The Israelis have the power to end the political and economic conditions (which they created and maintain) which lead to violence
The Palestinians do not
If you're saddened or angered by the deaths of Israeli civilians, you can take those complaints straight to the Israeli government. Any handwringing about violence committed by the Palestinians is de facto support for the illegal occupation of Palestinian land and the apartheid state of Israel.
Is it hand-wringing to feel upset at civilians being taken hostage? Tell me why I should look an 8-year old Israeli kid in the eye and tell them they deserve what's coming to them
I think it doesn’t help to turn the focal core of what you’re upset with to that, in this moment. Yeah, it sucks. But tell me why I should look a Palestinian 8-year old in the eye and tell them their parents deserved to be tortured and killed. A tiger is backed into a corner and stabbed repeatedly, and swipes out with its claws — if you’re unhappy with who it hits, let’s root for the tiger to liberate itself so there isn’t a need for any swiping. And let’s also be upset with the assholes who would put their children in the way of a cornered tiger as a means of controlling it
What the fuck? Israel is moving settlers from Israel and other parts of the world into the West Bank with the explicit purpose of genociding the Palestinian people. Israel goes into the West Bank, rips Palestinians out of their homes, demolishes them, and moves settlers into new buildings. This is happening in 2023.
What does that have to do with being forcibly relocated to countries that won't even take them? And what about the ones that dobresir their government? Should they be allowed to stay? Would some future Palestinian court be set up to determine that?
Israelis are like Canadians or Americans in terms of how they relate to global hierarchies and oppression. I would wager that's what most Hexbear users are as well.
I mean, I consider the killing of the Romanov children to be a tragic necessity at best, And someone recently argued to me that it wasn't even actually necessary. And also while I was searching for that post I was reminded that someone else told me that there was no evidence of an order from the higher ups to kill the kids.
Like, I completely agree that revolutions are messy and that we can't condemn them for excesses and errors, and that the scope of the amount of children killed by the forces they are fighting against are much higher and deserve our tears much more.
But at the end of the day, Alexei was 13, unequivocably a child, and with no administrative power as well. Applying some sort of collective guilt to him for the crimes of his father/dynasty is not materialist. Ideally, if the Civil War situation hadn't forced their hand, he would have been Puyi'd instead.
Like the person you're replying to here is being a concern troll asshole but on a base level I don't think concern for the murder of children is a bad thing. Like I think being able to say "wow, a child died, that sucks" proves that you are still human. I'm not sure I want to fight a revolution on the side of people who don't retain the idea that killing children is something to be avoided as much as possible.
In the case of this conflict, it absolutely needs to be acknowledged that the rage for the death of these children should be set at the feet of the colonizers themselves, not the people resisting them, to be clear. But I can't agree with the implication that I can't be sad at all about kids dying. Kids are my life. I work with them professionally and they are the primary thing I care about in the world. Any child's death is going to get to me on some level. Absolutely I should put their deaths in context and look at the bigger picture, and put the fault for their deaths at the right person. But that doesn't mean the base emotion of "I am sad a child died" is wrong.
I literally acknowledged that perspective is important like three times in those paragraphs. Sorry I have a bit of an autistic fixation on this. I get it. The victims of the Tsars deserve our tears more than Alexei does. I literally said that already. But idk any mention of the Romanov deaths is going to trigger a response from be because its a fixation. It was one of the things I struggled with for the longest time because of my difficulty accepting the idea that a child's death is ever a "pragmatic necessity". So its still very much on my mind to this day.
ETA: Its also worth noting that just because I make one post focusing on a topic doesnt mean I'm not upset about the "imperial exploitation grinding up hundreds of thousands of kids a year". Honestly, I do speak up about that but sometimes I feel like it goes without saying. I dont understand this frequent idea presented that because you write about one thing, you dont care about the other more important thing.
