The Shidaowan nuclear power plant, which features the world's first fourth-generation reactor, started commercial operations on December 6, China National Nuclear Corporation (CNNC), one of the project's developers, said.
"China's independently developed high-temperature gas-cooled reactor demonstrator commenced commercial operation," CNNC said in a statement.
"It signifies that China has completed the world's first commercially operational modular nuclear power plant with fourth-generation nuclear technology, marking the transition of fourth-generation nuclear technology from experiments to the commercial market."
Generation IV reactors are considered safer and more efficient.
"The tests confirmed that commercial-scale reactors could be cooled down naturally without emergency core cooling systems for the first time in the world. It is the so-called inherently safe reactor," Tsinghua University, one of the joint developers of the reactor, said.
Such reactors can produce heat, electricity, and hydrogen and would help China and the world "become carbon neutral," Zhang Zuoyi, dean of the Tsinghua University Institute of Nuclear and New Energy Technology and chief designer of the Shidaowan reactor project, told South China Morning Post.
The fourth-generation reactor in operation now puts China "ahead of other countries in terms of nuclear technology research and development," Francois Morin, China director of industry group World Nuclear Association, told The Wall Street Journal.
According to Morin, Western countries are set to launch their fourth-generation nuclear reactors only in the early 2030s.
David Fishman, a China-based senior manager at energy consulting firm Lantau Group, told the Journal that "China is arguably peerless in actually building and commercializing next-generation nuclear power technology."
Many countries in the West, with the notable exception of Germany, have recognized that nuclear power generation would help them achieve net-zero emission goals.
At the COP28 climate summit currently underway in Dubai, the United States and 21 other countries pledged to triple nuclear energy capacity by 2050, saying incorporating more nuclear power in their energy mix is critical for achieving their net zero goals in the coming decades.
The United States, alongside Britain, France, Canada, Sweden, South Korea, Ghana, and the United Arab Emirates (UAE), among others, signed the declaration at the COP28 climate summit.
"The Declaration recognizes the key role of nuclear energy in achieving global net-zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050 and keeping the 1.5-degree Celsius goal within reach," the U.S. Department of State said.
China is not a signatory to that declaration, but it aims to develop more nuclear energy capacities to reduce emissions as its demand for electricity rises. 
As of 2020, nuclear energy accounted for 5% of China's generation mix, which continued to be dominated by coal, per data from the World Nuclear Association.
By 2035, nuclear energy is expected to make up 10% of the electricity generation mix and 18% by 2060, Chinese media quoted the China Nuclear Energy Association (CNEA) as saying earlier this year.
As of September 2023, China had 55 nuclear power units in operation with a combined installed capacity of 57 GW, and 24 units under construction with a total installed capacity of 27.8 GW, Xinhua quoted CNEA official Wang Binghua as saying. By 2060, that capacity is expected to jump to 400 GW, the official said.
China is also expected to approve six to eight nuclear power units each year "within the foreseeable future."
It's fake. It doesn't work. They skipped safety procedures. It's not efficient anyways. It's not scalable. It wouldn't work without state funding. State funding is the reason it doesn't work. Social credit score.
Can't wait for r/science and r/China to be suddenly populated by Nuclear physicists who can vaguely gesture at this particular model being completely unsafe and just an inefficient money pit made for the unscrupulous Chinese to steal more money and how actually Western stagnation is the best model for reliable and cheap energy
sighs to be fair, this is 1984 coded and a major 🚩YIKES 🚩
China YTA and UR FIRED! XD
uh uh uh the Asiatic brainpan does not have space to uh imagine atomic particles! here's why it's better to leverage private industry to create profit... I mean energy!
We joke about this, but people in real positions of decision-making power actually believe this kind of skull caliper shit about how Asians aren't capable of the same level of creative thought as Americans. A lot of people literally can't imagine that the Chinese are developing this tech on their own rather than engaging in industrial espionage.
Many countries in the West, with the notable exception of Germany, have recognized that nuclear power generation would help them achieve net-zero emission goals.
i live in the dumbest country on the planet 
Germany actually had a similar reactor in the 80s lol
We need renewables!
