One of these cultures has normalised vegan and vegetarianism for centuries, the other is trying to wean a meat-obsessed population.
They are not the same thing, nor do they have the same requirements to reach their end goals
How prevalent is veganism in India? Whenever I look at Indian food, it's butter this and milk that. Sure, there are some very good vegan choices, but it seems to me that Indians love their dairy.
Veganism is actually a fairly new phenomenon in general, a lot of Jains in particular have adopted it. But vegetarianism in India dates back over a thousand years BCE , so yeah, they've got a bit of a head start.
Vegetarian? Yes. Vegan? No.
I am a vegetarian. I eat dairy. I don't eat meat and eggs.
9% of the population apparently, the highest in the world tied with Mexico.
Quite popular, in my city it's quite hard to find meat in the popular restaurants. And these places are quite old and we'll know.
Most foods don't have any form or trace of meat or eggs, although milk and related items are very widely consumed.
It's vegetarian and not vegan.
One of these cultures has normalised vegan and vegetarianism for centuries, the other is trying to wean a meat-obsessed population
As someone who works in a grocery store, the worst fucking people are the ones who go up to the deli counter and yell at the clerks, demanding the "bloodiest* roast beef they've got. That or the spiciest turkey, or whatever.
Dudes who's entire sense of self is invested in eating meat. Easily the most annoying kind of guy I encounter in my daily life.
That and the 'for every animal you don't eat i'm gonna eat THREE!' Yay well done so macho you get threatened by what another person eats fucking yay for you sir gold star.
which would be fine if it were just a straight comparison but it starts bleating about chemicals and preservatives and it's a bit too purity politicking for my tastes.
May americans find out how to not die eating
I get that it's a meme, but what's the problem? I'm vegetarian/flirt with veganism; it's purely for moral/ethical/environmental reasons.
Indian food is delicious. An Impossible burger on a pretzel bun dripping with grilled onions, avocado, vegan aioli and mustard with a side of steak fries? That's also delicious, in my opinion.
Meat is delicious, and that's not at all incompatible with my reasoning for being vegetarian.
Yeah, it seems that "your meme is kinda gatekeepy" is a pretty good way to start some "spirited discussions."
Hexbear has had the veganism struggle session boiling since federation.
It's objectively the correct moral position and if you can't at least admit that you're a baby. There is no debate. Just a bunch of people whining about how much they dun wanna and look what you made me do by saying I was wrong.
I was making a statement, not inviting your opinion.
Well that's when you say something out loud in the room you're in instead of saying it on the internet
please do go on, maybe youll get me to care about dead farm animals on the way
did the english comprehension fail for a bit or are you trying to be silly
'the' english comprehension, is it?
I called out each and every reactionary in this thread for exactly how they behave without fail and without fail you pulled the exact same shit I said you would. "Oh, you're going to tell me what I'm doing is wrong? Well now I'm going to do it more!"
Baby brain.
I referred to it in a way where 'the' could work in the sentence. And even so, doesn't seem anything will help you actually know what i'm actually saying.
I never said I was going to do it more?
Im sorry for not being the cookie cutter reactionary you get to 'dunk on', stop making a bonfire out of a matchstick. I agree with vegetarianism in its entirety, and veganism, but I can't be bothered to care about 'morals' that you gave to yourself to look better. There are parts of this ultraism that no animal liberationist or whatever have ever given a real answer to. Its pure ideology.
And even so, doesn't seem anything will help you actually know what i'm actually saying.
oh please do go on. Maybe you'll make me not want to do the bad thing when you tell me not to do the bad thingI never said I was going to do it more?
Im sorry for not being the cookie cutter reactionary
Yes you are. I described exactly what you are and you are exactly what I described. You did the thing. Stop being a redditor and arguing about it. Self crit or shut the fuck up. Stop turning the argument about murdering, torturing and raping 100's of millions of animals a year into "how dare you say something about me that I carefully worded my bullshit to avoid accountability for"
Like I'm supposed to not call someone a white supremacist because they studiously avoid saying the n-word in that moment.
oh please do go on. Maybe you'll make me not want to do the bad thing when you tell me not to do the bad thing
Huh? Im not even concern trolling I don't understand how you could get to this.
I never said I was going to do it more?
