CW: transphobia
Are any of you dating/partners with a lib? how do you handle it? the woman I've been seeing is a lib. The worst of it is that she doesn't accept that personal pronouns are a thing, so definitely a bit of a transphob. I hope its just because she is just ignorant of the issues, but in other conservations we have she does some impressive level centrism and both-siding so I don't know. "Slavery wasn't bad because it was legal, everyone did it, nobody was saying it was bad at the time" etc.
We basically broke up last night, not directly because of these issues, but they are definitely a part of it. I want to be able to be completely mask off with my partner, but I also don't want to have to get into an argument every time I use "they" in the singular. I have moments of doubt where I worry I've fallen into a weird online cult and am now do the "oh, you like (BLANK)? name their last 3 albums," but with online leftist culture.
Since I do limited praxis, sometimes all of this feels theoretical. But when I open up /r/collapse or chapo.chat, I'd like to have a partner that would be able to see the world as I see it.
Otherwise we have a great time together and are able to have really good conversations. Even that we broke up last night was because she is great at communication and was able to draw this out of me. The conversation was something that I wanted to do, but I don't know when I would have gotten around to it on my own.
More broadly, how sure are you that you found the person that you want to be with? Did you feel that you compromised/settled? I don't really believe in romantic love, but maybe its just because I haven't found it yet.
should I put an ironic closing line, to act cool?
as a black woman i have to date in a more strategic way . In addition to making sure people im dating are very vetted as not being racist, sexist, etc i also have to vet them for not being biased against any other marginalized identities because even if someone is being rude to an identity that isnt mine, the bias is likely to trickle down. Also, as someone who knows how bad it feels when privileged "allies" validate racism, sexism, transphobia, homophobia etc. with their dating habits, im also very aware to not do that.
this isnt criticism or anything OP. Im just bringing this up because i think marginalized communities have kinda advanced the conversation around decolonizing beauty politics/desireability and how allyship can (or shouldnt) be carried over into individualized social behavior, because we have to consider these things when it comes to our social habits.
i do think that part of being anti racist as a white person is not dating a racist. same for any type of marginalized identity. and i think that until privileged people realize that, we have a long way to go.
im happy you dropped the transphobe. i understand too how being an ally who is supposed to deal with privileged people's shit as a means to potentially change them (instead of making marginalized people have to do that work) can be in conflict with everything i just mentioned though
idk how ethical it is to be pro BLM and give someone head who doesnt believe slavery was that bad.....not trying to pass judgement and i am happy you dropped this woman/am sensitive to you understanding people have the ability to change and am sensitive to how my perspective as a black woman who cant afford to play those games is informing this comment to
not tryna catch smoke though
edit: just saw that the person was european so maybe that changes it?
edit edit: lets not paint thinking slavery was excusable as a typical lib phase and one that people can change from using easy "we all grow" rhetoric. theres nothing typical about that.....like people can change, but mhmmm im tryna get my partner to stop leaving the dishes out as much and not to stop.....doing whatever it is......that OP's ex was doing
I feel like there's a lot of ground between dealing with privileged people's shit to educate them and dating a bigot
i agree im just tryna be nice lol
edit: i am ironically sharing a dr umar meme but some of yall need to unironically hear this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ISnv2hXzhQ&ab_channel=Az
Yeah, I don't expect a partner to align with my beliefs perfectly, but damn. Expecting someone to at least not both sides SLAVERY is a pretty low bar! I don't see how it would be possible to love and respect someone who doesn't have some baseline beliefs about things like racism, sexism, etc.
Yeah, this, though I'd say it's more of a spectrum. I've met libs whose dating profile was full of pro-BLM, LGBT stuff, etc but when you get to talk to them more you find out they have open contempt for poor people and frame many issues in weird lib idpol (e.g. m4a supporters = berniebros, we need more POC drone pilots, etc).
Some libs are good people, have a strong moral compass - I think these people are easier to move the needle on. But some folk are just too tired and overworked to engage in revolutionary politics. How much that matters to you is really your own call, but I don't think there's anything wrong with "settling" for a lib in a romantic relationship if they're generally a good person and you have a romantic connection.
i dont date libs because libs raped me
yeah im sure socialists are capable of it too but i feel like to be a socialist in america you have to have slightly more awareness about such things
Read your recent post. Shits heavy. Glad you are on the mend. Solidarity.
Being a socialist is definitely a good first sniff test
My favorite part about this take is that, not only were some Europeans/Americans like "uh folks slavery is Not Good" since it (meaning the Atlantic slave trade) literally started in roughly 1500, but the slaves themselves knew it was bad and would have said as much if anybody asked them/bothered to write it down?! Why were slave owners so afraid of slave revolts? Because they knew the slaves wanted to free themselves, because the slaves thought slavery was bad! Slaves were humans too, and obviously would have said it was bad.
EDIT: Best critiques of slavery right at the beginning come from Spanish friars, including Bartolomé de las Casas and Tomás de Mercado. I don't need to list the countless slave rebellions, but Equiano and Douglass are two great former slaves-turned writers who also wrote about how slavery was Very Bad as they were former slaves.
Legality =/= morality is a very basic concept that escapes a lot of people, I'm finding
And not even correct, there were people who thought it was bad at the time. Even the awful French emancipated slaves in Haiti only a few years after the US ratified it's slaver constitution.
I mean to be fair, the French only emancipated the slaves in Haiti after the slaves revolted. It was a calculated choice to win support of the slave armies in the war against Spain.
bruh i'm over here begging to find a lib gf in this sea of reactionaries
People are complicated. I used to be a lib. I even used to have transphobic views. I'm not proud of it, but it happened. I'm glad my friends redeemed me and didn't just abandon me. When I met my partner, she was a lib with some conservative views. Now she's a leftist too.
