Vegans and vegetarians can move along and enjoy their day. You're cool already, and off the hook.
Cows are ruminants. That's a group of animals that are specially adapted to eat nutritionally-useless grasses. That's their whole deal. If you're living in a pastoral or premodern farming society then that's great because you can't eat grass and you can eat cows, so it's free food. But instead you live in a society (insert meme) where we grow food specifically for cows then ship it to cows. Again, the animal that's specialized in eating things that have no nutritional value, so we're going out of our way to grow plants with no nutritional value, and then ship enough of it around to feed an animal anyway.
What does that mean? It means by whatever metric you choose, cow meat is worse than half as efficient as other common sources of animal protein.
Feed conversion ratios. Enough feed to make a pound of beef is enough to make 2.5 pounds of pork or 5 pounds of chicken.
CO2 per calorie. 1000 calories of beef costs 13.8 kg of CO2. 1000 calories of pork costs 4.45kg CO2. 1000 calories of chicken costs 3.37kg CO2. Also note lamb topping the charts, which will be a running theme. (Also an extra reason not to use broccoli as your primary calorie source, if eating 13 pounds of broccoli a day wasn't a good enough reason on its own.)
Land use per year per calorie. How much land did that 1000 calories take? You'll need 119 square meters for beef, 7.26 square meters for pork, or 6.61 square meters for chicken. Note lamb topping the chart again. (Also apparently prawns can be farmed super dense, that's something interesting that I didn't know.)
Why do sheep show up so high on some of these charts? Because they're also ruminants. Don't eat sheep either.
I've always wondered how people can recognize the moral implications of eating meat and go vegetarian, but excuse/ignore all the harm the dairy industry inflicts to animals. Vegetarianism should be morally opposed in almost an equal way to how vegans oppose eating meat, unless it's because you're trying to transition to veganism. I really can't get past how certain vegetarian cannot see the hypocrisy of opposing the meat industry and yet continuing to fuel the dairy one
Mega necro posting but as the post was just linked in another thread fuck it I thought I'd answer. As a vegetarian and with many vegan/vegi friends I'd say the answer is mostly effort, most vegetarians do understand its not great, but its in the similar way that buying clothes made from sweatshop labour isn't great or the use of cars that emit pollution isn't great.
We all do things that suck because society has made these choices the easy option. We can go against them but it requires effort and it will be a whole lot of effort if you want to make each of your life choices the most ethical. I'm like 99% vegan as I don't drink milk or eat eggs straight, however I don't really care that much if its a small ingredient in something pre-made.
Its about how much effort you are personally willing to go to relieve suffering in the world, personally it stops for me at being flexible on veganism
Dairy products are much better for the environment than beef, despite both involving cows. Even though you're still fundamentally converting grass into food, at least with dairy you don't have to grow an entire cow every time.
Still not the best, just significantly better.
So basically, dairy is okay as long as you can guarantee the cows are grass fed, right?
Kind of? Dairy in general is about as okay for the environment as poultry is. If that's your bar then that's your bar.
The cows are still farting that methane my dude. How is that ok for the environment. And let's not even talk about the abuse.
Which amounts to a whopping 10% of greenhouse gas emissions, and that's not just cows:
Greenhouse gas emissions from agriculture come from livestock such as cows, agricultural soils, and rice production.
Maybe look at the second of the sources the thread is based on instead of asserting fart facts.
dunno what it's like in the land of the free, but here in new zealand meat is freaking expensive, so good veg recipes actually go really far. here's one of my favourites, that's easy as fuck to make, and this is coming from a person that hates cooking. https://www.theironyou.com/2016/03/vegan-easy-chickpea-tikka-masala.html
- cans of chickpeas are like a dollar
- cans of tomatoes are like 50¢
- spices might be a bit pricey to collect at first, but once you've got them they'll last a while.
that's it, that's all the ingredients that you have to actually buy.
I spend less money on food as a vegan than when I ate meat. I just don't use many of the meat substitutes which are the pricy part.
Can I ask what your favourite meal is? The first step for me personally was learning to make a cheap and vegan version of my favourite meals and then I never looked back.
Dude I'm spending like 2/3 of what I used to sfter going vegan. There are a million cheap recepies on youtube. Just buy some spices and you're gucci.