I certainly don't remember you crying and shitting yourself like this the last time the Israelis bombed Gaza or one of their snipers shot a kid in the head. Wonder what's different now
I don't remember interacting with you online before so I don't see how you could remember what I've done over the last 26 years of my life but okay go off
Yeah, I'm a bit shocked at the other celebrators. I mean I won't say the Israeli settlers and the gov't didn't deserve it, but honestly I'm a bit cautious of doing that...
happy there had finally been any kind of response to the regular killings of Palestinian civilians
What is there to be happy about? When this is over we'll return to the regular scheduled sporadic killing of Palestinian civilians, but in the meantime we're going to be inundated in a wholesale slaughter of Palestinian civilians, with some Israeli citizens thrown in as well. That's the material consequences of the current uprising, which are universally bad.
natives shouldn't fight against their oppressors, because their opressors will opress them
I didn't say anything remotely like that. If you care about actually ending the oppresion, nominally your strategic goals should be ending that oppression, not doomed violence for it's own sake. We even have a word for this on the left: 'adventurism'. The Viet Minh opposition to the French may have been violent, but it wasn't a fruitless and doomed affair, and their leadership went to incredible lengths to make sure their attacks where strategically fruitful.
what are do you people want Palestine to do?
Uhh not this, because it won't achieve any of their political aims and is just going to get a bunch of civilians killed. I don't need to posit a better idea to point out how much of a shit-sandwich that this is going to be for the Palestinians and that leftists shouldn't be treating it like their team scoring a goal in a football match.
On the flip side, can you point to why this is a good thing to be happy about from a material perspective, and not a vibes based 'psychological' victory?
If I was a civilian benefiting from and supporting an apartheid regime, it would be very tragic for the brutal savages we keep locked up in a city sized cage to escape and kill me.
Quick question though, if Israel's gov't was gone and replaced, would it be better to name it "Palestine" or "Israel-Palestine" to be more inclusive, like how Rhodesia was once temporarily "Zimbabwe-Rhodesia"... ?
I can only come to the same conclusion. Its one thing to attack a military checkpoint directly on the border with your territory, heck it's even another thing to occupy the territory of your oppressors, but I don't see how anyone can excuse going out of your way to target random civilians in their homes or to shoot at any moving human you can see.
Its one thing to attack a military checkpoint directly on the border with your territory
The palestinians do not have territory. They do not have borders to defend nor any standing as human beings before the regime in Tel Aviv. They live in open air concentration camps under permanent blockade of water, supplies and electricty. It's not surprising that you enjoy misrepresenting the conflict given that your only recourse so far has been a knee jerk reaction to anyone who even so much smells as pro palestinian.
'rooting for the underdog in a war' is a rather inhuman way of putting it. this isn't a sports game. this is a reaction to a monstrous apartheid regime.
Yes, you're the one acting like with levity towards every murdered palestinian in this decades long american-israeli war of extermination.
'what am i to say to this injured occupier family i've seen in every news media around the world?' 'oh no the minorities will be really genocided now they shouldn't have reacted!' 'what will they tell that poor occupation soldier's family?? this will only make them more vengeful!'. gaslight after gaslight. we've heard it all before. from ireland to pretoria.
The Israelis have the power to end the political and economic conditions (which they created and maintain) which lead to violence
The Palestinians do not
If you're saddened or angered by the deaths of Israeli civilians, you can take those complaints straight to the Israeli government. Any handwringing about violence committed by the Palestinians is de facto support for the illegal occupation of Palestinian land and the apartheid state of Israel.
Is it hand-wringing to feel upset at civilians being taken hostage? Tell me why I should look an 8-year old Israeli kid in the eye and tell them they deserve what's coming to them
I think it doesn’t help to turn the focal core of what you’re upset with to that, in this moment. Yeah, it sucks. But tell me why I should look a Palestinian 8-year old in the eye and tell them their parents deserved to be tortured and killed. A tiger is backed into a corner and stabbed repeatedly, and swipes out with its claws — if you’re unhappy with who it hits, let’s root for the tiger to liberate itself so there isn’t a need for any swiping. And let’s also be upset with the assholes who would put their children in the way of a cornered tiger as a means of controlling it
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The Israelis could have fucked off back home any fucking time
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This is a hilarious argument if you apply to other places.
"What were the children of American colonists meant to do? They've never lived anywhere else."
"What were the children of white South African colonists meant to do? They've never lived anywhere else."
"What were the children of Australian colonists meant to do? They've never lived anywhere else."
Find me the indigenous activists calling for the forced relocation of all white people back to Europe
The idea that dismantling systems of oppression means doesn't mean that white people will be forced back to Europe, what are you talking about?