Idk what people "should" do, and I'm not saying people have an obligation to behave a certain way, but I can speak to what worked for me.
Also, on the "people are complicated" note, I think it matters a lot what kind of person someone is. Being wrong isn't always the same as being a bad person. It doesn't make the wrongness right, of course. But I think there's a difference, for example, between thinking that "racism is a problem and the earned income tax credit is the solution" and thinking "racism isn't a problem for me, so I don't care if it's a problem for anyone else".
It is very complicated and probably aren't any "right" answers, hence the post and seeking other people's experiences
Ah no. I would not date people who wilfully perpetuate evil. Very few people are truely evil, most jost dont care
yeah. I used to be a reactionary lib myself, so I feel the need to give people slack to de-program themselves, but at a certain point if they aren't making the effort it becomes untenable
I was a bit of a lib once. Got into a relationship with a lib. I started becoming a proper lefty. Radicalised her. We broke up. She still a lefty.
Praxis
She has a weird mixed bag of ideas, but I think most of it is from being from europe, so more left than most libs as a starting point, but still just a lib that doesn't want the world to change/believes it can't
Roma and the slur about them came up recently, actually. Something along the lines of them choosing to be nomads/without land. Same with the Jews. Not enough of a history buff quickly/expertly debunk this, but strong "native people taught the white people to plant corn" vibes
Definitely this. I get our political views are a bit outside the norm, which can make it hard to even remember where exactly the norm is, but those aren't normal liberal views, those are really really bad.
This is what im saying! its not even just being an ally/making sure youre politically alligned, its also just self love to be selective. i know its quarantine and people got the horny horns but damn ur mamma didnt spend all that time carrying, feeding you, clothing you for this
Thanks. Yeah, plenty of fish. Getting along isn't the same as long term partnership
Yeah we're going to have to intervene here
Volcel officers are en route to your location to prevent any exchange of vital essences going on. We'd wish you good luck, pervert, but you will lose regardless
I mean, people can change over time, but it's also not your obligation to "work on them" or anything like that, especially if they're apologists for fuckin' slavery (god damn, yo). The fundamental moral disagreement between you two was obviously too much for the relationship to handle the strain, otherwise I assume it...would have handled the strain, and you'd still be a couple, yeah?
Women dumped me in the past specifically over shitty attitudes and reactionary beliefs I had, and while I like to think I've done a good job shaking off those attitudes, it wouldn't have done either of us any good to try to sit through an uncomfortable relationship with each other where they would try to "fix me" or whatever. They would have become exhausted I'm sure, and I probably would have become resentful.
I dated this white girl that said people back then didn't know any better, as if it's a perfectly good excuse as to why slavery was excusable. I'm black.
This other lady I had a crush on is a Biden/Kamala stan. Even posted a pic (can't remember if Photoshopped or real) of her next to Biden, with hashtags like #ThatGirlWasMe . She thinks things are going to improve once Trump is gone.
Honestly don't let this shit get to you, if it becomes unbearable and you have to break up, it is what it is. Best you can do is try to educate them or get them to think from a different perspective. My ideal future wife is actually someone that's not aware of all this, but we can get high together and I can try to help her see and read/listen to theory. Just someone who's genuinely a good, kind-hearted person that's open to learning and growing together.
dont you want someone whose down from the jump though? someone who you can talk to about theory/teach/be kind but knows basic things like slavery was not excusable? (im just asking as a black person out of curiousity, not to incite, im just wondering)
this is also assuming youre still entertaining (or ever really did) the slavery excusable type. (Not directed at the kamala thing because that's IMO a more general normie stance that isnt so on the face)
sorry if this is too invasive
sorry if this is too invasive
Oh not at all, I was actually gonna ask if you had some bad experiences finding people to date.
The girl I had a discussion with about slavery really threw me off when she said that shit. If it was someone else I would've pressed them on the matter, but this girl had an unhealthy and verbally abusive relationship, so I thought maybe she's just naive and tries to see some good in people, even if they're really shitty. At no point in the relationship did it feel like I was a black bf experience. She's a decent person, just has some dumb views. I do wish I broke up with her sooner though.
Tbh the ideal future wife part was me thinking about someone I've been really interested in. I'd be ok either way, but it just feels more rewarding to convert someone from being a lib. Also means there's potentially more we can talk about as I open her up to more leftist theory.
i havent had bad experiences trying to find people to date because, idk im lucky i guess, but i have dealt with people im dating being secretly racist, or sexist or horrible in a way that is shitty and seemed to show up suddenly so im very into spotting who might be a secret ahole. I am also a survivor of domestic violence so that definitely feeds into it.
I have been able to find people though who are woke from the jump which is nice, im also in a very liberal place. Some of those people i have taught a little (because sharing perspectives and challenging each other is natural) but to be honest the idea of me, a black woman, having to really convert anyone on anything that has to do with my basic right to exist seems incredibly exhausting and very much touches on how black women are constantly made to be everyone's mammies and hold everyone's hand so its not my ideal way of being in a relationship. I also think im wrong a lot so i dont think im really one to convert people even if i had the energy
I feel you, and I'm glad you survived and that you're here with us. I can definitely relate with the struggle of actually trying to convert ppl, it's hard enough online as it is. I just figured it would be more positive to gain another comrade than solely just sticking with someone that already knows. If they love you and see how passionate you are about it, I think they'd be more receptive to leftist theory. But I'd be happy either way tbh, if it's meant to be.
I also think im wrong a lot so i dont think im really one to convert people even if i had the energy
Yea, I'm still learning too. I haven't gotten someone to convert completely yet, but I've at least gotten others to see politics differently.
