Vegans and vegetarians can move along and enjoy their day. You're cool already, and off the hook.
Cows are ruminants. That's a group of animals that are specially adapted to eat nutritionally-useless grasses. That's their whole deal. If you're living in a pastoral or premodern farming society then that's great because you can't eat grass and you can eat cows, so it's free food. But instead you live in a society (insert meme) where we grow food specifically for cows then ship it to cows. Again, the animal that's specialized in eating things that have no nutritional value, so we're going out of our way to grow plants with no nutritional value, and then ship enough of it around to feed an animal anyway.
What does that mean? It means by whatever metric you choose, cow meat is worse than half as efficient as other common sources of animal protein.
Feed conversion ratios. Enough feed to make a pound of beef is enough to make 2.5 pounds of pork or 5 pounds of chicken.
CO2 per calorie. 1000 calories of beef costs 13.8 kg of CO2. 1000 calories of pork costs 4.45kg CO2. 1000 calories of chicken costs 3.37kg CO2. Also note lamb topping the charts, which will be a running theme. (Also an extra reason not to use broccoli as your primary calorie source, if eating 13 pounds of broccoli a day wasn't a good enough reason on its own.)
Land use per year per calorie. How much land did that 1000 calories take? You'll need 119 square meters for beef, 7.26 square meters for pork, or 6.61 square meters for chicken. Note lamb topping the chart again. (Also apparently prawns can be farmed super dense, that's something interesting that I didn't know.)
Why do sheep show up so high on some of these charts? Because they're also ruminants. Don't eat sheep either.
Yo sorry but fuck vegetarians. Abusing a cow for 4-6 years, taking her babies, killing the sons and then sending her to the slaughterhouse is in absolutely no way different from buying meat.
Just fucking go vegan, there are even good cheese alternatives now you have no excuses.
It blows my mind that veganism gets so much push back. It's not actually hard to go vegan at all, people just don't like change.
Even here on Chapo. Look at the mixed response to your comment. You're speaking the truth. Yet veganism is the time where suddenly Chapo starts to care about civility.
I just hate when people make this kind of argument. "Doing something good i.e. not eating meat doesn't count if you don't do all the good i.e. also not eating dairy." It's in my view extremely unfair and mostly used to cynically dismiss anything good being done at all and used as an excuse not to.
53% of cows are killed by the dairy industry, so UHM AKSHUALLY you’d be better off eating beef and quitting milk and cheese
Those type of arguments are also counterproductive in the extreme. Want people to go vegan? You're going to have better luck getting vegetarians to take that extra step than you are talking to people who eat meat.
If you'd ever talked to a vegetarian, you'd know that's not true. Most of them are vegetarian precisely because they "can't give up cheese". It's honestly harder to talk to a die-hard vegetarian than a clueless omni.
Vegetarian is the furthest I'd ever go if I stopped eating meat. So hearing vegans shit all over that just makes me think even more that they are just holier-than-thou assholes.
Don’t use vegans attitudes as a reason to spitefully continue eating meat. If you want to be vegetarian that’s fantastic.
I don't, I have other reasons to continue eating meat (although I have been eating quite a bit less since living on my own). The holier-than-thou attitude just poisons any discussion about vegetarianism and veganism, turning most people off from engaging in the discussion in the first place, or forcing meat eaters (and even potential vegetarians) to defend themselves from someone who sees animals as somehow equivalent to humans.
Well do you have any defense for eating animals?
Nothing you would accept. We have a fundamental disagreement on the "meat is murder" thing. Animals aren't sapient, it isn't morally wrong to eat them.
They feel pain just the way we do. What's the difference?
Would you not care if you saw me slitting a dogs throat?
Like I said, nothing you would accept. I've already discussed elsewhere in the thread about dogs being evolved to be our companions.
I think this comes from a place of: "My friends and I are dying in a capitalist hellworld and you want me to make animals a priority? Healthcare pls."
Is this ideal? No. Do we live in an ideal world, where it's reasonable to expect ideal actions? No. We're going to have to accept -- for now -- something less than ideal if we want to get anything done.
What do you mean by making it a priority? You can do everything else in your life just the same while not chewing on animal corpses.
Veganism doesn't change a thing about your life other than being healthier (not guaranteed but is usually the case with people who go vegan, including me). It's pretty much a known fact by now that going vegan is the most significant change you can make to avoid climate catastrophy, especially considering that you don't have to dedicate your life torwards it. It simply requires you to buy a can of beans rather than flesh and tiddy juice next time you're shopping.
If it's that easy, why don't more people do it? And it's not a matter of people simply not caring about animals -- plenty of Americans view their pets as having the same value as humans, and are squeamish about hurting animals (even ones they don't like).
I'd suggest that in a culture where eating meat is ubiquitous, it's harder to shift away from animal products than you make it out to be. It requires re-evaluating all of your consumer choices, dealing with the social dynamic of both mainstream folks ridiculing you and (some) people ostensibly on your side being obnoxious (witness a vegan saying "fuck vegetarians"), figuring out how you handle food at social events (ever met someone who's insulted if you don't try their dish?), writing off a lot of convenient food options, etc. And that's if you're living alone. What if your household has other people who buy groceries and make meals, and they're not on the same page?
