Arguing with some hogs about it and not sure where I stand. Feel like it's a noble goal that should happen some day, but personally, if I had a kid I wouldn't do it because I'd fear they'd get bullied for it. Thoughts?
Bad idea. First, for most people gender identity is congruent with their body, and the chance they arent cis isnt very high. So you run a very high risk of traumatizing the poor kid. Second - external social pressures are too big, and you run a big risk of traumatizing your child. Make sure a child is raised to be open about this thing and to not think about "girls toys" and "boys toys" and bullshit like that.
Seriously, just use their anatomical gender, but don't force cultural norms on them and give them freedom to figure out if that gender fits or not. If they tell you it doesn't, respect it. It doesn't have to be any harder than that.
First, for most people gender identity is congruent with their body, and the chance they arent cis isnt very high. So you run a very high risk of traumatizing the poor kid. Second - external social pressures are too big, and you run a big risk of traumatizing your child.
I'm having trouble understanding this. How would, say, using gender neutral language to refer to a kid until they figure it out themself traumatize them?
First, for most people gender identity is congruent with their body, and the chance they arent cis isnt very high. So you run a very high risk of traumatizing the poor kid.
I don't think it would be traumatizing, but I do think it's important they understand that having a gender is normal. If they want to be a he or she, that's fine.
I'm wondering if Theybies would have any advantage over raising them as cis, while exposing them to transpositivity. Either way, you're creating an inertia for a certain gender expression, while providing an offramp if they don't like that identity.
Believe me, forcing someone to be something they are not is big bad and not cool. Raising a kid as a theyby is just that and just as cruel. Raising a kid with the idea of transpositivity is what you're looking for tho.
So you run a very high risk of traumatizing the poor kid.
too late for that, you already gave birth to the unfortunate sod
In an ideal, frictionless world this would probably be the correct thing to do, but I would probably focus more on simply avoiding pigeonholing a child into traditional gender roles than I would on their pronouns. It takes a while for children to learn speech (and some ND children don't). It takes a while for children to learn what sex is too aside from "you don't touch boys here, and you don't touch girls here or here."
Children ask a hell of a lot of questions though, so I assume that you'd have ample opportunities to introduce more nuance about sex and gender. In the meantime I would try to let them choose things like their toys, clothes, hairstyle, etc instead of simply showering macho toys on a kid because they have a penis, or dolls because they have a vagina. I think the most important thing is to give them agency and help them understand this stuff isn't predetermined.
This is definitely an "after the cultural revolution" thing to do. There's nothing that's going to traumatize kids using they/them pronouns until they decide inherently, but rather it would come from being a target for bullying in our current society. In the mean time, raising children without enforcing and indeed combating gender roles (kids are actually traumatized, trans and cis alike, by the social pressure to meet gender roles), and letting them know that being trans is a thing anyone can be from a young age.
I think its unfair to burden a child with being a "theybe" (if you want to call it that) unless you are a part of a community which normalizes the practice.
In the absence of such a community, I think the best thing to do is to try to avoid gendering the child as much as possible. Pick a gender neutral name (and favor use of name to pronoun), have gender neutral clothing, participate in wide variety of normally considered gendered activities, etc.
Just my two cents. Not an expert or anything though.
Edit: as I'm thinking about this more... Another thing is to also praise the child in a gender neutral way. If the child's sex is female, offer praise for their strength, etc. If child's sex is male, praise for their their gentleness, etc.
In the absence of such a community, I think the best thing to do is to try to avoid gendering the child as much as possible. Pick a gender neutral name (and favor use of name to pronoun), have gender neutral clothing, participate in wide variety of normally considered gendered activities, etc.
Is forcing "gender neutrality" on them really that different than just treating them as their assumed gender and giving them the freedom to decide otherwise? Either way you are forcing some kind of gender on them.
If you treat them with an assumed gender, are you really giving them that freedom?
Either way you are forcing some kind of gender on them
Can you explain what you mean by this? Letting a male child cook with you or taking them to dance lessons isn't forcing them to be female lol.
I'm referencing this more specifically:
Pick a gender neutral name (and favor use of name to pronoun), have gender neutral clothing
Treating them as some genderless entity is no better than assuming their gender at birth but giving them room to decide otherwise. This comments talks about it better than I can.
And there's a big difference between gender conformance (clothes, activities, and personality traits like you mentioned) and gender. Of course don't make your child conform to a gender, but that doesn't mean treating them as if they have no gender.
How is giving a child the name taylor forcing them to be a genderless entity? Or teaching them to throw a baseball and also take dance?
If they say "I don't like dance" then don't make them go lol.
If the child says that they are a girl, that's fine. I'm not saying you turn to her and tell her she isn't.
Children don't need their parents to tell them what their gender is - theyre pretty intuitive about that.
Or teaching them to throw a baseball and also take dance?
If they say “I don’t like dance” then don’t make them go lol.
Maybe you didn't see my edit, but again, these aren't gender. They are gender norms. One can easily break norms while still being cis, and you don't have to treat your child gender neutrally to allow them to do those things.
