...So you pick up a history book to figure out US's angle
From Peter Dale Scotts: American War Machine-Deep Politics, The Cia and the Global Drug Connection, and the Road to Afghanistan
TL:DR the US turned Burma-Laos and Thailand into a heroin growing triangle (The Golden Triangle) much like they did with the Mafia in Sicily and Marseilles.
The Drug traffickers and drug money became a huge way of CIA to implant bourgeois ideology and suppress communists and the growing popularity of the PRC. They even used ex-Nazis as agents for drug smuggling. It also gave US unfettered access to Myanmars tungsten reserves.
This enitre coalition was directed at China of course.
Every 👏 "Pro democracy" 👏 movement 👏 is 👏 a 👏CIA 👏 front
From a previous comment I posted on Thai protests
Who is coopting the protests?
2 virulently antiChinese billionaires tied to Wallstreet finance and the Cia (Ned)
Thaksin was part of the Carlyle group and Prime Minister of Thailand in early 00s where he sent Thai troops to Iraq to please US master and set up black site cia torture camps
Why?
Because Thailand is shifting rapidly into Chinas sphere of influence. In this light we should view the contradiction mostly in the light of US imperialism wanting to contain China and keep its US military bases and black site torture camps in Thailand
Who is leading the protests?
Thai Lawyers for Human Rights which is a Cia funded organisation. Of course they would be as their name gave me a fuzzy feeling
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Fgw5PX5Y0Ds/Xz1ayUSjEuI/AAAAAAAATmY/0AW-PiXddKQmEWPOQU43Tkq4hgT6vrLsACNcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Quote_StudentProtesters_Unquote.jpg
Assembly of the Poor, claiming to represent Thailands rural poor is also Cia funded and their listed as a member of Neds website
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-z3zv9XaARpQ/X0Hl2S9soFI/AAAAAAAATrI/ybAmSMbO8SsJGmEsyji228IHKT117UFVQCNcBGAsYHQ/s1600/AOP_YouTube_ThaiPoorAct2.jpeg
The people trying to rewrite the Thai constitution are named The Internet Law Reform Dialogue (iLaw) whos primary source of income is you guessed it Cia (Ned)
https://hexbear.net/post/40588
Yeah I'm aware the guy that writes it is a white Thai nationalist that loves the Thai military
However I don't care. He exposed that those groups are tied to CIA and that's all I do care about and those groups are listed on NEDs website and I don't care what his motives for doing so were (being a pro Thai rightist or Monarchist or being an anarchist or communist makes little difference)
So while the US embassy denies NED is funding them....They're on NEDs website
Here's a second source on it
https://altthainews.blogspot.com/2020/09/us-embassy-denies-funding-thai-protests.html?m=1
The source I'm concerned with is the fact NED listed them on their website
So they're still funded by NED/CIA
https://www.ned.org/region/asia/thailand-2019/
Yeah I'm an OP for pointing out these orgs are on NEDs website
Jesus wept stop replying to me.
It is worth noting that some Hong Kong rioters, including their leader Joshua Wong, have publicly supported Thai anti-government protests. This reminds people of the group photo featuring Wong and Thanathorn Juangroongruangkit, who served as the leader of the Future Forward Party that was dissolved by Thailand's Constitutional Court in February.
The Thai government and mainstream media believe that anti-government forces in the country have colluded with the US and other Western countries to use young people with the ultimate goal to overthrow the current political system in Thailand. Those forces aim to bring in pro-West political proxies to rule the country with Western-styled democracy. It is essentially a "color revolution."
This is in line with the US' general practice. The US manipulated color revolutions in the former Soviet Union, the Middle East, and other countries and regions for its political intentions, leaving many countries in a mess, threatening regional and world peace and stability.
Global Times: Behind-scenes funding of Thailand protests show invisible Western hands
iLaw are on NEDs site
And a Human rights lawyers association is on there and given that CIA runs money through shell companies and shell orgs I wouldn't be surprised if it was just looped through a shell org
Human Rights Lawyers Association
$50,000
To strengthen a network of lawyers engaged in the protection of human rights. Focusing particularly on ending the misuse of laws to perpetuate human rights violations and stifle public participation, the organization will coordinate capacity-building opportunities for young human rights lawyers; undertake strategic litigation; and conduct legal advocacy activities.
