Good post comrade.
I wonder a lot about Bernie's motives when it came to this. He definitely can't plead ignorance because there were people telling him not to at the time, including presumably the advisor that resigned. I want to believe he wasn't being intentionally imperialist, and this was more of a path to hell is paved with good intentions situation, but I acknowledge that might be parasocial influence. I'll definitely never defend him for this after having learned the full details.
Bernie is a trade unionist. Bernie represents an area with union workers building military hardware. I think it's literally that simple. The bill probably had extra funding for his district's war machine and he took the deal. This is the problem with trade unionists not having a cohesive political ideology beyond "fuck you, pay me".
I've never heard the KLA being compared to Nazis, that's bullshit I've never even heard from the most nationalistic Serbs. Not saying war crimes haven't been committed by the KLA, but their ideology and their actions in general have nothing to do at all with Nazis, Idk what in the fuck you've been reading.
You just can't really disagree with this take.
What people seem to be arguing about in the thread is more a strategic position of whether or not you should "support" him. But I don't think it's all that complicated.
Bernie's the first person in the electoral sphere to symbolically lead a left-wing coalition in decades. He's a social democrat that helped drag thousands of Americans to the left. He hasn't proposed socialism, so if you're a socialist he wouldn't be your ideological north star. I supported him electorally, I'm happy I canvassed for him. Parenti is right, and I would have loved if Bernie took up foreign policy more heavily, but it's obvious that someone with Parenti's views wouldn't have been able to come nearly as close as he did to the presidency.
Gloria La Riva on the day Bernie ended his campaign says it better than I do: "Even though we in the PSL are running our own campaign, and although we are opponents of the democratic party, which is 100% pro-capitalist and pro-imperialist, we took the position of critical support for Bernie Sanders because we are in solidarity with the millions of people who were building a movement who supported his campaign and demanding far-reaching social change. We didn't see eye to eye on some issues, especially international, but his far-reaching domestic program is desperately needed."
If your argument is "we should have supported a stronger anti-imperialist against Bernie" then I disagree, because we miraculously had a social democrat within some striking distance of the nomination. If your argument is "Bernie would have been the ideal person to lead the country" then I disagree too, because I'm a stronger anti-imperialist, and I'm not a social democrat. As for this post, critique of Bernie is good and useful for the movement, especially after he lost.
I think I just wrote the most centrist American left unity take possible, which IMO is all we can aspire to at this moment. Also obligatory electoralism is not everything.
It's kind of amazing how there are dozens of serious left-wing critiques (like this!) of people like Bernie and AOC and yet 80% of the dunks on them here are "he sold out to Biden" nonsense or the #ForceTheVote grift.
Milosevic was a fascist pig, but the US and NATO supported: Croatian Nazis, KLA organ smugglers, Bosnian Fascists and helped create a vacuum for Islamists and ethno-nationalists
fuck anybody who supports NATO bombing of Serbian/Yugoslavia
uh oh, the one man who single handily jumpstarted a somewhat comprehensive left wing movement in American that got regular liberals and even some conservatives to unite against big
capitalistcooperate interests made a single tiny whoopies daisy vote in the 90s, I guess it's time to drop this old geezer for what is, a counter revolutionary. I am very good at being a leftist.Edit: oh no, the one time I voiced a somewhat vaguely political opinion and now I've pissed off everyone.
I'm not defending Bernie, and my "whoopsie daisy" statement shouldn't be taken literally, of course it's bad, why he didn't have the foresight to vote nay is beyond me; but my main grievences lie in how the American leftists want to dump Bernie hard post election, which I find quite odd considering that I'd imagine that the vast majority of leftists on this forum are "Bernie Bros".
Like, don't chastise me for slighty undermining one bad Bernie vote for the sake of broader leftism in the America, but he's the best we got. America had 8 fucking years of Bush and the best thing we got out of that was Obama. I didn't see leftism make any progress during that time period. So this is the best we got right now, Democratic Socialism. I know it isn't the exactly the most fun prospects or ideologically stringent movement in America, but it clears that regular Americans sympathize way more with the mild succdem politics of AOC and Bernie before relatively basic socialist ideas.
To sum up my argument, yes Bernie is not excused of all criticism, but to think that Bernie should be dumped in favor of some ideological purity that most Americans could care less about in the long run is just backwards, especially considering all the leftist projects Bernie helped ignite in the last 5 years alone, more projects that achieved more than the PSL or CPUSA (lol)
-7DeadlyFetishes
tiny whoopies daisy vote in the 90s
Whoops, I just accidentally did an imperialism
Whoops, I just accidentally supported war criminals
Oopsie haha hope there aren't any devastating consequences, just a tiny little mistake
Western leftist moment
Being a leftist is when you refuse to hold your favorite politician accountable for his previous actions instead of coming to terms with the fact that he isn't the epic socialist grandpa you wanted him to be. He's a social democrat who is capable of having shitty takes and supporting shitty things. He's not immune to criticism because he also does good things. I can commend him for the good things he's done and put him on blast when he deserves it.