As for naming your child, it's inherently making an important decision for them no matter what. I don't see any more harm in giving someone assumed to be male a male name and leaving them free to decide if they want to change it than giving them a gender neutral name. Are we going to expect every single child to pick a new name later in life? Also most gender neutral names are just kinda meh IMO.
It's not like forcibly assigning a child's gender at birth is a neutral thing. If you get it wrong, the psychological damage it can cause is real. I say give the kid time to work it out themselves from the start but also give them strategies to cope with the bigoted world they will be confronted with, depending on your circumstances. It's not easy, but the drawbacks of not doing so shouldn't be ignored
I could imagine they/them pronouns being confusing for a child tbh. Like I use they/them but I don't think they're particularly good pronouns because it's easy to confuse them for just referring to multiple people. And of course, I don't know if replacing the rigid gender binary with no gender at all is any better for their development, especially when they would definitely be bullied mercilessly by both other kids and adults.
I don’t think they’re particularly good pronouns because it’s easy to confuse them for just referring to multiple people
The end state of the Cultural Revolution is We/They/Them/Their as mandatory singular pronouns.
Kids use they in the singular all the time and plenty of languages do just fine without pronouns at all. They're not gonna be any more confused than usual.
all language is confusing for children. they're new at it. don't worry though, they generally pick up quick.
Weird seeing all this pushback. Just call them a them until (or if) they say otherwise. Seems like a no-brainer to me. It's not really even weird. Using they as a singular pronoun has been common practice in the English-speaking world for like 600 years or something. Nobody's going to bat an eye 99+% of the time if you call your kid "they".
I think what's happening is the majority of parents assume their kids are cis, and most of the time they're right. Your average Chapo is cisgender, raised cisgender, and is happy with how they were raised (in regards to gender at least). Based on their personal experience, this isn't something they'd want.
As a child, I wasn't cognizant of choosing a gender. I didn't know about trans or alternate genders. I was taught I was a boy, and accepted that, and it turned out to be right. What seems controversial is "would the child respond similarly to this identity?" Would they feel pressured into remaining gender neutral or would they understand they have a choice?
I think some insight from trans comrades would help in understanding how gender decisions work in children, but an ultimate answer to the question would need to come from children raised in this manner.
I only want to speak for myself here but I definitely think having social acceptance in the form of trans-positive media, culture, and knowledgeable parents would've helped me. It's literally what got me to come out so recently--even just seeing how femboys are basically a meme now made me feel more comfortable in expressing myself.
But as a parent just a nudge here and there like "which do you like more?" And "which toys do you like?". Like if I ever have kids I'm going to explicitly ask them whether they want to wear dresses, shorts, skirts, of literally any presentation and design. Asking them if they want to wear shorts isn't enough, I want to signal to them that all of their choices are valid ones. And besides directly emphasizing that it's okay to change their mind, I'll indirectly emphasize that by asking them those same questions at various intervals when they're growing up.
To put it in g*mer terms: I want my kid to know they're in a character creator basically up until puberty, and that they're the ones in control of the options. I might pick a few characteristics to start, but I'll get around that by making it clear they can change those traits too.
I think if this all goes well, my child won't feel traumatized if the default setting are cis, because they'll also see all the knobs and buttons in the UI, and examples from people around them showing what you can make of yourself.
Somewhere in the future, I think this might make the issue of gendered language and products moot. Because if my child with female genitals wants to be known as a boy or a person but still wear dresses or do whatever, then haven't we basically accomplished our goal?
it's good. people who talk about "oooh that's so cruel to the child they'll be bullied for their whole life if you don't give them a gender" are doing that pissneck lib thing where you pretend your own prejudices and weird hangups actually are just others'.
It seems like this isn’t just about the pronouns. You can still call your child a she or he and raise them agender, since gender is a thing one develops into. Raising your kid differently? Child abuse. But remember that trans kids often face huge pushback from adults who feel that they must fit a certain mold, even with early signs of gender-non conformity.
They/thems have told me feeling that way. Since birth, it was said they wanted to be raised agender. We rly don’t have to wait til the revolution, we can support trans kids now.
I don’t really plan to have kids but if I were, I’d do this. But less of a focus on gender. Shop in the boys and girls clothes sections. Buy toys of all kinds. Fight against gender roles when you overhear them being said around your kid, teach them they can be whatever they want. Sure they made be bullied for it but I’d rather my kid have a good relationship with gender than hide themself I guess, if that makes sense. It’s also just better for kids in general to be raised in a gender-neutral way.
If we're making radical suggestions for a future society I'd suggest just doing away with gendered pronouns altogether. Just have one pronoun for everyone.
Imagine if there were racial pronouns and then biracial people had to pick one or come up with race neutral pronouns. Wouldn't that be silly and unnecessarily complicated? There's no need to specify a person's ethnicity every time you talk about them, let alone codify it into language, and it should be the same for gender imo.