Do only eggs & fish! It's easy as fuck, won't frustrate your habits at all, and will be much cheaper. Chicken probably have a soul so make sure to find a provider who does actually happy free range eggs, but sardines and other small bottom-of-the-food-chain seafood probably don't have a soul, I mean come on. They can cover a huge variety of day-to-day culinary cravings depending how you prepare them.
Happy free range eggs don't exist. The happiest chicken in the world has been bred to produce far more eggs than her body can handle and there are often some really nasty side effects (impounded eggs, nutritional deficiencies, many more I'm sure, but eggs aren't my specialty).
And for seafood, it's not about them having a soul (although come on, they do), it's about the rest of the food chain depending on these small fish. It's about fishless oceans by 2048 because of commercial farming. It's about larger marine life, whales, dolphins, orcas, sea turtles, losing their habitat and food source, not to mention getting caught in commercial fishing nets and left to die.
So no, eggs and fish aren't a good solution. Maybe beans and rice seems boring, but with the right spices, holy hell are they tasty! Try lentils with cumin, turmeric, curry powder, and a little bit of cinnamon, but mix the lentils with heavily caramelized onions. So fucking good!
Yeah of course actual veganism is good, while fish&egg-only is only "slightly less bad". But the latter requires zero effort and change of habits, while the former requires a small effort. In a reply to someone who keeps postponing "going vegan" indefinitely, why not offer the no-effort, no-excuse solution that they'll barely notice if they start today? I won't shatter the laziness barrier through text, but I can point out a complete lack-of-barrier they might not have considered. We all do it to some extent no matter what, for example I've never seen anyone warn against the insecticide-heavy crops when trying to convert omnivores, because the step of going vegan is obvious and significant while preferring oats to rice just saves some insects. Still saying to a meat-eater "try eating rice and beans it's good, farming practices are a question for another time" is fine, even though the better thing to say would be "try eating oats and beans, growing rice kills too many critters please nobody fucking recommand the scourge known as RICE in this thread"!
The stuff I said about sentience was bullshit though that's fair.
Yo sorry but fuck vegetarians. Abusing a cow for 4-6 years, taking her babies, killing the sons and then sending her to the slaughterhouse is in absolutely no way different from buying meat.
Just fucking go vegan, there are even good cheese alternatives now you have no excuses.
It blows my mind that veganism gets so much push back. It's not actually hard to go vegan at all, people just don't like change.
Even here on Chapo. Look at the mixed response to your comment. You're speaking the truth. Yet veganism is the time where suddenly Chapo starts to care about civility.
I just hate when people make this kind of argument. "Doing something good i.e. not eating meat doesn't count if you don't do all the good i.e. also not eating dairy." It's in my view extremely unfair and mostly used to cynically dismiss anything good being done at all and used as an excuse not to.
53% of cows are killed by the dairy industry, so UHM AKSHUALLY you’d be better off eating beef and quitting milk and cheese
Those type of arguments are also counterproductive in the extreme. Want people to go vegan? You're going to have better luck getting vegetarians to take that extra step than you are talking to people who eat meat.
If you'd ever talked to a vegetarian, you'd know that's not true. Most of them are vegetarian precisely because they "can't give up cheese". It's honestly harder to talk to a die-hard vegetarian than a clueless omni.
Vegetarian is the furthest I'd ever go if I stopped eating meat. So hearing vegans shit all over that just makes me think even more that they are just holier-than-thou assholes.
Don’t use vegans attitudes as a reason to spitefully continue eating meat. If you want to be vegetarian that’s fantastic.
I don't, I have other reasons to continue eating meat (although I have been eating quite a bit less since living on my own). The holier-than-thou attitude just poisons any discussion about vegetarianism and veganism, turning most people off from engaging in the discussion in the first place, or forcing meat eaters (and even potential vegetarians) to defend themselves from someone who sees animals as somehow equivalent to humans.
Nothing you would accept. We have a fundamental disagreement on the "meat is murder" thing. Animals aren't sapient, it isn't morally wrong to eat them.
They feel pain just the way we do. What's the difference?
Would you not care if you saw me slitting a dogs throat?
Like I said, nothing you would accept. I've already discussed elsewhere in the thread about dogs being evolved to be our companions.
veganism is the time where suddenly Chapo starts to care about civility.