Also your allegation that "Assembly of the poor" aren't on there when there's this on NEDs website. Again CIA runs through shell orgs. They've probably changed their name since.
Thai Poor Act
$50,000
To strengthen grassroots activists’ knowledge and practice of democratic principles. The organization will work with network members to facilitate a process to develop a democratic agenda and proposals on key policy issues, which will serve to catalyze inclusive discussions and encourage active citizenship. Activities will include workshops, community consultations, and public seminars.
https://www.ned.org/region/asia/thailand-2019/
You've also not dealt with the 2 billionaires tied to WallStreet: Thanathorn and Thaksin
Thanathorn has been writing shit like this
https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/politics/1550586/thailand-needs-hyperloop-not-china-built-high-speed-rail-thanathorn
and Thaksin was a servile puppet of US by taking Thailand into Iraq then setting up blacksite CIA torture prisons in Thailand.
I don’t have a side on this argument but I do not think a lot of people here realize that NED has money in pretty much everything in the third world, whether they’re direct assets or just vague humanitarianism. I happen to know of a Mexican org that gets legal help to indigenous prisoners who don’t speak Spanish. They get NED funding. It’s not a CIA regime change operation, it has no political pretensions that way. Just like that there’s a billion different things that NED has its hands on. Yes, of course there’s an overall bent towards liberal imperialist bullshit, and it is their job ultimately to secure the US’ sphere of control, but not everything that receives or has received money from NED is owned by the CIA.
They will pay and front orgs that are "good" and "doing good".
But their main purpose is to cultivate assets - to find leaders and people with charisma using these orgs to then use them for US foreign policy ends (either knowingly or unknowingly)
In Mexico you should be paying attention to these bastards as the fact Mexico is flooded with drugs and has seen more death in Mexico than Afghanistan in the recent past is directly tied to US foreign policy destabilising Mexico by weaponising drugs using the CIA and organised crime (Chapter 2 of the book this post is off)
It's almost like you explicitly made that clear in your post and yet this person ignored that for some reason.
They get NED funding. It’s not a CIA regime change operation, it has no political pretensions that way ... not everything that receives or has received money from NED is owned by the CIA.
It sounds like their response was geared towards these comments.
The NED doing missionary work for the CIA does not preclude it from being owned by the CIA, nor does it make that missionary work indifferent to the CIA's objectives.
So, why play dumb? It just seems unnecessarily rude if you know the reason they responded.
I don’t get why you think it’s a response at all when the premise is already a part of my comment.
It is literally what my post was cultivated on! The only reason it makes sense to begin with!
NED has money in pretty much everything in the third world, whether they’re direct assets or just vague humanitarianism ... They get NED funding. It’s not a CIA regime change operation.
Your comment made it sound like these two types of NED operations were distinct from one another. The response highlighted that these are not distinct. It is two features of the same operation.
I found that important to highlight because it matches with the revolving door of state agents & humanitarian operations in my city.
It's not a dig at you or anything, but the clarification was helpful.
Yeah I mean that’s fine, we have different reads on this and maybe I’m not expressing myself very well. To be clear I do not think most of the organizations where NED has money are “NED operations” in and of themselves. They opportunistically and parasitically extends their claws everywhere, yeah, but receiving some NED money (note: some money, not being entirely funded that way) in itself doesn’t tell me that the organization is what the CIA needs them to be.
Whether that’s the case with this specific Thai group, I have no idea, I had never heard of them before this thread and I think it’s fine to be suspicious.
Why drag any of this up when you weren't involved in the first place?
I took your initial comment in good faith, and I told you why I thought their comment was helpful. You decided to double-down on being an ass for some reason.
“blah blah monarchy amazing.” Are we really citing right wing blogs now?
read Marx radlibs
only gets a minority of its funding by the NED.
lol
I need to save this thread.
A year from now it will be more obvious these protests are a US operation with Thaksin Shinawatra at the helm. Radlibs here will pretend that no Leftists ever supported it.
