If you thought you were a true ally, maybe it's time for some introspection.
I don't think the tweet is discussing the social morality of transpeople genitals, but I really don't know what DO is the social morality of genitals
if they’re frustrated or discouraged and they don’t phrase those things in the most comfortable way for the group hurting them to read, it’s theyre fault.
If it gets as adversarial as "you're at fault here," yeah, that's a shitty way of approaching comments like this. People should never be blamed for talking about their struggles. But an approach of "I think this would communicate the exact same point in a way that will get more people on our side, so we can address those struggles" seems pretty useful, as getting a bunch more people on our side is necessary to make the biggest improvements in the lives of trans people.
If it's "let's not talk about it because reasons," that's definitely bullshit. James Baldwin nailed this point 40 years ago with his "How much time do you want for your progress?" remarks. We should not be sidelining the interests of our trans comrades, especially when just speaking about the issue can help create a less bigoted environment.
But if it's "let's talk about it, and here's how I think we can talk about it such that we achieve meaningful results as soon as possible?" That sounds like a conversation sincerely interested in moving things in the right direction.
Genuine question - can both be true? Can someone be a transphobe for not wanting to date someone but still an ally? Or more specifically sleep with someone?
Edit: I’ll leave my question as is, but my intention was to ask about sex, not about dating as in being seen on the street with someone or exploring an emotional relationship
Totally agree. I rephrased the dialogue a bit in a comment above to refocus more on the sexual aspect. I didn’t mean to phrase it as terf Puritanism about who a “woman” is but it could be taken that way in the context of dating.
Can you be transphobic and be an ally?
I know the answer you’re aiming for is “no” but...
If someone has some problematic ideas, but when push comes to shove, they will stand between a trans comrade and a barrage of police impact munitions, are they not an ally?
This isn’t a just some far off hypothetical, either it’s a real situation that I witnessed first hand in Portland multiple times. It’s a big part of why I get so upset by these struggle sessions, because they remind me of some of the fights that ripped that movement apart.
Yeah I think you’re understanding the angle right.. Maybe normalizing discourse around the sexual aspects is needed to mitigate some of the issues (frankly, this is an issue within the LGBT community, let alone a broader population) this phenomenon.
also tbf dating a dude that feels iffy on your genitals isnt gonna be fun from the get go, find a nice comrade and settle down like i did
and some shithead walks up and says “if you don’t want to have drop you pants and have sex with a trans woman right now you are not a comrade you are a sexist transphobic piece of shit.”
Cis people will see a bunch of trans people call out society's transphobia on Chapo dot chat and compare it to rape
That's what cis people think when you tell them that the statement "I wouldn't date a trans person" is transphobic. It's this victim mentality, this fear that makes them transphobic. They just think trans women are predators
CW: transphobic violence
When people get killed for disclosing and people get killed for not disclosing what the fuck are you supposed to do, dating is hard enough as it is imagine your life is literally on the line when you hook up or start seeing someone romantically.
I remember in 2013ish tumblr culture it was like, social justice dogma that genital preferences were transphobic, without much room for nuance. And I bought into it, hard, and never had it challenged for years. Then I got into discord servers with a lot of trans people and started noticing that many trans people themselves have genital preferences. Especially common seemed to trans women who strongly preferred dicks, and further in particular transbians who were only interested in dating other trans women. I don't want to go off listing examples because there are a ton of different people with a ton of different aspects to the minutiae of their attraction, but yeah meeting trans people with genital preferences, some stricter than others, made me realize that policing genital preference isn't actually good. Actually my initial reaction when I first started meeting like, transbians who only want to date transwomen who haven't had bottom surgery was to say "isn't that bad because it reinforces the transphobic idea that there's a difference?" But after a while of discussing it and self-examining I realized how problematic that is.
Of course, "I won't date trans people" doesn't necessarily have anything to do with genital preference because trans people might have had bottom surgery. So a, say, straight man categorically dismissing trans women because they're not into dicks doesn't make sense because not all trans women have dicks.
But I kind of wonder what angle the tweet being linked here is coming at it from. Like the specifically mention the word "preference", which makes me wonder if this person is in fact drawing on 2013 tumblr social justice dogma that genital preferences are transphobic. I have no idea, and don't have the energy to read through the replies to see what in particular is going on.