I think this comes from a place of: "My friends and I are dying in a capitalist hellworld and you want me to make animals a priority? Healthcare pls."
Is this ideal? No. Do we live in an ideal world, where it's reasonable to expect ideal actions? No. We're going to have to accept -- for now -- something less than ideal if we want to get anything done.
What do you mean by making it a priority? You can do everything else in your life just the same while not chewing on animal corpses.
Veganism doesn't change a thing about your life other than being healthier (not guaranteed but is usually the case with people who go vegan, including me). It's pretty much a known fact by now that going vegan is the most significant change you can make to avoid climate catastrophy, especially considering that you don't have to dedicate your life torwards it. It simply requires you to buy a can of beans rather than flesh and tiddy juice next time you're shopping.
If it's that easy, why don't more people do it? And it's not a matter of people simply not caring about animals -- plenty of Americans view their pets as having the same value as humans, and are squeamish about hurting animals (even ones they don't like).
I'd suggest that in a culture where eating meat is ubiquitous, it's harder to shift away from animal products than you make it out to be. It requires re-evaluating all of your consumer choices, dealing with the social dynamic of both mainstream folks ridiculing you and (some) people ostensibly on your side being obnoxious (witness a vegan saying "fuck vegetarians"), figuring out how you handle food at social events (ever met someone who's insulted if you don't try their dish?), writing off a lot of convenient food options, etc. And that's if you're living alone. What if your household has other people who buy groceries and make meals, and they're not on the same page?
If it’s that easy, why don’t more people do it? And it’s not a matter of people simply not caring about animals – plenty of Americans view their pets as having the same value as humans, and are squeamish about hurting animals (even ones they don’t like).
Exactly, it is very hard to see beyond the cognitive dissonance and realize that you're being cruel to some animals while claiming to love them.
(witness a vegan saying “fuck vegetarians”)
I only said that because I thought this place was a bit more informed on the matter, forgot I'm not in r/vegancirclejerk. Obviously I wouldn't say that to vegetarians because I've witnessed them go vegan with simply just having some simple well-mannered talk.
Either way I've gotten to a point where I cannot value human relations more than animal lives. If I am going to refuse you're plate filled with animal parts, I am not going to be apologetic about it. I am not sorry for not eating animals.
it is very hard to see beyond the cognitive dissonance and realize that you’re being cruel to some animals while claiming to love them
It's not this as much as cultural and social pressures making it difficult to give up animal products. When X is ingrained in almost everyone's personal lives, it's hard to give up X. This isn't a comment on whether you should or shouldn't give up X; I'm only saying that it's not as easy as "well just don't do it anymore."
Obviously I wouldn’t say that to vegetarians because I’ve witnessed them go vegan with simply just having some simple well-mannered talk.
Probably the best approach, yeah.
I am not sorry for not eating animals.
Nothing wrong with that.
If you're a vegan, surely you're aware it isn't as simple as this, especially if you don't live in an area that's as friendly to vegans.
I went vegetarian when I was living with my parents in Albania (which like all other balkan countries, meat is sacred and most people even consider it offensive not to eat it, and of course I've had fights with my dad about this). You might say it's not the same as veganism, but the only reason I didn't go completely vegan was because I wasn't cooking for myself and my mom did not know shit about how to make a meal without milk or cheese or yogurt. As soon as I moved to Germany to study, I went vegan and everytime I go back home and take a look at the markets, I don't see anything that would be missing from my kitchen (except for the meat/cheese replacements that I don't eat anymore).
So even for you it wasn't as simple as you made it sound, which was my point.
My point is that there are no excuses for most people that are reading this, which I'm pretty sure they're in a situation where they buy food themselves.
I guess I misunderstood what you meant when you said veganism doesn't change a thing about your life. For many people, interaction with food isn't just buying it at a store and cooking it at home.
I mean I guess it's a bit more complicated than that. But I personally no longer see the exploitation of animals as a choice one should be free to make or veganism as a sacrifice, it's a responsibility in my perspective.
That's a different argument. We've gone from it's simple to it's a sacrifice. I think that understanding is key to messaging if you hope to win people over to the idea.