Germany: ok, start burning charcoal
So nuclear reactors - like all thermal power plants - already produce heat that can't be further turned into electricity. This is sometimes used to heat cities (district heating). For instance, Haiyang Nuclear Power Plant heats 200,000 homes. The only way to produce hydrogen in a sustainable manner is through electrolysis. This requires a boatload of electricity and is the reason why most hydrogen is produced from hydrocarbons instead. However, electrolysis can be done more efficiently at higher temperatures. High temperature nuclear reactors such as this one can use their waste heat and electricity in order to produce relatively cheaper green hydrogen. Only a few high temperature gas cooled reactors have been built, and zero very high temperature ones (over 750°C). I think this is the only currently operating full-scale commercial one (as opposed to research).
Finally, I think this design is suitable for use in inland China. IIRC after Fukushima they canceled inland plants until improved designs were ready.
excess heat could also be used for seawater desalination if you need the drinking water
Maybe we could refine the way we do hydrogen separation than making exclusion zone roulette boxes? Surely there are better ways if the research is put into it.
We could cover a shit ton of land and water in wind turbines and solar panels and use that electricity for less efficient electrolysis, but unfortunately those cause a ton of death as well as create exclusion zones too.
How would that heat be transferred? Would they just make steam and pump it via pipes?
According to Morin, Western countries are set to launch their fourth-generation nuclear reactors only in the early 2030s.
I remember back in the late '00s when I was told HSR would be here in the '20s. This shit is never going to happen. We're simply going to outsource everything to China and let them take care of it, while periodically waging our fists and insisting we'll start a war with them if they don't get in line.
I have a feeling that in China they somehow are able to push through the permitting issues and environmental reviews (if they have any) that have made new nuclear plants in the US at least so economically difficult that no one wants to back them. Just something about that system of governance that makes projects like this happen...can't quite put my finger on it. Wait, you're saying that they probably don't have a million interested parties that can stop the project at any part of the development? Or maybe the dissent just...doesn't matter?
Maybe, just maybe, China is actually governed by people that care for the interests of their citizens. Maybe that's the thing? Maybe our system of government isn't this perfect, supreme institution, and maybe better things are possible?
Also the suggestion that China can somehow ignore dissent is laughable. And the implication that dissent is listened to elsewhere even moreso.If dissent mattered in the west, if public will mattered here, why does the us not have public healthcare? Why is the surveillance state present? Why does policy with broad appeal not get put into legislation? Why does strikes, protests and riots get met with force, repression, arrests and laws making such actions harder, rather than action on what the dissenters want?
If dissent didn't matter in China, why is it that corruption scandals time and again result in thorough investigations of officials, and subsequent firings? Why is China constantly investing in public infrastructure? Why did china change it's COVID policy, when the majority opinion shifted to wanting it changed? Why does the government hold such high approval, according to independent UN observers?
investigations of officials, and subsequent firings?
Sometimes even literally firings
Show
Where is your spirit of entrepreneurship???
On a side note, i can never remember how do you write that word in english, though it's almost as bad in polish, being "przedsiębiorczość"
how do you write that word in english
Bourgeoisie
any other english word with more than two syllables
https://pnhp.org/news/gilens-and-page-average-citizens-have-little-impact-on-public-policy/
When the preferences of economic elites and the stands of organized interest groups are controlled for, the preferences of the average American appear to have only a minuscule, near-zero, statistically non-significant impact upon public policy.
In the United States, our findings indicate, the majority does not rule — at least not in the causal sense of actually determining policy outcomes. When a majority of citizens disagrees with economic elites and/or with organized interests, they generally lose. Moreover, because of the strong status quo bias built into the U.S. political system, even when fairly large majorities of Americans favor policy change, they generally do not get it.
According to Morin, Western countries are set to launch their fourth-generation nuclear reactors only in the early 2030s.
We're already at the point where China is almost a decade ahead in some high tech sectors. That gap doesn't look like it's going to start narrowing any time soon.
I watch videos from on YouTube from the Walk East channel and it makes me feel like the US is a rural backwater.
Do you all know any good channels for going around the US that aren't reaction bait like Cash Jordan / wranglerstar strolling Portland while uttering nonsense?