The Hexbear tendency to post emojis instead of a response strikes again.
Yes you are. I described exactly what you are and you are exactly what I described. You did the thing. Stop being a redditor and arguing about it. Self crit or shut the fuck up.
What?
what thing?
cite where I did the thing? You were talking about how im going to keep doing it, but I never said I had a carnist diet. Mine is vegetarian. Its really fuckin funny you just go for the low effort 'owns'.
god why am I fine one second but now a terrible reactionary for fuckin food all of a sudden. Its silly, really. I started with a little non-confrontationist comment and you proceeded to go all 'holier-than-thou' like some twitter lib.
I self crit, conceded, but am unconvinced on some of the finer points. I agree with the ending of meat culture and transitioning to a vegan society, take that and go, leave the silly fake morality behind. Ya really give the "hate the hillbillies for their savagery" vibe lol.
god why am I fine one second but now a terrible reactionary for fuckin food all of a sudden
The part where you react to someone criticizing you for your actions and beliefs by doubling down on them and sneering at the criticism in the first place as illegitimate. That thing.
You were talking about how im going to keep doing it, but I never said I had a carnist diet.
"GOOD LUCK GETTING PEOPLE TO STOP THING BY SAYING THING IS BAD LOLOL"
Ya really give the "hate the hillbillies for their savagery" vibe lol.
Just because you have zero ability for self perception doesn't mean that I haven't been citing you doing this shit in every reply I've sent. Every single one.
The Hexbear tendency to post emojis instead of a response strikes again.
And speaking of fucking reading comprehension. I gave you the emojis but I also gave you a paragraph saying why. I can't deal with your level of bullshit right now.
GO BACK TO REDDIT
thanks wow i guess being on hexbear for 1 year and lemmygrad on 2 doesn't matter when im so morally repugnant, please enlighten such a poor infidel, maybe your words can give me salvation.
"GOOD LUCK GETTING PEOPLE TO STOP THING BY SAYING THING IS BAD LOLOL"
never said that. Do I get to say strawman, or did mom say its your turn on the funny words.
Just because you have zero ability for self perception doesn't mean that I haven't been citing you doing this shit in every reply I've sent. Every single one.
make an enemy out of me all you want, still doesn't manifest it into reality.
I agreed with your opinions, you just decided that it wasn't enough. I got annoyed when you just took a shit trying to explain how 'superior' you were. Quoting and posting an emoji does not an argument make.
The part where you react to someone criticizing you for your actions and beliefs by doubling down on them and sneering at the criticism in the first place as illegitimate. That thing.
honestly what fuckin actions. Im a vegitarian. Did you assume I was some McDonalds fanatic because I was annoyed with you? You have no 'proof' you're just being an asshole.
honestly what fuckin actions
I'm so fucking sick of explicitly telling you what my problem is and then you pretending to not to have heard it so you can be mockingly obtuse like this. I'm so fucking sick of quoting you saying a thing and then you getting pissed off at me for accusing you of 'thing' without saying what 'thing' was. I'm so fucking sick of you being an asshole and then pulling the mock victim shit like I'm supposed to be fucking evil and unreasonable because I point out an offense.
Did you assume I was some McDonalds fanatic because I was annoyed with you?
No. I fucking quoted you and referenced your point every fucking time I opened my fucking mouth. I'm done. I don't give a fucking shit what you profess to be. I care what you fucking said in the first place. I'm not spying on you in your home. I'm responding to you on a forum.
No. I fucking quoted you and referenced your point every fucking time I opened my fucking mouth. I'm done. I don't give a fucking shit what you profess to be. I care what you fucking said in the first place. I'm not spying on you in your home. I'm responding to you on a forum.
what you were doing is quoting me and then jumping to conclusions, don't act like you're special. like where did that last sentence even come from? Im completely genuine in my confusion on how the hell you got there. What does spying have anything to do with assuming things about me?
I'm so fucking sick of explicitly telling you what my problem is and then you pretending to not to have heard it so you can be mockingly obtuse like this. I'm so fucking sick of quoting you saying a thing and then you getting pissed off at me for accusing you of 'thing' without saying what 'thing' was. I'm so fucking sick of you being an asshole and then pulling the mock victim shit like I'm supposed to be fucking evil and unreasonable because I point out an offense.