You don’t know much about decolonization movements, do you?
What the fuck? Israel is moving settlers from Israel and other parts of the world into the West Bank with the explicit purpose of genociding the Palestinian people. Israel goes into the West Bank, rips Palestinians out of their homes, demolishes them, and moves settlers into new buildings. This is happening in 2023.
No investigation, no right to speak.
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Resist their government which continuously expands settlements into Palestinian territory and commits genocide.
What does that have to do with being forcibly relocated to countries that won't even take them? And what about the ones that dobresir their government? Should they be allowed to stay? Would some future Palestinian court be set up to determine that?
Israelis are like Canadians or Americans in terms of how they relate to global hierarchies and oppression. I would wager that's what most Hexbear users are as well.
Generally speaking, as far as I'm aware, most leftists advocate for a Truth and Reconciliation type situation in post-liberation Palestine yes.
The point is that this is all the fault of the Israeli government. What should the Palestinians do?
?
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If the civilians are lucky, their captors are more humane than the average settler.
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Not in the least what I said, but if you need a reason, it's a pretty funny thing to go around doing
Yeah so funny to tell a child they deserved to be hurt
Yes, imagining you going around and telling random Israeli children that is quite funny to me
Man you would be crying about the Romanov children halfway through the Russian civil war. Shut the fuck up
I mean, I consider the killing of the Romanov children to be a tragic necessity at best, And someone recently argued to me that it wasn't even actually necessary. And also while I was searching for that post I was reminded that someone else told me that there was no evidence of an order from the higher ups to kill the kids.
Like, I completely agree that revolutions are messy and that we can't condemn them for excesses and errors, and that the scope of the amount of children killed by the forces they are fighting against are much higher and deserve our tears much more.
But at the end of the day, Alexei was 13, unequivocably a child, and with no administrative power as well. Applying some sort of collective guilt to him for the crimes of his father/dynasty is not materialist. Ideally, if the Civil War situation hadn't forced their hand, he would have been Puyi'd instead.
Like the person you're replying to here is being a concern troll asshole but on a base level I don't think concern for the murder of children is a bad thing. Like I think being able to say "wow, a child died, that sucks" proves that you are still human. I'm not sure I want to fight a revolution on the side of people who don't retain the idea that killing children is something to be avoided as much as possible.
In the case of this conflict, it absolutely needs to be acknowledged that the rage for the death of these children should be set at the feet of the colonizers themselves, not the people resisting them, to be clear. But I can't agree with the implication that I can't be sad at all about kids dying. Kids are my life. I work with them professionally and they are the primary thing I care about in the world. Any child's death is going to get to me on some level. Absolutely I should put their deaths in context and look at the bigger picture, and put the fault for their deaths at the right person. But that doesn't mean the base emotion of "I am sad a child died" is wrong.
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I literally acknowledged that perspective is important like three times in those paragraphs. Sorry I have a bit of an autistic fixation on this. I get it. The victims of the Tsars deserve our tears more than Alexei does. I literally said that already. But idk any mention of the Romanov deaths is going to trigger a response from be because its a fixation. It was one of the things I struggled with for the longest time because of my difficulty accepting the idea that a child's death is ever a "pragmatic necessity". So its still very much on my mind to this day.
ETA: Its also worth noting that just because I make one post focusing on a topic doesnt mean I'm not upset about the "imperial exploitation grinding up hundreds of thousands of kids a year". Honestly, I do speak up about that but sometimes I feel like it goes without saying. I dont understand this frequent idea presented that because you write about one thing, you dont care about the other more important thing.
"Your parents sacrificed you to their blood machine."
Well would do you say to her, asshole?
Won’t someone think of the colonizers?
because 8 year old Palestinians are murdered constantly, this isnt a difficult moral situatuation
Yes
How is that any different?
There is no such thing as an Israeli civilian. All settlers are valid targets.
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Its optional.
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I certainly don't remember you crying and shitting yourself like this the last time the Israelis bombed Gaza or one of their snipers shot a kid in the head. Wonder what's different now
I don't remember interacting with you online before so I don't see how you could remember what I've done over the last 26 years of my life but okay go off
Yes if you don’t support revolutionary violence against oppressors you de facto support oppressors. It’s pretty simple
Yeah, I'm a bit shocked at the other celebrators. I mean I won't say the Israeli settlers and the gov't didn't deserve it, but honestly I'm a bit cautious of doing that...