This channel is pretty good, but it's heavily focused on NYC and its surrounding neighborhoods. He does venture out to other cities though, both in the US and abroad. He also does bike rides which is why I started watching it to get a feel for the routes before I rode them.
that's wise of you idk why i just went by trial and error with my life at stake
Two safety demonstration tests were conducted on the two reactor modules, each at a power of 200MWt, on August 13 and September 1, respectively. The normal energy transfer driven by power was stopped during the tests. The measured nuclear power and temperatures within the different reactor structures, described how the reactors were naturally cooled down, without human intervention or emergency core cooling systems. The tests confirmed that commercial-scale reactors could be cooled down naturally without emergency core cooling systems for the first time in the world. It is the so-called inherently safe reactor.
The major purpose of HTR-PM is to co-generate high temperature steam up to 500℃ and electricity. It is currently cost-effective in the Chinese market to supply steam and electricity for the petrochemical industry to substitute the burning of natural gas and coal.
I can't wait for the Peter Zeihan video about how this means that China is going to collapse and starve next year
the sad part is that even with these huge accomplishments, we still can't save the planet
I can totally see this being a headline in 2030. People say 'better dead than red' and they mean it. Human extinction is totally worth it as long as they never have to stop everything going their way.
I worked on nuke reactors. I left it after I saw the carelessness and mountains of bullshit in the community. There is no such thing as a safe nuke reactor. I don't care how many times they claim to have redesigned the unsinkable Titanic and THIS time, surely they worked out all the kinks. Fukushima was supposed to have been the anti Chernobyl with the nEgAtIvE coefficent of reactivity. How'd that work out? Be it nature, human error, or something out of their control that they thought would never happen. All it takes is one.
Every nuke reactor built is rolling the dice. Go put he money in fusion. At least when that blows it's not going to be a multi generational exclusion zone or needing to irradiate the ocean where your food supply grows.
Wasn't China one of the more vocal, and rightfully so, critics of dumping all that radioactive slop where their waterways were?
But I know I'm talking to a
but I get upset with the arrogance of thinking adding more of those loaded guns is some sort of celebration.Every energy source comes with deaths. Nuclear ends up being on the safer end of the scale despite all the hype they get when something goes wrong.
I'm pretty sure solar kills more people than nuclear. There's been a grand total of 10k deaths from nuclear energy in 70 years despite hundreds of commercial reactors being built and operated, it's the definition of a rounding error.
Of directly provable deaths, yes. In terms of casualties / long-term illness caused, not even close.
I don't think so - https://ourworldindata.org/safest-sources-of-energy
Wasn't China one of the more vocal, and rightfully so, critics of dumping all that radioactive slop where their waterways were?
If you're talking about the (heavily-diluted) water tanks from Fukushima being dumped into the ocean, the levels were safe and imo China was wrong.
Don’t worry guys, I’ll dilute all that poison I’m putting in the environment!
Nuclear nerds really going off
Have you read anything about the numbers? And what the material was? Hardly the "nuclear slop" mentioned above. It's a lower concentration than was discharged during the plant's decades long operation, lower than other places in the world, and much lower than the IAEA's limit. You can say the danger isn't fully known, but it's likely more dangerous in high concentration sitting in a tank waiting for an accident. Also, as silly as it sounds, dilution is the solution to (some) pollution.
You can't treat all sources of radiation as interchangeable. In normal operation, coolant water is made radioactive via conversion of hydrogen to tritium, which has a low half life and won't bioaccumulate. The radioactive heavy metal isotopes released after the disaster has a long half-life and is known to bioaccumulate in fish. There's already been Japanese studies showing bioaccumulation in fresh water fish[1]. If you dump it in the ocean there's no guarantee that the heavy metals will disperse evenly instead of just sinking in the immediate area surrounding your coast.
[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4159481/
That's fine. They say the stuff they're releasing contains only tritium though, not the heavier stuff.
Yes, predictions about something, especially what intensity of natural disaster something can withstand, are more likely to be wrong than a current measurement of something verifiable (and under scrutiny) by others. That's the nature of predictions. That the weather service can't give the precise path of the hurricane (even if they've claimed to) doesn't mean I need doubt the current wind speed they report. Believe what you like about this situation. I find it more likely the IAEA has it right.
