Fuckin losers just tryna tell other people how to process the existential ennui of this meaningless existence. If you find that with some new-age pagan shit than comrade its all good, when we cut off bezos's head i'll help you make a pentagram out of the blood or something idk what you do.
Individual people with individual spiritual beliefs are compatible with socialism.
Organized religion such as it exists on this planet is not compatible with socialism.
I feel like there have been a lot of revolutionary organized religious movements.
Religion is basically good when it's not bad.
Shit my paganism was a big part of why I became extremely anti capitalist. Protection of the natural world is the core tenet of my religion and nothing has done more to harm then environment then the unmitigated pursuit of wealth.
People into paganism come in two flavours: harmless hippies and Obersturmbannführer von Böse, lvl 88 Aryan Runesorcerer
There's a lot more of us then that, those are just the two groups that are the loudest. Most of the rest of us tend to keep our mouths shut because we know as soon as we admit to being pagan all our views on every topic become invalid cause we're stupid enough to believe in spirits/magic/pantheons.
Yes, and of those two, guess who rules the roost and subjugates the other to a lifelong servitude at the altar of pacifism and funding?
I think Nazi's pretend to be pagan is more a European thing then an American. IRL I've only met one fuck bag who was like that and pretty much as soon as the first racist thing left his mouth the entire group told him to fuck off and never come back.
How is paganism related to protection of the natural world? Can you recommend reading material?
My internet is shit right now, but if you give me a day I'll send you some links.
I know usually paganism is usually meant to refer to non-abrahamic religions from Europe but from my understanding lots of indigenous culture is intimately tied to the land and peoples responsibility to protect it.
Just a heads up to people looking toward the future; you might want some opium.
(edit: comment we replied to said something like "opium was just a painkiller, people in Marx time saw opium as good actually")
haha opium war doesn't real
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1858/09/20.htm
Karl Marx quoting Montgomery Martin:
"Why, the 'slave trade' was merciful compared with the 'opium trade'. We did not destroy the bodies of the Africans, for it was our immediate interest to keep them alive; we did not debase their natures, corrupt their minds, nor destroy their souls. But the opium seller slays the body after he has corrupted, degraded and annihilated the moral being of unhappy sinners, while, every hour is bringing new victims to a Moloch which knows no satiety, and where the English murderer and Chinese suicide vie with each other in offerings at his shrine."
Karl Marx now:
the Chinese Emperor, in order to check the suicide of his people, prohibited at once the import of the poison by the foreigner, and its consumption by the natives,
This is exactly how Marx feels about religion when he writes that passage about the opium of the people.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1843/critique-hpr/intro.htm
Here bold emphasis is mine, and again quoting Karl Marx:
Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.
Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower. The criticism of religion disillusions man, so that he will think, act, and fashion his reality like a man who has discarded his illusions and regained his senses, so that he will move around himself as his own true Sun. Religion is only the illusory Sun which revolves around man as long as he does not revolve around himself.
That living flower could, among other things, include spirituality and ritual, if those are defined in sensible materialist terms.
Karl Marx draws clear distinction between illusions (bad, opium, poison) and fantasy or consolations (good, living flower).Earlier from that same text; where '—' is my own insertion to clarify grammatical parsing:
The profane existence of error is compromised as soon as its heavenly oratio pro aris et focis has been refuted. Man, who has found only the reflection of himself in the fantastic reality of heaven, where he sought a superman, will no longer feel disposed to find the mere appearance of himself, the non-man, where he seeks — and must seek his true reality.
The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again.
That is to say, the illusory Sun that revolves around religious people is the reflection, or mere appearance of themselves.
Marx certainly appreciated this basic egoistic nature of religion; that it allows people believe whatever they want, and imagine their own will, as the will of God.All religion, much like liberalism, is at its core a moral nihilism.
It is the claim I, having the true belief, deciding it, am the arbiter of morality; thus there is no morality external to myself.
How many times have you heard a religious person say: without religion or God then why not murder people or whatever?But the opium seller slays the body after he has corrupted, degraded and annihilated the moral being of unhappy sinners,
When man will move around himself as his own true Sun this does not imply egoism, it means assuming control of your own fantasy and consolation.
Again:The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.
You're gonna need a fucking embryo if you want to criticize that vale of tears.
Finally, from the first line of that essay:the criticism of religion is the prerequisite of all criticism.
Stop cherry-picking Marx, this is not a religion, you do not get to do that anymore.
You have to face reality. Marx is not your God, he does not share your debased opinions about morality.Why, the 'slave trade' was merciful compared with the 'opium trade'.
Religion is evil.
— and must seek his true reality.
It is not your own personal reality, it is your reality.
The reality of you as a physical being. That is what Marx says people must seek.:vegan-edge:
I mean being an oppressed creature in a heartless world under soulless condition doesn't sound exactly ideal and those are the conditions under which religion currently exists. Marx indeed is sympathetic to religious people but is less charitable to religion itself
The term "religion" is too broad. Some religious beliefs are compatible with socialism and some aren't. It really depends on the specific beliefs.