It's always the way
Anarchists supported the fascist/neoliberal uprising in Belarus
A year after the fact and all the information about US funding the protests is out in the open and all these motherfuckers are like "Belarus who? Hong Kong where?"
It'll be the same with Thailand
Yep. Judging by the upvotes, it's clear that ignoring US operations in Thailand is a popular position in this thread.
Supporters of these protests must seriously grappled with the failures of past color revolutions. I don't trust anyone who refuses to learn lessons from Ukraine, Hong Kong, Libya, Syria, etc.
The only Thai communist that I've read who has supported these protests is Giles Ji Ungpakorn. He supported all the color revolutions in the 2010's and has familial ties to Thailand's comprador bourgeoisie.
No communist has provided a method for revolution under the dual pressures of the existing state & the US color revolution complex. I won't hear about them until their revolution succeeds, since they sure as hell won't get tenure from the Rockefeller Foundation.
The only Thai communist that I’ve read who has supported these protests is Giles Ji Ungpakorn
I literally posted multiple times that RT Thailand is an openly communist group. Just because you aren't aware that it exists in the fact of obvious examples.. M
Congrats for quoting reactionaries in Thailand. Would you like to hear leftist local opinions?
Sure. I'll see for myself whether it falls into the bin of actual materialist analysis, or "Marxist" myth-making. There were countless "Marxists" who supported regime change in Hong Kong, Ukraine, Syria, and Libya.
My friend did a podcast with one of the leaders of the student protests. She's full commie and openly critical of libs and billionaires. I'll DM you and anyone that asks for it. It's my friend's podcast, so I'm hesitant to share to openly.
The website "Ugly Truth Thailand" has a good material, Marxist summary of Thailand, although the guy's a Trot. The same guy wrote "A Coup for the Rich", which has a good Marxist summary of recent Thai political history.
Giles Ji Ungpakorn is the one who runs "Ugly Truth Thailand", right?
I'm reading through his history. He has had a horrible track record with identifying US State Department operations in US-enemy states.
Back in September 2019, he called the events in Hong Kong a "grassroots uprising", [1] despite the fact that any materialist would have highlighted Jimmy Lai's media empire pushing propaganda for the movement, and Joshua Wang meetings with thee US State Department.
In 2011, he actually compares his opponents in Thailand to the supporters of the Libyan & Syrian governments, which is a telling admission. [2]
His father, Puey Ungphakorn, was the governor of the Bank of Thailand under Shinawatra. His brother, Jon Ungphakorn, is an NGO executive in Thailand. His mother was an English national, and he received his education at the University of London.
This family seems tied up in the exact imperialist-Left world that I've been criticizing.
I'll listen to your friend's podcast. I'm most interested to hear Thai communists discuss the degree to which the US State Department has infiltrated protest movements in Thailand. That is the question that must be reckoned with to avoid repeating the mistakes in Hong Kong, Ukraine, Libya, Syria, etc.
Also I just read your citations, and you're really pushing the literal meaning of his words. Honestly, lighten up with comrades a bit.
Imagine what people would say if there was an academic conference on Libya co-sponsored by the Gaddafi regime or a conference on Syria sponsored by Bashar al-Assad!
Damn, just imagine if academics attending a conference sponsored Gaddafi or Bash al-Assad! Luckily, he only attends US and UK sponsored conferences.
You must understand why it's hard for me to see trust the son of the top banker in Thailand - whose family is tied up in the same NGO networks that conspired to overthrow the governments in Syria, Libya, Ukraine, and Hong Kong - especially when he has never reckoned with the reality of US regime change through color revolution.
This is extraordinarily important because this thread is discussing whether the protests in Thailand are a color revolution.
You know you can be wrong about a handful of things sometimes, have a capitalist background, and have your analysis be more or less correct. Marx came from a bourgeois background, "Bakunin" said some anti semetic shit back in the day.
I'm not asking you to unquestingly absorb everything that Giles says. God knows I disagree with him on stuff. But for a pretty solid Marxist analysis on Thailand which a non Thai can understand easily, I think he's the best. He's fucking eons ahead of LandDestroyer.