Do you wear a hazmat suit when passing by the bananas at the grocery store?
It's not like seafood is known to accumulate heavy minerals in the ocean or anything. There's no way any of those radioactive heavy minerals would accumulate in the fish we eat.
yeah that comment makes sense and totally justifies dumping tons of diluted poison in the environment, you win bro
Didn't expect to see stray weeb wastewater apologia here.
All these Reddit "science understanders" can't comprehend nuclear by-products aren't just tritium alone. FFS, criticism denouncing TEPCO's discharge plan was literally published in Nikkei Japan and yet this is just apparently a "China beefing" thing.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/It-is-not-too-late-for-Japan-to-change-course-on-Fukushima-water
I won't argue the technical aspects (because I don't know them offhand) but Fukushima was built and commissioned before Chernobyl. The way you talk about it above seems to imply Fukushima was designed in a way that corrects some design flaw of Chernobyl.
Go put he money in fusion. At least when that blows it's not going to be a multi generational exclusion zone or needing to irradiate the ocean where your food supply grows.
Sadly, the reaction chamber of fusion reactors is radioactive. There isn't really any design that doesn't either produce radioactive material from reactions in the containment chamber or require radioactive intermediates to sustain the fusion reaction
Aneutronic fusion is a thing and a great alternative if we invent a time machine to the 23rd century
So are you saying that in your opinion, all nuclear reactors, which includes this one developed by this team of researchers and engineers, are unsafe because you've seen the careless disposition of other people in the workplace(s) that you worked in? What exactly about this qualifies you to make all the other claims you're making?
But, why has no one pointed out the obvious chauvinism or overt racism in your comment? You are saying that no nuclear reactor designed thus far has been safe, and therefore this one made in China must also be unsafe, or that these scientists and engineers in China must be lying or over hyping the claims they are making. Concerning the technical limitations you are trying to gesture at, you can only come to the conclusion you are coming to if you think that there is something about China, or Chinese people, that forbids it from doing science and engineering better than wherever you come from. Concerning the only thing of substance you make a claim of knowledge for, you are saying that there is something about China or Chinese workers that forbids them from actually giving a fuck about their jobs as nuclear reactor technicians, scientists, and engineers, such that they strictly could not design safer processes or conduct themselves in an appropriately professional way better than wherever you come from.
Moreover, I don't really understand why you think other people should listen to your perspective on the matter when you have put basically 0 effort within your comment to give any real justification. Essentially you are saying "I worked with these things, so just simply trust me."
chauvinism or overt racism in your comment
I reject that framing. What I said was pointing out China's legitimate concern for nuclear contamination in their waters, near waters, and the waters of the world which effect us all - namely the Pacific ocean. They clearly understand the risks associated with these plants, and they still build them. This is not racism, or jealousy, or some form of pvert nationalsim. This is critism of a risk assesment.
I don't want
or anyone else building these roulette machines either. This has nothing to do with "China bad." No nation, engineering firm, or corporation is going to book smart out Murphy's Law. They rolled that dice with Fukushima thinking what happened would never happen or the risks were too remote. It is simply a risk calculation that has played out multiple times in my life already, and even working / operating the reactors only made me see those risks more clearly to the point I switched careers. The industry itself is poisioned and deluded. Humans should move on from these devices. That is my random internet person assement.There is no need to get into a personal accusatory slander or sea lioning troll fest over this.
I reject that framing.
I mean you can reject it all you want, it doesn't change anything about what you actually said. I believe you when you say that you are "legitimately concerned about nuclear contamination..." in waterways and that you believe they are making a wrong risk assessment. But what you have done is lumped all nuclear fission energy sources into one category and then went "well all those scientists and engineers think this thing is safe, but I'm built different and I know they're wrong." You should seriously investigate why you think this is a rational method of analysis, or from what place this superior understanding you have comes from.
... these **roulette ** machines....
Things don't just randomly happen and it is simply not materialist, in the mechanical materialist sense, to discuss these events in this way, moreover it is just not productive. You have a N = 0 sample size for this reactor, which makes this statement even more absurd. Furthermore, I shouldn't have to tell you how unrigorous or unscientific lumping in things in some general and vague way to attack them is. This is a specific reactor with a specific design, iterating on other designs. You don't need to be on the R&D team for this reactor to be able to say "well from what we have today, these reactors would need to be improved in such and such way if we want to deem them safe...". I'm not even an expert in my academic field and even I do this sort of thing when reading papers in my field.