Edit: I'm not dumping bernie completely, I'm just not gonna make excuses for him when he fucks up. Early 20th century unions did very cool shit but they were also incredibly racist, but I don't think anyone here is gonna complain about "purity testing" if I point that out.
To quote Mao:
To let things slide for the sake of peace and friendship when a person has clearly gone wrong, and refrain from principled argument because he is an old acquaintance, a fellow townsman, a schoolmate, a close friend, a loved one, an old colleague or old subordinate. Or to touch on the matter lightly instead of going into it thoroughly, so as to keep on good terms. The result is that both the organization and the individual are harmed. This is one type of liberalism.
I edited my previous comment, take a look.
-7DeadlyFetishes
oh no he voted on a bill that would have passed without his vote, guess the sole reason m4a is popular in America and a lifetime spent advocating for workers is cancelled sweaty
Supporting imperialism is ok when your vote doesn't decide the issue.
the sole reason m4a is popular
great man theory time let's go
How dare I criticize bernie for his vote. How dare I point out that he supported intervention in Yugoslavia. Truly cancel culture has gone too far.
Screaming "CANCEL CULTURE" when we're criticizing a politican for voting to bomb civilians pretty much epitomizes the statement "cut a liberal and a fascist bleeds".
You can support Bernie when he does good things without reactively defending him on the shitty things he's done.
yep im fash for thinking that criticizing a house vote from 22 years ago that would have changed nothing either way he voted isn’t productive and worthwhile. Literally no leftist that isn’t a succ dem thinks American Imperialism is good.
TIL voting for bombing civilians is ok as long as you didn't cast the tie-breaking vote.
how the fuck is this productive you are literally just being a fucking dick head for no reason leave me alone
Go post your imperialism apologia over on r/socialdemocracy
Edit: Whew, looks like I ruffled a few feathers. I guess being a dick is when I point out your flawed justification. I don't care if it happened a century ago, or how much his vote actually influenced the outcome, what matters is he expressed support for American intervention in Yugoslavia, something that is indefensible. You explicitly acknowledged that you believed it was acceptable to vote for the aforementioned intervention because his vote didn't turn the tables. This is what is known as an excuse. Is it so hard to acknowledge that Bernie fucked up? Imagine if I tried to handwave away Biden's support for segregation by saying it happened a long time ago and also he didn't manage to save it so what does it matter anyway.
your argument is dumb because your assuming people are voting yes on bills they disagree with because “they are going to pass anyway”
im not saying that lol
because it literally doesn’t matter that Bernie voted yes on it, wow a politician had the wrong opinion 22 years ago on a bill that had bipartisan support and was probably given false justification/information by the intelligence community anyway. If he then supported the Iraq war sure but bringing up shit that literally doesn’t matter in a country that doesn’t exist anymore is stupid and counter productive. no leftist thinks American imperialism is good
I'd like this guy to go to the Balkans and tell everyone there how irrelevant the whole Yugoslavia thing was
there is no negative impact on bernie if a meme criting him from the left gets upvoted on chapo.chat
Agree with this take, I wrote more elsewhere in the thread. Critique of him is good, especially post-election. This website is coalition of shitposters from various left tendencies, even including some social democrats, that's all we have right now. I'm like 7DeadlyFetishes in that I still support him, but to do so uncritically just means you're a social democrat who's okay with disgusting imperialism.
I strongly believe you can think Bernie is mostly a good thing without mitigating this. It was more than a small oopsie. Hell, Bernie isn't going to run for president again, there's really no point in trying to defend his legacy (or whatever) now. I don't think it would hurt the movement he created on the whole at this point.
I've been here for a while now I just pop in and out every now and then lol.
-7DeadlyFetishes
"Paychecks of union military workers in my home district are more important that the lives of people elsewhere" - Bernie probably
Wow this thread shows how many libs who just want M4A are masquerading as revolutionaries here.
this thread was a great learning experience for many libs i hope
Good faith question here: What is the "correct" take on what went on in the Balkans in the 90s?
There is no 'correct' take on the Balkans, or China, or the SU, or the LTV. There's just the notes we have left known as history and how you feel about them. All I know is that the USA should not have been involved.
oh no he voted on a bill that would have passed without his vote, guess the sole reason m4a is popular in America and a lifetime spent advocating for workers is cancelled sweaty
what the fuck is the infantile obsession with putting people in a categorically “good or bad” box. Literally every leftist leader has done shitty things, voting on bills is pretty mild compared to the others, yet we still understand that they were a “greater good”
Goatse? In this day and age? I thought I was old and behind the times...