You know you can be wrong about a handful of things sometimes, have a capitalist background
Absolutely.
I’m not asking you to unquestingly absorb everything that Giles says
I'm sure he has done useful academic work. I do not trust him to identify US-sponsored color revolutions. This thread is determining to what degree the Thai protests are a US-sponsored color revolution.
Well by all mean find other Thai Marxists. 0.00% are on the side of LandDestroyer. Is this not obvious??
Well by all mean find other Thai Marxists.
I'm working on it. The Marxist-Leninist party in Thailand (CPT) has been criminalized by both the current government & the previous government, which Giles' family played a central role in.
I'm def very critical of Giles. It's just incredibly weird to be so harsh on him yet take a right wing blog as gospel. Does this not make sense? Why dig deeply into the wording of a communist yet ignore actual lies from a reactionary?? Please don't ignore this one, because I keep needing to ask it.
which Giles’ family played a central role in.
What? Elaborate please.
Where have I taken a Right-wing blog as gospel?
I have stated four facts:
- The NED has invested millions into funding "pro-democracy" groups in Thailand.
- The Nation reported in March 2020 that iLAW in Thailand was created with foreign backing. That article was removed from their website in the past couple months, but I found it on Archive.org.
- Donald Trump's State Department awarded the leading "pro-democracy" figures in Thailand high honors in 2018.
- Brian Berletic (pen name Tony Cartalucci or Land Destroyer) claims that there are sources, which have since been purged from the internet, claiming many of these "pro-democracy" groups can be traced back to the 2014 coup & the US Embassy in Bangkok. I have not dug through Archive.org to proof or disproof these allegations.
I have dug equally deep into Brian and Giles Ji Ungpakorn. The fact you call one a Right-winger and one a communist shouldn't dissuade me from doing my own research.
Brian is a worker, who does industrial design in Bangkok. He also freelance writes on issues in Southeast Asia. [1] I can't find any major government or capital connections for Brian yet.
Giles is an academic, whose family is closely-tied to finance & NGO operations in Thailand. He is the son of a well-decorated comprador bourgeoisie, who was the Bank of Thailand governor & a Member of the Order of the British Empire. [2]
which Giles’ family played a central role in.
I'd recommend scouring the internet for all dissident references to Puey Ungphakorn & Jon Ungphakorn. The language barrier makes this difficult, since the writings are primarily from US expats (like Brian) or compradors (like Giles).
As far as I can see, the whole thing is the iLAW, which is not the main player.
And in regards to you not reading Thai, ya no shit. Do you think that maybe the Thais know what's up in their own movement? Maybe a white person should be extra careful about judging an outside culture with limited knowledge?
And frankly, I've had many a fight and disagreement with Giles. But to make shit up about his family and then not bother to respond or apologize is absolutely shit. His family was not responsible for laws against communism.
And in regards to you not reading Thai, ya no shit. Do you think that maybe the Thais know what’s up in their own movement?
Yes, I'm sure Thai people understand what's going on their country better than I do. And I have found Thai sources both defending and opposing the ongoing protests. Thai people are not a monolith.
Maybe a white person should be extra careful about judging an outside culture with limited knowledge?
Not when my country conspires within their borders. Same goes for Syria, Hong Kong, Libya, Ukraine, etc.
The American Left failed the world throughout the 2010's for its inability to distinguish popular uprising from color revolution. When the same institutions which supported these coups support the Thai protest, that must set off alarm bells in the minds of every American communist.
I'd love it if my government wasn't funding regime change operations in Thailand.
His family was not responsible for laws against communism
I literally never said they were.
I said his family held power during a government which criminalized the CPT. The fact that Giles was a "communist" and protected throughout the Thaksin Shinawatra government, while the CPT was criminalized, speaks volumes.
which Giles’ family played a central role in.
Don't fucking backtrack from your original words, you reactionary.
The Marxist-Leninist party in Thailand (CPT) has been criminalized by both the current government & the previous government, which Giles’ family played a central role in.
Why manipulate my quote? We are the only ones this far into the thread. You are only lying to yourself. I stand by my statement 100%. His family held influential roles in governments which criminalized the CPT. That is an undeniable fact.