Oh I heard your points, its the fact that they weren't grounded in reality that I had a problem with. Get over your fucking self. Saying what 'thing' was? You're the one who fucking brought it up?! Are you fucking kidding me? all you said was "Oh, you're going to tell me what I'm doing is wrong? Well now I'm going to do it more!" in different ways like some fucking mantra. Please actually have a cohesive argument and not be depending on your righteous indignation to get you through the argument. its like dealing with a fucking toddler.
Who was the one who went on some unwanted rant after a one and done statement. All I said is that the struggle session has been brewing, then you had to shit your manifesto all over my salad.
okay unreasonable? yeah. Evil? no. You really want to talk about doing the mock victim routine, because pulling shit out of your ass to get some sympathy seems to be a textbook version of that. Also again, what fucking offense? Did I condemn veganism? Did I side with carnism? Did I do anything besides not care about your ultraism? Get over yourself.
you fucking modified the goddamn comment?! What the fuck?
Are you seriously being this fucking dogshit about something barely worth discussing? Fuck off, who cares!
at least learn how to gaslight someone correctly, you modified the comment after I posted you fucking freak
For real. I was raised on slop, now that I'm a vegetarian, it doesn't mean I don't like the foods I grew up eating.
I guess the point is that we don't need to rely on expensive substitutes made by the same corps that own slaughterhouses to make tasty, nutritious vegan food
Nothing against people who prefer meat substitutes. But I do think they should be brave and just abandon meat altogether. If you keep relying on meat substitutes, you haven't let go of meat entirely, I found it easy to get back to meat eating.
You're chatting out your ass, this is like saying lesbians shouldn't use dildos in case they go back to fucking men
Complete ignorance of the thing you're talking about
That is not at all what this is like, completely ignorant metaphor
Imagine someone addicted to eating their poop. Perhaps they are reforming their ways, and for some time they take half measures like eating smelly chili. Eventually they realize their unhealthy fixation isn't really overcome by this, so they move onto food that doesn't resemble poop, like a salad maybe
No, their metaphor was not ignorant at all.
Animal products have good taste for most people. The issue with them is not their taste, or the actual act of consumption of them, it's the fact that their production necessarily involves the torture and killing of sapient beings.
If you can have "meat" without such effects (so, those fake vegan "meats"), then there is nothing wrong with it at all (I still prefer most of the time my rice, beans, tofu and TSP if only due to the cost but again, nothing wrong with it, quite the contrary).
No, their metaphor was not ignorant at all.
I was half-joking, but yes it was ignorant? Lesbians don't choose their sexuality, but people do choose to be vegan. There is an ignorance of sexuality and diet there. Also, people do try going vegan, eat some fake meat and cheese, and eventually go back to eating meat because they still crave meat in itself. This does happen. This is also related to those people who sneak in or revert to eating meat because of some cultural or family tradition, or peer pressure from friends. One vegan I knew who was going on for 25 years ate a steak to impress his business friends instead of speaking up to say he didn't want to eat at a meat-only restaurant. Take a look at my other comments here, I am speaking about this topic at the social level, not how individuals like the taste of meat or fake meat.
there is nothing wrong with it at all
Yeah I know, I have been saying that. This is not a moral argument. This is a rational one, and one perhaps from a medical or public health perspective: the cultural desire to obtain "meat" as a thing in itself is the cause for the demand of meat or meat alternatives. It's great that under capitalism that solutions can be provided via the market and supply-and-demand, whatever, but it doesn't address the reason why there is a demand in the first place.
How I know it's a cultivated desire: it doesn't exist across cultures. Hell it doesn't exist within the western fake meat market itself: how much fake seafood do you see engineered out there? Or exotic meats ie objects perfectly engineered to mimic dog, cat, or even human meat? I'm sure human taste buds can enjoy long pork, real or fake. Yet basically no one is asking for this right?
how much fake seafood do you see engineered out there?
Crab sticks are usually fake, but generally, fish is harder to immigrate accurately than other meats, and there's less demand for it since people in the west don't generally eat tons of fish anyway.
Less demand for real fish means less demand for imitation fish, though there is apparently a company somewhere making lab grown salmon and tuna.