Exactly, it is very hard to see beyond the cognitive dissonance and realize that you're being cruel to some animals while claiming to love them.
I only said that because I thought this place was a bit more informed on the matter, forgot I'm not in r/vegancirclejerk. Obviously I wouldn't say that to vegetarians because I've witnessed them go vegan with simply just having some simple well-mannered talk.
Either way I've gotten to a point where I cannot value human relations more than animal lives. If I am going to refuse you're plate filled with animal parts, I am not going to be apologetic about it. I am not sorry for not eating animals.
It's not this as much as cultural and social pressures making it difficult to give up animal products. When X is ingrained in almost everyone's personal lives, it's hard to give up X. This isn't a comment on whether you should or shouldn't give up X; I'm only saying that it's not as easy as "well just don't do it anymore."
Probably the best approach, yeah.
Nothing wrong with that.
If you're a vegan, surely you're aware it isn't as simple as this, especially if you don't live in an area that's as friendly to vegans.
I went vegetarian when I was living with my parents in Albania (which like all other balkan countries, meat is sacred and most people even consider it offensive not to eat it, and of course I've had fights with my dad about this). You might say it's not the same as veganism, but the only reason I didn't go completely vegan was because I wasn't cooking for myself and my mom did not know shit about how to make a meal without milk or cheese or yogurt. As soon as I moved to Germany to study, I went vegan and everytime I go back home and take a look at the markets, I don't see anything that would be missing from my kitchen (except for the meat/cheese replacements that I don't eat anymore).
So even for you it wasn't as simple as you made it sound, which was my point.
My point is that there are no excuses for most people that are reading this, which I'm pretty sure they're in a situation where they buy food themselves.
I guess I misunderstood what you meant when you said veganism doesn't change a thing about your life. For many people, interaction with food isn't just buying it at a store and cooking it at home.
I mean I guess it's a bit more complicated than that. But I personally no longer see the exploitation of animals as a choice one should be free to make or veganism as a sacrifice, it's a responsibility in my perspective.
That's a different argument. We've gone from it's simple to it's a sacrifice. I think that understanding is key to messaging if you hope to win people over to the idea.
I think you misunderstood, I said I no longer see veganism as a sacrifice. Words are hard :/
My mistake, I read "is a sacrifice". Of course, probably because that's what it actually is for most people. Being a responsibility doesn't exclude it from sacrifice.
Yeah I guess you're right.
How many places on earth are rice and beans not available, and cheap?
How many restaurants serve just rice and beans? How many of your friends serve vegan meals when they have parties? Do you really think people want to eat the same meal over and over?
You are oversimplifying it.
I mean, either it’s incompatible with your morals, in which case missing a slice of cake at a bday party or just eating some fries and salad when you’re out with friends isn’t that big a sacrifice, or you’re fine with eating murdered animals. If you’re fine with it then whatever, but people shouldn’t make excuses.
Also the more vegans there are the more vegan options will appear in restaurants. Capitalism baby. I’ve even noticed a massive uptick in my area in the last five years or so.
People are completely fine making excuses if that excuse is they couldn't find anything to eat all day or eating most vegan options makes them miserable. But most people are ok with eating murdered animals. Generally speaking that isn't considered immoral.
Yeh, but “I couldn’t find anything all day” and “all vegan food sucks” is just objectively false, especially in 2020. Even Burger King is making vegan stuff now. There’s also such a thing as making your own food?
Like I said, people who care for animals and make it a moral priority to not eat their corpses will make the “sacrifice”, the rest are mostly in the grips of carnist realism
Well it's not so much as all vegan food sucks as people have their own palates and if they have limited options they get tired of it. You're right though, it is getting far easier to find options.
So I see you're ridin with biden
Idk, I'm vegetarian but have dietary restrictions that make going vegan difficult. Not impossible, and I do plan to go vegan some day, but it takes planning and I have to be really careful so I get the nutrition I need within both that and my other restrictions.
I'm not saying this to be like "well I'm one of the good vegetarians, vegans BTFO"- I just think it's worth acknowledging that some people might have larger challenges with veganism than others
This is the bit that people need to keep in mind. I'm glad you're trying to get there, in a way that's safe for you.
Obviously I'm not talking about people who have legitimate health problems and a diet change like that can cause problems. But 99% of people are fine and have no excuse
Sounds like it's not worth it. Don't harm yourself over some useless moralizing.
I just said I'm not going to do it until I have a plan to do it without harming myself. Don't be a paternalistic ass
And while it's not by any means a revolutionary act, I don't think going vegan is useless moralizing. Like, I don't think that eating dairy is inherently wrong, but it's certainly fucked up to do it in the current system. And I don't think that me or a few others choosing not to eat animal products is going to topple that system, but it seems like the bare minimum before doing any kind of work in that arena. I'm not condemning people who can't or won't go vegan, whether they have a "good" excuse or not, but I think it's kind of ridiculous how so many in leftist spaces are just so hostile to the very idea of veganism
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