I never said his family was "responsible" for anti-communism laws. They were complicit in a government which criminalized the CPT. Their specific orientation towards the CPT require further investigation. But the fact that Giles talks down to the CPT when they are banned in Thailand is informative [1]
His family has nothing to do with the banning of the CPT. Go find me a source in them being responsible or gtfo. Yes, he's a Trot and takes positions different than another party, as Marxists can differentiation their position. I don't expect anyone here to 100% take the side of Mao or Sanders.
Yet here you are, slandering Giles yet saying nothing bad about LandDestroyer whom regularly. praises the monarchy and army.
His family has nothing to do with the banning of the CPT. Go find me a source in them being responsible or gtfo
Please, I'm begging you: read what I am saying.
I never said his family was “responsible” for anti-communism laws. They were complicit in a government which criminalized the CPT. Their specific orientation towards the CPT require further investigation. But the fact that Giles talks down to the CPT when they are banned in Thailand is informative.
Also, this isn't a matter of "taking a different position" than MLs. The CPT was literally criminalized under the same government which uplifted the Ungpakorn family to high-ranking positions. I cannot imagine being a communist in a country where their Communist Party is criminalized, and not making that a primary issue. The only time he references the CPT is to criticize them.
Yet here you are, slandering Giles yet saying nothing bad about LandDestroyer
Yes. I'm criticizing the academic with a well-connected family who's aligned with my country's interests on opposing the current government in Thailand. That is an issue which is relevant to me as a citizen of a country whose government wants to overthrow the Thai government and replace it with a client state. I don't find it worth my time to criticize a random blogger.
Source that his family was complicit?
The only time he references the CPT is to criticize them.
Absolutely untrue. Are you not bored of making shit up?
I don’t find it worth my time to criticize a random blogger.
Yet you buy into his analysis, while ignoring the views of multiple Thai communists whom I've sourced this discussion.
So CIA deems the reactionary anticommunist monarchy that currently reigns over Thailand isn't good enough?
Yes
Thialand (under the reactionary anticommunist Monarchy) has decided in it's material interest to move closer to China
And in doing so has started doing military exercises with China and become a partner in the BRI initiaitive
Thailand also started buying Chinese arms
The boys down in Langley have decided that they can get Thailand to pull out the BRI, disentangle from China and go back to buying US military hardware
CIA is playing both sides. CIA supports military and NED supports protests.
This isn’t the first time they have done something like this...
I am going to ask a bunch of stupid questions. Is there a source where I can read about just the composition of the protests. Is this mostly student led? Are there any examples of student led protests which have not been basically color revolutions? Are there any workers and peasants involved in this?
It seems ridiculous, but something about the protests seem off to me. They have the exact same aesthetics and similar tactics to the HK protests, and everyone seems way too well coordinated and equipped. Every time the US gets involved in a "pro democracy" protest they tend to adopt the same weird, reddity, westernized aesthetic (they're holding up the Hunger Games three-finger salutes FFS). It turns into a bunch of black-shirted young people holding up quotable signs in perfect English, no matter what country they're in. And I'm not saying Thailand's government is worth supporting - they're an absolute monarchy and the king is a total sleazebag - but they seem to have pretty normalized relations with China...
Sometimes this is different in countries with American influence or a large English speaking population, but when a protest's demands are "democracy" without ideology and their aesthetic appeals to western audiences, it's always a reason to at least be skeptical.
Like, remember when Overwatch characters were going to save Hong Kong :agony-limitless:
same aesthetics and similar tactics to the HK protests
petit bourgeois students :mao-aggro-shining:
Wait they went ML? I actually hadnt heard about that. I guess the last few pro democracy protests ive seen have just put a bad taste in my mouth but I'd be interested to learn more
Lottt of CIA fronts here comrade
https://www.ned.org/region/asia/thailand-2019/
The “Thai Poor Act” is not the fucking “Assembly of the Poor”
So In Land Destroyers article he says it's not the same name but he found a youtube channel with a similar name. So he puts a question mark over that one.