Bravery has nothing to do with it. It tastes good, and there's no harm to any animals. So why not eat it? Denial for the sake of denial is not a virtue.
If you keep relying on meat substitutes, you haven't let go of meat entirely, and it would be easy to get back to meat eating.
That's like saying that if you enjoy shooting people in video games, then you're one step away from shooting people in real life. I've been eating fake meats for almost a decade now, and I've never been tempted to eat real meat.
I know how horrible and senseless factory farming is, and I have images of the slaughtered seared into my memory from vegan documentaries. Why would I go back to that when I can have substitutes that are just as good, if not better?
I can't really answer the question of why, but the sample set of people I know who switch to vegetarianism and veganism bears out that the ones who rely in fake meats much more frequently switch back than those who focus on learning to cook foods that don't imitate meat.
On the counterargument, I did miss cheese quite a bit, and learning to culture my own vegan cheeses hasn't led to buying animal milk cheeses again, so ymmv
Good job but not everyone has the mental fortitude you have displayed. I know plenty of people who tried going vegan, ate the fake meat and egg stuff, and just went back to the real stuff for the taste
Anyways it's not about the individual level, it's more the social ie the social ingraining to have the form and experience of meat contributes to the "culture" and demand of meat
The fake stuff (and cultivated meat for that matter) are getting closer to parity every year. You don't go back to something "for the taste", if the alternative you switched to offers a near identical experience.
Okay but we aren't there yet and the vegans who I know who have broken their mental attachment to this meat "culture" have not even been tempted to go back once compared to those others
Do you think that you could've gotten those people converted to an Indian diet, and they would've remained vegan? Getting people to go vegan in the first place is extremely difficult. Try getting them to go vegan and replace their diet with Indian food.
Yeah, if they were Indian. The culture around meat is different than in the West eg. some people only eat meat on a certain day or weekend. Even then, the approach is that meat is disgusting and needs to be cooked and spiced thoroughly before consuming anyhow. And there is already a long and popular tradition of simple alternatives to meat dishes like using potatoes or paneer (or "soy paneer" aka tofu to make it vegan)
Again, my point is that it is not about the individual but the social ingraining and pressure around meat as a category in itself for individuals
Meat is generally spiced more heavily in warm climates because it spoils faster and hot spices both preserves meat by killing bacteria and disguise a certain degree of spoilage.
I would be surprised if the trend towards hot spices in a country that is generally both warm and humid is because of a difference in palette rather than the reasons above.
it would be easy to get back to meat eating
If it would "be easy" for you to get back to consuming animal products, it's hard to imagine you're vegan at all.
Being called stupid and criticizing my decisions kept me from "being brave"
Like "You're not good enough until you are this much" bullshit. If that's the attitude, then fuck no. Why do I wanna go even further into things if y'all are assholes right off the bat. Like, no. fuck you. If it's this complicated then I am going to do what has been a life of hassle free eating. My guilt is very easily wiped away like that.
I'd argue that the fake meat stuff has hurt veganism to at least some extent because it's marketed so heavily and people think it's the only way to eat vegan. You can see how prominent the ”all vegan food is processed” and ”it's too expensive to be vegan” arguments have become, even in this thread.
The problem is that you're still fixated on the form and experience of meat. A full mindset change is more robust.
It's like how fake leather can help replace and reduce real leather usage, but if the trend of desiring leather died out in the first place, the whole problem is dropped altogether
I don't want to stop eating meat, I want to stop the exploitation and suffering of animals.
While I want to stop the exploitation of animals more than I want to eat meat, if there is a path that allows me to do both, I will have a preference for that path.
The same goes for leather. It's use isn't worth what has to be done to create it, but it is a fantastic material with a lot of versatility that's better than near all alternatives in plenty of applications. Fake leather and synthetic leather are wonderful innovations because we can enjoy the benefits without the negatives, and that's something to be encouraged rather than avoided.