Another absurd statement is this next one:
No nation, engineering firm, or corporation is going to book smart out Murphy's Law.
Murphy's Law states that if anything can happen it will happen. It doesn't work in the converse direction. So if it is simply not possible for this reactor to melt down then Murphy's Law doesn't magically make this happen. You don't weigh up ways in which any of the modern reactors can fail and this is the crux of why I'm frustrated about reading your post.
Essentially I want you to justify these things your saying both because I don't know how nuclear reactors work, and you seemingly want us to believe that you do, since you start off the original post trying to build your credibility. So use that to talk about this reactor from the perspective of how it is engineered or the theory surrounding this reactor and/or other designs similar to it or in the modern era. Otherwise you are using this simply as a cudgel to attack the work these people have done, and I cannot understand why you'd do this unless you think think that you simply just know better than these people, which I'm sorry to have to explain, is the criterion for what defines chauvinist thinking.
There is no need to get into a personal accusatory slander or sea lioning troll fest over this.
I have nothing against you personally. Calling out liberalism and reactionary thought is important to me, so I spend the time doing it when [I think] I see it and have the time to talk. I don't really appreciate the attempt to belittle my concern over the reactionary content of your post as "accusatory slander" or a "sea lioning troll fest" and I think that speaks more to your sense of self-importance to think that you cannot be prone to reactionary thinking. For what it's worth, I hope you'd call me out if I was being chauvinist or reactionary and I'd hope I have the perspective needed to learn from it.
I mean the alternative is the literal and guaranteed disruption of the planet's ability to sustain human civilization. It would be nice if we could magic up enough energy to meet society's demands or return to monke without hundreds of millions starving to death, but that's not a real option.
If there's arguments that solar is better, sure, I'm sympathetic to those. I can understand if nuclear technology is not safe enough yet for widespread use. I think that arguments about nuclear being inherently unsafe are not convincing, though. As long as each reactor is safer than the last, we can minimize that inherent unsafeness. To take an example from programming: the only bug-free program you'll ever write is a hello world program. Introducing complexity naturally increases the amount of unaccounted for states. Cutting-edge medical technology is invariably going to have an astronomical amount of unaccounted for states and the bugs that come with them. That doesn't mean computing has nothing to offer medicine, only that its use must be weighed against alternatives. Fusion might be less inherently unsafe but AFAIK it's not on the table right now, and we need energy today. China's investing in nuclear technology, but it hasn't been neglecting wind and solar, either. Putting feelers around each solution just seems like the no-brainer thing to do.
At least when that blows it's not going to be a multi generational exclusion zone or needing to irradiate the ocean where your food supply grows.
I mean we're not fusing helium 3 anytime in the next 50 years, fusion will still be very radioactive
I agree with most of your points but I have to ask. Were you operating reactors in an organization known for crashing said reactors into underwater mountains in the SCS.
I agree. Given the waste, issues of radioactivity, relying on limited resource, real dangers of meltdown and long time to build, I still question why any nation is pursuing nuclear energy anyway.
Solar power, even with energy storage costs, matches or exceeds nuclear in most cases, is significantly easier to build and is improving in efficiency yearly. I'm confused what the advantages of nuclear are these days.
One of the appeals to investors in freeish market economies is that - due to the massive capex of these projects - the state will subsidize risks/losses instead of it being passed on to the investors. That's the only way to get companies to agree to build and manage these plants.
An appeal for China might be that these things take forever to build and they recognize a future is coming where FF supply will crash and they need to get these upper before then if they want to minimize the harm to their grid.
I can't find a solid answer on this, but does anyone know if these fourth-gen reactors still require cooling ponds? From what I can find it looks like they do. I ask because another downside of nuclear plants, as demonstrated in France this year, is that they can't operate when the cooling ponds get too hot. Extreme heat events are becoming more common, and they can cause reactors to go offline at the same time as grid demand is highest due to consumption for HVAC/refrigeration.
stay winning, PRC
The planet will survive, but at what cost?