So you've "debunked" 1 out of the 3 organistations 2 of which are on NED/CIAs website
you disengenous right wing shit
Wew lad. Yup I'm right wing forehead
And iLAW gets most of its money from outside the NED.
Well I'm glad to hear ILAW is only partially funded by :cia: lol
Good example of why current communists should engage with theory and practices of the Mass Line. They have the feelings, but they don't have the language to describe their alienation.
According to an article by The Nation, iLAW was "established on May 24, 2014 and funded by foreign organisations." [1] This article was purged from The Nation's website between March 2020 and now.
Also, iLAW was founded by Sirikan Charoensiri. Charoensiri was awarded the US State Department's International Women of Courage Award. The award was given to her by Melania Trump lmao [2]
@JoeySteel, it's very "Right-wing" of you to oppose Melania's favorite activist.
According to Tony Cartalucci, iLAW was organized out of the US Embassy in Bangkok during the 2014 coup. [3] He claims their funding was previously listed on the NED's website, but it has since been purged. That would match the pattern I saw with The Nation, but I don't have the time to dig through Archive.org more right now.
I did not know Tony Cartalucci before today. His record shows that he was correctly identifying US regime change tactics in Syria, Hong Kong & Libya at a time where the US "Left" was tacitly supporting regime change. [4]
@ButtBidet if you actually have connections to communists in Thailand, you should agitate that US State Department infiltration in the protest movement must be addressed first and foremost.
Hong Kong, Ukraine, Libya, and countless others prove that there is no progressive move forward so long as it serves the interests of US imperialism. And right now, it seems the US State Department is the biggest mover.
I can't believe you still have no hesitation carrying water for Melania Trumps' favorite activist & a Right-wing regime change operation.
But I guess the Trump family and the Shinawatra family are nothing compared a "Right-wing blogger." They are just Right-wing oligarchs who shape the world we live in, perfectly acceptable allies.
There's nothing more to debate here. If your connections in Thailand want to ignore the degree to which this protest movement connects back to Thaksin Shinawatra, they are just going to repeat the situation in Hong Kong & embarrass themselves on the international stage.
I’ve done nothing but criticize them.
You just told me that centering US State Department infiltration in protest movements is "concern trolling." You have done everything but criticize them.
Meanwhile, please tell me where I have supported the Thai military or monarchy. I already called out the largest Thai capitalist, he just so happens to support the protests.
Yes. Some rando Westerner telling Thai activists, with all the problems that they have, what they need to center their shit on is concern trolling.
I've spent the past decade organizing against US regime change operations branded as "Left-wing protest movements."
If these Thai activists don't understand the strategy and tactics deployed in color revolutions, they will just carry water for the US State Department. It won't be the first time activists have done so.
And your source on “infiltration” is unabashedly fash.
The Nation and the US State Department's website are unabashedly fascist, I know. That's why their support of their protests is concerning me, and why I cited them.
Literally please go Google “richest in Thailand”. You’re not even in the top ten.
Google's list of "richest people in Thailand" has no bearing on the most powerful capitalists. Jimmy Lai, the largest capitalist in Hong Kong, is not publicly listed as the wealthiest person in Hong Kong either.
Would you actually like Marxist analysis of Thailand?
Sure, I'll read another Marxist analysis of Thailand.
When I speak the name Myanmar out loud how is it supposed to sound? I'm having trouble finding official pronunciations it's just a bunch of people arguing whether or not to call it burma or not.
I'm ignorant of it, but my left wing friends who know Myanmar refuse to call it Myanmar. Something about Myanmar being the name chosen by the military government.
Better than my left-wing friend who insisted to me that it is spelled Myanmar but pronounced Burma lol. Gonna have to own him on this one later
The way I've heard Aung San Suu Kyi pronounce it is as two syllables, myah-MAHR, with maybe a light nasally ng on the first syllable and not a lot of R sound at the end. Wikipedia seems to agree: [mjəmà]
After hearing that both MEE-ann-mahr and MAI-ann-mahr sound incredibly grating.
But I suppose it's the same as how everyone pronounces 東京 as TOKE-ee-oh instead of tou-kyou.
The first Splinter Cell game used the latter, so that should have been my clue that it absolutely wasn't that one lol