I get it but this is an emotional appeal. I'm just trying to explain the logic of what was being said here
I like the fake meat stuff too, and often try to make it myself even though I've never had meat on purpose in my life and actually throw up if I do accidentally. I just like the kitchen chemistry aspect of it I guess
I'm not saying we should stop making vegan alternatives to meat. I'm saying people should stop desiring meat or meat alternatives. Because logically that desire of meat is the cause of both meat and meat alternatives. Like how the cure to nicotine addiction isn't nicotine patches alone
not entirely, as leather is still a wildly useful fabric and material for many uses which synthetic leather can serve(to a greater or lesser extent, granted), but only in specific cases can meat not be replaced/not replaced effectively
when I went vegan, I started eating practically exclusively Indian food. dal, chana masala, aloo gobi, so many delicious foods.
Most veg Indian food has dairy added tho. Avoiding ghee is like going through an obstacle course of nice aunties and uncles trying to feed you. And don't even get me started on curd.
Indian vegans also often use substitutes. I'm for vegan food unity: don't harm and exploit animals and I support you.
How is the dairy industry in India? I would assume it is nowhere near as cruel as it is in the West, where sadistic practices are incorporated at every stage of the process in the name of efficiency.
CW: how the dairy/meat industry works.
It's basically the same. The driving factor of mass death in the dairy industry is that to make cows produce milk they've gotta get pregnant and calf, so you end up with a bunch of cows that are too old to produce enough milk for market and a big of calves that won't produce milk, ever.
In the West, those "extra", "non-productive" animals get killed (the dairy industry is the meat industry). In India, this is still often the case as not everyone is veg and not everyone who's non-veg avoids beef. But there are enough people that refuse beef for there to be an impetus to follow a "traditional" alternative: you kick the animal out of the dairy for it to fend for itself. In reality, they tend to just starve to death over a long period of time.
For there to be dairy without a culling there would need to be like 30 pet cows for every 1 dairy cow. Assuming the cost of raising the cow is what people pay for, that would mean milk costing 10X more.
My dumb ass assuming India's culture of reverence for cows would lead to slightly better treatment for them but forgetting that capitalism will always demand the most profitable option.Dairy was an important part of many foodstuffs, its gonna take a bit to move away from that
A lot of Indian cooking is vegetarian, not vegan. Ghee is very often used.
Yea there are probably more vegans in Europe than in India
I saw a middle-eastern cookbook and was reminded of how vegetarian food is pretty solid everywhere outside of many parts of the Anglosphere. Even then, the stuff is there but it's not really given the thought it deserves.
White people are afraid of spices, they activate their yakubian self destruct instincts
They invaded the entire world for spices yet decided they like none of them
Not afraid, they just don't like spices that smell and so would prefer them to attack
That or they are just not creative
"Fake meat" is a broad term that can be more or less "processed" depending on your preferences. I made some teriyaki seitan last night that was basically high-protein bread with herbs and spices.
https://www.myplantifulcooking.com/meaty-vegan-seitan-chicken/#recipe
No animals were harmed except for the ones Impossible tested on.
btw.wait they tested on animals for a vegan burger?
that seems counterproductive, but classic fast food moment lol.
They did https://www.greenmatters.com/p/does-impossible-foods-test-on-animals
Lots of apologists of the ”DoN't LeT PeRfEcT Be ThE EnEmY Of GoOd” kind out there arguing that this doesn't mean they're not vegan, though.
Liberals don't have political theory, they have quotes they throw around but don't understand, lol.
I though ending animal exploitation was like the whole thing of animal liberationists, this doesn't seem to be that. Thanks for the article.
I'm vegan for a while now and live in Europe. In the past, vegan options were creative and often good and now it's this fake meat all over. I wish I lived closer to India then to America
My only problem with Indian food. Whenever I try a restaurants it's shit. But when my coworkers would bring in a feast on Diwali, it was my favorite time of year.
I can't find any restaurants that taste even similar to their home cooked meals.
That's my experience as well. The food my Pakistani friend cooks is amazing but when I order the same thing at a restaurant it looks delicious but it tastes like poking your tongue out the window. I guess restaurants has to cater to western palates to make money and many westoids have very low spice tolerance.
Think this post confuses veganism and vegetarianism. Also it's chemicals all the way down. Those spices? Made of chemicals.
Those alternative burgers are actually pretty tasty but also very heavy because they are imitating beef. For American fare I'd generally prefer a sandwich with deli style meats made out of tofu or seitan, or a bean burger.
You mean to say scientists don't sit in a circle and summon the "Chemicals" from the lower tiers of hell?