Or Roman Catholicism for that matter. While some idealistic Jesuist idea of Catholicism might square well with socialism, the Vatican driven corporate religion has to go.
if the Pope doesnt believe in Liberation theology then i dont care what he says, i say this as someone raised catholic
Your spiritualism is your own business and does not say anything about your worth as a person or as a comrade. Do what you need to in order to find a bit of joy in your life. If you're appropriating cultural practices that belonged to oppressed people, that's pretty gross, but I'm pretty sure there's a special organic brand of white girl wiccan that was birthed from the cosmos or whatever and wasn't stolen.
On a personal level, I am still absolutely going to think you're a huge weirdo and laugh at your goat sacrifices and crystals and whatever. But I'm just a disembodied voice on the internet, who cares what I think.
can't remember where i read it atm, but from what i understand practices veer into cultural appropriation if you profit off of them and may be considered cultural appreciation if you engage respectfully. that also depends on the group and practice. when in doubt ask someone of that group.
:this:
cultural appropriation is well into the realm of profiteering
in example, elvis was cultural appropriation. he directly stole music from black people and passed it off as his own to massive profit.
you listening to, enjoying, and even adapting music produced by black people is not cultural appropriation, its cultural appreciation.
want to mash some sick beatboxing up against a violin concerto or whatever? go for it. just dont lift the track directly from someone elses relatively unknown work, claim it as your own, and make a fucking mint off it, or thats appropriation, and you will be so cancelled
instead, maybe contact that person whose beatboxing you like, and see about collaborating with them on your project. thats appreciation.
the salient point is "are you removing money from the hands of a minority community, or are you joining them in enjoyment of an art"
thank you this has been my theodore talk
That doesn't sound right but I don't know enough about marxism to dispute it.
Orthodox marxist states (USSR, CCP) had state atheism, but marxist theory is ultimately a material theory. It does not include the spiritual, which can either be interpreted to mean that there is no permissible spirituality within the marxist worldview, or that nearly any spirituality is compatible so long as it follows the material beliefs of marxism. This can be seen in South America with liberation theology.
Christian socialism has been around forever, even older than the USSR.
“A Plea for Unity of American Socialists,” by George Herron. [Nov. 1900] The stenographic report of a speech delivered by Christian Socialist stalwart George Herron to a mass meeting of Chicago Socialists on Nov. 18, 1900. Herron states that only disunity and factional strife could derail the socialist movement from ultimate victory (“for a generation or a century”) and arguing that a united movement could make use of the quasi-religious sensibilities of the educated segment of society in a mass movement for human liberation. An excellent exposition of SPA ideology from the university professor who co-founded the Rand School of Social Science.
From the Marxist internet archive
Edit:
American political campaigns have long been a sort of Punch and Judy show; and it has been all one to the working man, whether he was looking at Re-publican Punch or Democratic Judy. The strings of both parties were in the capitalists’ hands. As evidence of this, you will only need to read the recent editorial of representative Republican newspapers, expressing most anxious solicitude as to the reorganization and purity of the Democratic Party, with wise propositions as to its necessity for the development and protection of our institutions.
Damn, could have been written today
I feel like that is a problem that relates more to capitalist influence on medicine right? Because its not like some people just decide one day that crystals are better for their health or something, there's an enormous "wellness" business that profits off of ignorance and misinformation that it deliberately spreads. There's a good Netflix documentary called "Unwell" that I think does a good breakdown. I think the problem is especially bad in the imperial core because there is PLENTY of legitimate reason to not trust the medical establishment, which again is not a problem of spirituality or even of alternative medicine I think, but of capitalist fuckery.
testing out new concept known as "negative affirmation" where I simultaneously validate and condemn for practicing witchcraft
Believe whatever helps, just try to be a good person and help others. Simple as that.
was just reading about Simone Weil... girl was a lil loopy, but spirituality does require recognition of a non-quantifiable transcendent in others & I think this is also what anti-capitalism requires
Hell yeah, completely agree. I, like, many losers before and after me, fell into that anti-theism, quasi-IDPol bullshit and it didn't stop at just the spiritual non organized religion shit. I grew up thinking religion is dumb af, still do in many ways (Catholic Church anyone?) But I have absolutely 0 place to critique what others find inside of them to be what's right or what can guide them.
I also did a lot of different psychedelics which has shaped a lot of my views on the world and the spiritual. I've always called myself agnostic but as time goes on, my uncertainty grows bigger but I have this primal feeling of wanting more. It's really fucking weird, I think a lot of has to do with how sick and sad this world is and wondering if there truly is no retribution for what the ghouls have done for all of time. But then I can watch like a documentary about mycelium and think how absolutely insane it is and has to be intelligent design. IDK what to think, but I do know there is a compartment in our brains that handles the spiritual, and not to get all sciencey bro on you all, those types of things keep me firmly planted in the "I don't fucking know" category, but I don't truly have the desire to join any type of group or congregation.
I kinda feel the same way, I just try to learn about as many different types of worship and spirituality as I can because I think its fascinating. Plus there are lessons to be learned everywhere so why not? Psychedelics definitely help as well lol.