Palestinians themselves are celebrating. It’s only westoids concern trolling
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That's not true at all.
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What is there to be happy about? When this is over we'll return to the regular scheduled sporadic killing of Palestinian civilians, but in the meantime we're going to be inundated in a wholesale slaughter of Palestinian civilians, with some Israeli citizens thrown in as well. That's the material consequences of the current uprising, which are universally bad.
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I didn't say anything remotely like that. If you care about actually ending the oppresion, nominally your strategic goals should be ending that oppression, not doomed violence for it's own sake. We even have a word for this on the left: 'adventurism'. The Viet Minh opposition to the French may have been violent, but it wasn't a fruitless and doomed affair, and their leadership went to incredible lengths to make sure their attacks where strategically fruitful.
Uhh not this, because it won't achieve any of their political aims and is just going to get a bunch of civilians killed. I don't need to posit a better idea to point out how much of a shit-sandwich that this is going to be for the Palestinians and that leftists shouldn't be treating it like their team scoring a goal in a football match.
On the flip side, can you point to why this is a good thing to be happy about from a material perspective, and not a vibes based 'psychological' victory?
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If I was a civilian benefiting from and supporting an apartheid regime, it would be very tragic for the brutal savages we keep locked up in a city sized cage to escape and kill me.
No, only the dead Jews/Communists/Slavs/Roma/Disabled/ are a tragedy, the Germans deserve whatever they get because they aren't people
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yeah how about you prove it if you're going to accuse people here of being bloodthirsty monsters? "c'mon man" isn't very compelling
none at all.
Prove it or shove it.
Why are you taking this moment to start up your little civility lib crusade against hexbears? Seriously shut the fuck up
Literally no one here would be disappointed at that.
Way to build up a strawman of hexbear, what's your problem?
these accusations are unhinged.
lol lmao even - new site tagline please mods
Quick question though, if Israel's gov't was gone and replaced, would it be better to name it "Palestine" or "Israel-Palestine" to be more inclusive, like how Rhodesia was once temporarily "Zimbabwe-Rhodesia"... ?
Palestine.
people's republic of the levant
But it doesn't include Lebanon yet, doesn't it, let alone Jordan, or Syria? So, what would you call it at the moment...
US of A doesn't include most of the Americas (on paper), the Democratic People's Republic of Korea only includes half the Korean peninsula.
Fair enough...
I think a lot of people here would say Palestine because they are imagining an outcome without any Jewish people still living there.
Jewish people lived in Palestine before Israel was created
The strawest of mans ever conceived! Wowza!
Fuck off with this projection shit
Guess what! Palestinian Jews are also treated as second class citizens under Zionism!
Pretending that Zionism is equivalent to being Jewish is antisemitism.
Nah
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I can only come to the same conclusion. Its one thing to attack a military checkpoint directly on the border with your territory, heck it's even another thing to occupy the territory of your oppressors, but I don't see how anyone can excuse going out of your way to target random civilians in their homes or to shoot at any moving human you can see.
The palestinians do not have territory. They do not have borders to defend nor any standing as human beings before the regime in Tel Aviv. They live in open air concentration camps under permanent blockade of water, supplies and electricty. It's not surprising that you enjoy misrepresenting the conflict given that your only recourse so far has been a knee jerk reaction to anyone who even so much smells as pro palestinian.
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'rooting for the underdog in a war' is a rather inhuman way of putting it. this isn't a sports game. this is a reaction to a monstrous apartheid regime.
I'm not the one acting like every injured Israeli is a point towards Palestinian liberation
Yes, you're the one acting like with levity towards every murdered palestinian in this decades long american-israeli war of extermination.
'what am i to say to this injured occupier family i've seen in every news media around the world?' 'oh no the minorities will be really genocided now they shouldn't have reacted!' 'what will they tell that poor occupation soldier's family?? this will only make them more vengeful!'. gaslight after gaslight. we've heard it all before. from ireland to pretoria.
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you're never going to get me to care about dead colonizers
REAL