When people complain about vegan diets lacking in x, y, or z I always point out that our diets are culturally balanced, as well as being balanced by the addition of vitamins to staple foods. If we all became deficient in say, iron, we would start fortifying iron in our water, flour, salt, rice etc, while at the same time we would culturally move towards eating more black beans and spinach than we currently do. When an individual removes a food group from their diet, it's only reasonable that you will have to intentionally rebalance your diet in other places. This isn't a deficiency inherent in a vegan diet.
If you have to supplement a vitamin or mineral that's just part of your diet, so don't @ me with your natural=good nonsense.
The only thing vegans need to supplement with is B12. Everything else can be had from a balanced diet.
Nooch does not contain B12. It is sometimes added to it, perhaps even often in the US ? but in the EU for example I've never ever seen B12-fortified nooch.
Oh really? I didn't know they made it without. I just checked mine and it says it has >100% of all the b complex vitamins in a serving (2 tbsp). I do live in the US but I got mine online.
Don't forget Monster energy drinks! /s sort of. I take a supplement though lol
Yeah I wasn't kidding, I tried mango curry before and it's awesome. Also this interface doesn't show downvotes.
I love Mangalore foods. I'm a big fan. I need to explore local dishes next time I'm there
I don't eat a lot of meat, but after hearing arguments like these from vegetarians and vegans, I gave up on not eating meat.
Too expensive to eat vegan and I got really fucking tired of being called fucking stupid for buying meat free alternatives. It's not worth the effort in the end.
vegan food isn't expensive. artificial meat replacements are expensive, because you're paying someone to chemically torture plants until they vaguely remind you of animals. lentils, beans, and other awesome-tasting protein sources are dirt cheap. vegan-first dishes are great and really cheap.
See, it's arrogant, and stupid shit like this that makes me wanna go get a burger just to spite ya.
"Oh fucking no!! I am torturing plants and shit blah blah blah"
No fucking wonder.
Ignoring the obvious joke you missed. If someone being a little rude is enough to make you completely give up on your ethical/moral stance, you need to grow a spine dude .
If a gay person is an ass to me i dont decide to become homophobic and blame it on them.
veganism is a choice, being gay isn't. Is this the best comparison?
Okay how about this.
A person who says murder is bad is also mean to me, does that mean i get to murder people and blame them?
The point is the idea that you can do something unethical or completely abandon your morals because an advocate of it was kinda annoying to you is insane
I won't go near the comparison to one's sexual preference, to another voluntary dietary habits.
But, you're not wrong. If this was something that was super important to me and life affecting, then you are completely right.
Now, as someone who is just trying to not eat meat for personal and whatever reasons, that's not how you get people into your cause. I am not bound to it, and the perception of the community is something i get to have liberty with.
How about "well, it's not an animal. not bad". Not being me with my kid hearing that her favorite burger patty (the impossible one) is a waste of money and an embarrassment to the real vegans in the middle of the safeway by a random asshole stranger, who had the after thought to explain how tofu is better totally not noticing that his very life is in danger.
In fairness, it's really easy to act like a badass in front of...am I reading that right, some hypothetical guy in Costco who told his daughter she's not a real vegan?
I didn't act or anything. I just stood there much like here watching the entitled dietary moron go off.
But I was really annoyed so like the imaginary cool vegan, it was more contexts. But good notes. It was Safeway. No wonder yall are not taken seriously.
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Once again, because it's come up so many times in this thread, not at all vegan, definitely omnivorous, just not someone who assumes their membership in the majority defines them as a victim unlike the coward Wage_slave@lemmy.ml
you know ya'll have the problem of being smug assholes while pretending to condemn others for being smug assholes
Being a smug asshole is when you point out that someone considering violence towards a stranger in their internet story is cringe.
There's nothing at all wrong with eating fake meats. i do all the time. Thats not the point i was making
lmao did you just fantasize about threatening a vegan while grocery shopping?
This is not arrogance it's playful language for humorous effect. The real reason to not eat fake meat is that it usually doesn't taste very good no matter how you prepare it, whereas traditional vegan food can be amazing
woah its expensive in different places, must mean the average person everywhere is still able to buy it in the expensive areas!
those sound delicious tho