I think you misunderstood, I said I no longer see veganism as a sacrifice. Words are hard :/
My mistake, I read "is a sacrifice". Of course, probably because that's what it actually is for most people. Being a responsibility doesn't exclude it from sacrifice.
How many places on earth are rice and beans not available, and cheap?
How many restaurants serve just rice and beans? How many of your friends serve vegan meals when they have parties? Do you really think people want to eat the same meal over and over?
You are oversimplifying it.
I mean, either it’s incompatible with your morals, in which case missing a slice of cake at a bday party or just eating some fries and salad when you’re out with friends isn’t that big a sacrifice, or you’re fine with eating murdered animals. If you’re fine with it then whatever, but people shouldn’t make excuses.
Also the more vegans there are the more vegan options will appear in restaurants. Capitalism baby. I’ve even noticed a massive uptick in my area in the last five years or so.
People are completely fine making excuses if that excuse is they couldn't find anything to eat all day or eating most vegan options makes them miserable. But most people are ok with eating murdered animals. Generally speaking that isn't considered immoral.
Yeh, but “I couldn’t find anything all day” and “all vegan food sucks” is just objectively false, especially in 2020. Even Burger King is making vegan stuff now. There’s also such a thing as making your own food?
Like I said, people who care for animals and make it a moral priority to not eat their corpses will make the “sacrifice”, the rest are mostly in the grips of carnist realism
Well it's not so much as all vegan food sucks as people have their own palates and if they have limited options they get tired of it. You're right though, it is getting far easier to find options.
No. We’re going to have to accept – for now – something less than ideal if we want to get anything done.
So I see you're ridin with biden
It’s not actually hard to go vegan at all
Idk, I'm vegetarian but have dietary restrictions that make going vegan difficult. Not impossible, and I do plan to go vegan some day, but it takes planning and I have to be really careful so I get the nutrition I need within both that and my other restrictions.
I'm not saying this to be like "well I'm one of the good vegetarians, vegans BTFO"- I just think it's worth acknowledging that some people might have larger challenges with veganism than others
as far as possible and practicable
This is the bit that people need to keep in mind. I'm glad you're trying to get there, in a way that's safe for you.
Obviously I'm not talking about people who have legitimate health problems and a diet change like that can cause problems. But 99% of people are fine and have no excuse
but it takes planning and I have to be really careful so I get the nutrition I need within both that and my other restrictions.
Sounds like it's not worth it. Don't harm yourself over some useless moralizing.
I just said I'm not going to do it until I have a plan to do it without harming myself. Don't be a paternalistic ass
And while it's not by any means a revolutionary act, I don't think going vegan is useless moralizing. Like, I don't think that eating dairy is inherently wrong, but it's certainly fucked up to do it in the current system. And I don't think that me or a few others choosing not to eat animal products is going to topple that system, but it seems like the bare minimum before doing any kind of work in that arena. I'm not condemning people who can't or won't go vegan, whether they have a "good" excuse or not, but I think it's kind of ridiculous how so many in leftist spaces are just so hostile to the very idea of veganism
I do wonder what long-pig tastes like though.
Me too. I've been vegan for years, but it sometimes crosses my mind that humans are the only animals who can give you permission to eat them. If I ever eat another animal, it'll probably be a human (cause I'd definitely accept that offer)
I already mostly don't outside of mixed ground beef + pork simply because how expensive beef is
#ChickenGang
Have you ever tried a bean? Super cheap and you don't have to murder anything.
Have you ever considered that we just don't care about the "murder" of livestock? No amount of "meat is murder" moralizing is going to change that fact.
Have you considered that that makes you an asshole?
Actually, that's a little harsh. You're just living in this society that constantly bombards you with the message that livestock animals don't have feelings and deserve the literal torture that is their lives. With any luck someday you'll break the societal programming and see the truth.
If you feel like engaging more, we can totally talk. I'll help you think through your opinions so you at least know where you stand. My first question would be: would you eat a dog?
No, dogs evolved alongside us to be companions. Cows evolved/were domesticated to be our food and provide milk. There is a clear difference.
Ok, what are some differences between a companion animal and a food animal? How can we tell one from the other?
You really can't see how dogs provide companionship in ways cows never could? You can't see how we literally co-evolved with dogs to work together. How dogs are literally used to save and improve people's lives, again in ways cows never could.