I'm probably not the right person to ask. But I'm pretty sure chaser is actively fetishizing, not just having an orientation (lesbian) and a preference (penises) that combine in this way. Could be wrong though.
"Full transition" is a dumb term. Not all trans people want the same medical procedures and treatments. It a trans woman doesn't want bottom surgery she just... doesn't and lives her life
"Transbian" is "trans lesbian". A trans woman (or non binary person who experiences transmisogyny) who identifies as a lesbian. How am I defaulting to trans women when both the original tweet and the person you're responding to mentioned them first.
The reason people "default" to trans women in these discussions is transmisogyny and this idea that trans women will force you to be with them.
Yeah I can see how that might be a problem for an ongoing relationship that isn't exclusively sexual. Not sure how that would be dealt with. Still don't think genital preferences are necessarily a problem because of it though.
Honestly I imagine if two transbians started dating who hadn't had bottom surgery and then one one of them decided she wanted it I'm pretty sure they wouldn't break up over that or anything. Probably at that point you're emotionally commited and you accept your partner for who they are. Idk tho, shits complicated, and I reiterate that I'm probably not the person to answer this question as a dang cisgender.
I'd like to downvote because I don't think this post is the most appropriate way to frame this discussion, but I also don't want to get flagged for the next purge. :thinkin-lenin:
the op, through their comments on this thread, has clearly proven that they are able to approach this subject in a nuanced and intelligent manner. the linked tweet doesn't do either of those things. this could have just been a self post.
As someone attracted to and has dated both trans women and cis women idk about this one. People can not help who they are attracted to
Post-op, sure. But as for pre-op, some people just don't like dick. It's a sad reality :transshork-sad:, but people are allowed to have preferences. The good news is that it seems to have gotten easier over the last decade. As a side note, this tweet is a great example of everything that makes Twitter toxic.
It’s like the shark didn’t get into Julliard because of their identity and thus missed out on dancing in Katy Perry’s super bowl half time show
Oh God, it says "destiny on Twitter" as the headline. It's not what you think it is.
Yeah I was gonna say this is like the last take I’d expect from him lol
not dating post-op trans women? sure, that's pretty shitty
but not dating pre-op/non-op trans women isn't transphobia, you can't pick your sexuality
i hate this struggle session so much
This is true, but not acknowledged as such. I don’t happen to like lady dick, because I don’t like any dick and but I like ladies. And trans ladies are ladies.
that's literally what everyone is talking about here in the comments rn
calling someone transphobic because they don't want to date someone with genitals they're not attracted to is idiotic as fuck and makes us look like lunatics, it's not "preference", it's sexuality and it's fixed
yes there's straight men who are still attracted to women if they have a penis but that's not the case for most
That’s a different argument and I agree with that. Some people like dick and can’t stand pussy others see it the other way around. I believe what OP is referring to is simply taking into account could you date a trans person if they fit every other standard you have, in which case it’s probably transphobic to say no to.
in a case like that yea i would agree with it being transphobic
i just seriously hate the opinion that genitalia is just a "preference", i feel like it's basically like a woke version of "being gay is a choice" and it makes me uncomfortable as fuck
This. I hate sounding like a terf by saying I don’t like penis, but that’s what the fuck my body says. I feel like Terfs (particularly in the UK) use the genitalia preference as an excuse for saying trans women are not women, and it’s particularly insidious
im kinda confused why the user above got banned lol, kinda makes me feel like im walking on eggshells
I see. I live another day to spread liberalism and good cheer
tbh i tried dating other trans women and usually we have so many similar issues that we just become a bad vibes echo chamber and not work out
Maybe it's time to realize it's bananas to try and address sexuality with any of the nuance which is its proper due among strangers via the medium of text.
I would agree a straight dude who feels the bizarre need to LOUDLY DECLARE his lack of attraction to trans women is probably just expressing transphobia.
If it just genuinely the case a straight dude has never felt attraction to a trans woman and doubts they ever would, I mean whatever you can’t control who you’re attracted to. I’d say just yah know, keep that to yourself and if a trans woman ever does express attraction to you just politely say “thanks but no thanks”.
straight dude who feels the bizarre need to LOUDLY DECLARE his lack of attraction to trans women
That's 99.99999% of transphobic content
It's really easy to not be absolutely transphobic: just shut up. Why are you obsessing so much?
