "youre right" so... it def wouldve been easier if hed just quoted that
You called me a coward when you didn't read that sentence. If you went a whole comment or two below that's not parroting American propaganda, that's watching a lot of KCNA and making cultural comparisons between two culturally comparable groups. Even the principles of Juche could be summed up as "North Korea First" which is a language thing reflecting similar broad goals of building a national project that can survive external enemies. There's no criticism of North Korea in that and if Trump supporters aren't the most extreme contemporary example of western fascist imagery as the North Koreans are socialist imagery then I'm excited to learn who trumps Trump.
like if we went on this argument wouldn't the hopeful balkanization post and us collapse be larping like i don't know i personally find them dumb because they are mostly american left wish fullfilment dream in which you guys get the revolution without having to do work but i don't know like it maybe is because there are different people with diferent point of views on this i guess
like yeah then do something about it, right? i also don't believe we can do that while it exists but i find that if we just let this argument play out talking about balkanization without doing shit is as much of a larp right
why does this conversation irritate you so much that you tell people they are wrong for discussing it?
like it is not that i dislike it is just i really don't understand how the argument works why when they complain online about dumb youtuber it is larping but saying this is not like i don't think it is larping either way because this is a website i really just don't understand the argument being made because if we are going to consider that a larp it is the same thing right? you are not doing shit and posting still
you are not doing shit and posting still
what are we doing right now?
i am not complaining about posting as i said this is a website we come here to do this i am saying that i don't understand how under this logic the breadtube shit is not as much of a larp being done here than this thing is my point i literally said i personally do not think either are a larp i just don't agree with the premisse
I don't understand how...
If you want this resolved, you will have to understand that this may never change since the thing you don't understand is related to the way another person thinks. It's ok to not know things. What helps me in these cases is to find books and information on the thing making me aggravated. Tends to smooth things over and I don't feel so flustered when I talk about it.
like i am explaining because you are asking i am not in search for tips but thanks anyway
I am not actually interested in the topic at all, just trying to work out why it causes you grief since it's not going to change.
like i have social anxiety so the grief is more of mix my frustration when i failed to understand what people mean and me being a nerd and thinking that the internal logic of the argument has a failing like i feel might be seeming more angry than i am but i just really failed to understand to understand how the argument works and my reaction to that is generally to explain what i think the problem is so they can at least understand where i am coming from
:heart-sickle: I don't think you're mad and I am sorry if I added to the grief.
I mean global communism being by definition stateless so...
Chapo has equal parts Liberal Larpers and people on the ground doing praxis. We all want to believe we're the latter but most of us are the former. I'm not afraid to admit it.
However, the shit with lindsay ellis is just annoying chapo left gate keeping. Yeah she's not making videos about the marxist analysis of the anastasia animated movie but she's also not terrible. She's just friends with folks like Hbomberguy so they get lumped in together.
Sure as shit a lot better than the rest of youtube.
It would be really funny to watch from afar, but obviously most cool people will be killed or live unthinkable horrors and their dreams completely destroyed because obviously the bad guys are gonna win. So no, let's think alternatives.
Also, nuclear wars, or any war, aren't eco friendly; and plus we really need some strong states to push for deep energy reforms and/or anything needed to try to delay/survive the incoming climate apocalypse. Sadly the US state is a death cult for the MoneyLine God, and when it finally start caring about the climate, it will be turbo eco-fascism 100% sure
Its all about the sauce comarade, high power levels are for IRL assemblys.
as an obviously trans person idk I'd prefer not to die in Civil War 2, so I guess that makes me a lib.
You're a fucking moron at best if you're "hopeful" for war imo. Not saying I disagree that violence is inevitable; it's clearly evident that there are plenty of people willing to kill and die to cling to this empire for even a minute longer and that electoralism offers palliative care at its best (it is almost never at its best). But war's not going to be fun and we aren't going to feel noble when we're in it. I understand joking and shit as coping, but I hope y'all personally view the topic with the stoicism it deserves at least.
Maybe too mask-off but tbh my hope isn't so much for full-on collapse as it is for some number of leftists to finally start assassinating political figures and business leaders. The bourgeois state cannot be ended without violence, but said violence can attempt to be targeted.