No, I don't see an obvious difference, which is why I'm asking you. Please tell me some concrete differences between companion animals and food animals.
Edit: Alright, I have to start doing work now, so my replies are going to be a little more spaced out. I'm still here though and am not ignoring you.
Have you heard of a seeing-eye cow? Or a search and rescue cow? Or a seizure alert cow? An emotional support cow?
You must have never had a dog to not understand how they provide companionship. Humans and dogs form emotional bonds that improve the lives of both. Dogs provide physical and mental comfort, cows don't. Before that they were hunting companions and watchful protectors, again roles that cows could never fill.
There are seeing-eye mini-horses. I would guess the reason there aren't service animal cows is because cows are too big.
I see no reason that humans and cows couldn't form similar emotional bonds. Someone else posted some adorable gifs of cows acting just like big dogs and I'm sure you've seen that picture of the farmer kid asleep cuddling with his cow.
Now tell me again why it's wrong to eat dogs? Because I don't think I understand your position yet.
Idk it's hard like one of the few things that still bring me carnal satisfaction is eating meat.
I've seen earthlings, and a bunch of other documentaries on it. Hell I'll even try to recall the horrific images of the animals before I eat.
I've tried vegan a couple times and maybe I dont know what to buy but the substitutes sucked. I dont like jackfruit as a meat replacement. My wife can't have grains or legumes so to cook for us what the fuck do I do.
We eat small palm sized portions from animals that are billed as humanely raised from local ranchers but I dont see myself becoming vegan anytime soon.
I would switch to lab grown meat, I've had some of the beyond stuff and that's decent.
Final thing is how do you reconcile there is no ethical consumption under capitalism with veganism as a remedy for climate change. I mean I would support making meat illegal as that would actually cause some change rather than 100 chapo.chat users becoming vegan.
Yeah its selfish but I put my enjoyment of one of that last few things I like over the seemingly negligable benefit from me & spouse becoming vegan.
Open to discussing of course and I have immense respect for vegans.
I figure anyone who's going to be convinced by vegan/vegetarian arguments has already been convinced. The reason I made this thread is because, by the numbers, cutting cow meat from your diet has a big chunk of the environmental benefits of vegetarianism, while being easier. So you're exactly the kind of person I'm trying to convince to eat chicken instead.
how do you reconcile there is no ethical consumption under capitalism with veganism as a remedy for climate change.
So, no amount of individual consumer action is going to fix climate change. The problems are there because they're cheaper for the owning class, who have to maximize profits. When I see the "rethink everything!" slash "everyone in the west needs to restructure their day to day lives!" stuff I roll my eyes, since it's putting the blame on individuals and letting the actual culprits - capital - off the hook. People frame it as if unsustainable practices are for our benefit, but since when has capital done things for our benefit?
That said, while a lot of problems go away if we abolish capitalism, some don't. I think a socialist economy can sustainably and semi-ethically provide meat to everyone who wants it. But I don't think there's any way to physically produce enough beef to satisfy current consumer habits without making a mess of climate change. So I think it's important to start getting used to some changes already.
Good point on the chicken over beef for the methane production from cows. I mean the ethical aspect is the same as chickens are super intelligent and have personalities.
Good thread, saw it this morning and it made me defensive & angry but that's worth critically examining within myself, basiaclly priviledge, entitlement, and disgust at asceticism.
I think fish isnt a good option either as I feel over fishing means the rest should be for cultural/subsistance and farmed fish is horrid.
I do firmly believe that if someone does make the choice to eat meat they definatly should see how the animals are butchered, be physically present for a slaughter and eat/utilize the entire animal.
This thread has reminded me that despite being both online and a vegan, I fucking hate online vegans
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FQMbXvn2RNI
I unironically want this to happen irl tbh
Great post. Love meat but that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t be more aware of the impacts of my choices. Would be interested to see how dense quail can be farmed.
Would be interested to see how dense quail can be farmed.
how far can i go with torturing these birds so they don't die too early from it?
Seriously though, cattle is one of the most ineffective means to produce meat. Mutton works because they're often raised in harsh environments where not much can grow or breed, but cow pastures are almost always prime land.
Nah, I like cow meat.
Edit: and broccoli? What is this about broccoli?
